View Full Version : first time gun builder, is a budget bcg or barrel worth it?
so i'm in the process of building my first AR...looking into the upper parts category. as of now, at the current stage of my life, i don't make it to the range as much as i want to. i also lack the funds to shoot thousands of rounds each time i go out. so for now, the probability of me shooting out a barrel, or wearing out a bcg...so in your opinions, what are the benefits of a $200 bolt carrier group vs a $100 or less bcg?
as far as the barrel goes, i'm finding it "cheaper" to buy an assembled upper from aero than it is to buy all the parts separate and assembling them myself (which is sad, because i really enjoyed assembling the lower and want to do an upper now) am i sacrificing quality and accuracy for going a cheaper route?
In this market, most BCG's are hovering around the $100 range. Even Colt/BCM ones are in the $150 range.
Since you've already stated that you don't make it to the range often, and lack the funds to shoot thousands of rounds, I would suggest the best carrier you can afford. Are there specific ones you're looking at? If you go with the Aero Factory Upper, I believe they are saving a sale on their carriers. $90ish for a Nitride one.
Now, with all that said, you should just go with the factory Aero Upper since the lack of funds likely means you don't have the proper tools to put together an upper. Buying the tools for an upper is usually only worth it if you plan to put together multiple uppers. Doesn't sound like you're there at this point.
mustangfreek
5 May 2017, 18:58
^^ spot on.
X2 on a aero upper and decent bcg and save the rest for ammo and mags and go out and shoot..[:D]
Since you outted yourself as a lefty on another thread, Stag Arms has a sale on their NiB lefty BCG for $154. Add a CMT UPUR-1LH from Rainier arms for $151, and you're well on your way to nice lefty rifle. I don't believe you need to worry about barrels with ambi chamfered barrel extensions. I have a standard barrel on one of my rifles, and have never experienced a problem. If you don't want to tool up, or know someone with tools to help, I think you'd do fine with a Stag Model 3HL with Plus Package and bolt upgrade (1:7 barrel with a HP/MP tested bolt). That will run you $570. The nice thing about the 3HL, if you want to go for a free float hand guard in the future, all you have to do is loosen the railed gas block, and not worry about removing the pins from FSB. Stag really presses them in.
BCG and barrel are the heart and sole of the platform, not a place to cut corners in my opinion.
Since you outted yourself as a lefty on another thread, Stag Arms has a sale on their NiB lefty BCG for $154. Add a CMT UPUR-1LH from Rainier arms for $151, and you're well on your way to nice lefty rifle. I don't believe you need to worry about barrels with ambi chamfered barrel extensions. I have a standard barrel on one of my rifles, and have never experienced a problem. If you don't want to tool up, or know someone with tools to help, I think you'd do fine with a Stag Model 3HL with Plus Package and bolt upgrade (1:7 barrel with a HP/MP tested bolt). That will run you $570. The nice thing about the 3HL, if you want to go for a free float hand guard in the future, all you have to do is loosen the railed gas block, and not worry about removing the pins from FSB. Stag really presses them in.
yeah, i've looked into stag, but right now EVERYTHING left handed is out of stock. (at least the assembled stuff) but i really don't have a problem shooting a right handed rifle left handed. (unless it's bolt action). i think i'm starting to adapt to the right handed world. haha.
thanks for the input guys.
Unless you're shooting suppressed, and have multiple uppers/guns I'd stay away from LH uppers. Proprietary parts, and no real benefit unless you're shooting with a can.
You stated that your a first time builder, I can appreciate that, we all were, at one time or another. But it's my firm belief that building an AR is not really a "budget" proposition.
What I really mean by that is, that you can shop for comparable components, and get the best deal you can on each, but even if you buy the cheapest (differs from "budget") stuff you can find, you could probably find a nice off the shelf rifles that will be less expensive than a "budget" build.
I've seen so many "budget" builds literally fall apart at the range. Actually within the last month, I witnessed one just eat itself, although I think a lot of that was a lack of skills in building it.
The bottom line is, you don't have to have the most expensive of everything, but get the best that you can within your budget. There are always exceptions to everything, but on average, if you buy everything out of the bottom of the barrel, you can still find a nicer rifle at your gun dealer for the same or less.
You mentioned that what I interpreted as "you can't afford to shoot a lot" [quotes mine], due to ammo costs, thousands of rounds etc..that you can get away with a cheaper weapon. No. That cheap weapon can fall apart in way less than "thousands of rounds". Plus you have to consider if you're going to be using Optics. A decent optic can go from $400 - to $3K.
I would either wait until I was more comfortable with my budget, or sock away a "windfall" such as a tax refund or something, rather than shopping the 'net for the cheapest thing you can find. Searching for a "deal" on parts is a no-brainer, and you don't have to spend thousands for occasional plinkingl. But I would think it over, and break out the calculator and figure out what your going to get vs. what you spend. You can also "upgrade" a quality off the shelf rifle, as you can afford it.
Whatever you choose, good luck.
FT[:D]
One option you may want to consider is either a Aero Precision OEM or Colt OEM. Pretty much complete rifles that allows you to pick your furniture to finish with. And very affordable without being budget, about $530 to $664.
3278
http://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/oem-mid-length-16-rifle-prod81838.aspx
https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/2680/colt_le6920-oem2_car_556_16_no_furnmt
Would be cool to get the Colt OEM for $664, then pay $200 for a tax stamp. When your stamp comes back have the barrel cut to 10.3" and re-threaded for around $70. Will probably need to be to have the gas port done and a new buffer also, but makes for a really affordable Colt SBR.[BD]
Here's a great buy on a top notch upper from a very good member here:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?10086-14-5-quot-upper&p=149740#post149740
Combined with this complete lower for $324 and you would have a top notch rifle at a great price.
https://www.rainierarms.com/bcm-lower-group-no-stock
Would be cool to get the Colt OEM for $664, then pay $200 for a tax stamp. When your stamp comes back have the barrel cut to 10.3" and re-threaded for around $70. Makes for a really affordable Colt SBR.[BD]
Funny you mention that. I bought a Colt OEM1 from G&R Tactical. Just got the upper back after getting it cut down to 10.3"
Funny you mention that. I bought a Colt OEM1 from G&R Tactical. Just got the upper back after getting it cut down to 10.3"
Who did your work, UW? Got pics in another thread?
BoilerUp
6 May 2017, 08:33
As has been said, the barrel is the heart of the rifle. That said, Ballistic Advantage barrels, as used by Aero Precision, are a very good value and very reasonable choice for most recreational shooters.
Anything above about $150 on a BCG (Colt, Daniel Defense, BCM) doesn't really you buy anything other than perhaps some bling or brand bragging rights. I'll spend a few extra bucks on nitride or NiB just to make cleaning go a bit easier and quicker. If I had to buy a BCG today, I'd probably order this Fail Zero for $120 (http://www.righttobear.com/failzero-m16-full-auto-exo-bolt-carrier-group-p/fz-01428.htm). If you come across a specific item that you have questions on, just post here and I'm sure someone can chime in.
If you go with a factory Aero upper, keep in mind that their M4E1 uppers are limited in handguard selection to the wide BAR format. They are a great setup and very simple to assemble, but somewhat limiting.
Who did your work, UW? Got pics in another thread?
I was actually going to start a thread in the build section about it.
Stay tuned.
alamo5000
6 May 2017, 20:46
so i'm in the process of building my first AR...looking into the upper parts category. as of now, at the current stage of my life, i don't make it to the range as much as i want to. i also lack the funds to shoot thousands of rounds each time i go out. so for now, the probability of me shooting out a barrel, or wearing out a bcg...so in your opinions, what are the benefits of a $200 bolt carrier group vs a $100 or less bcg?
as far as the barrel goes, i'm finding it "cheaper" to buy an assembled upper from aero than it is to buy all the parts separate and assembling them myself (which is sad, because i really enjoyed assembling the lower and want to do an upper now) am i sacrificing quality and accuracy for going a cheaper route?
I have my own feelings and opinions that in ways mimic what you've been hearing here. First off there is nothing wrong with building if that's what you really want to do. Everything has pros and cons to it. I will concentrate my opinions on the 'build' side because that is what I did (with some help and lots of input from others here).
Basically if you have a specific plan, goal, mission, or configuration in mind--I am on the build side. Keep in mind I derived just as much enjoyment from building the rifle as I get from shooting it. If this sounds like you then don't be scared off of building regardless of how much you shoot on a day to day basis.
I am in this for the sport of it. I am not a cop, warrior, special operator, or any of that stuff. I get my jollies off of learning from others and then seeing that knowledge being put into use. For me, building was part of the hobby. Yes you will probably need some special tools but that's not the end of the world.
Furthering the idea of 'concept' for a rifle you have to decide on a concept. For example I have one that is more of an SPR type that is easily sub MOA and I can ding plates out to 800 yards with it. That one is shot with a bipod, hand loaded match ammo, and all that stuff 99% of the time. The other one I have is a 10.5 SBR and I am not concerned so much with tiny little groups with it. Two ARs with two entirely different purposes behind them.
For building a general back yard plinker you can get good quality BCG for $120 bucks or so. I bought one from Rainier Arms, one from Griffin Armament, and another from Cross Machine Tool. As for barrels...consider it as a 'wear out part' sort of like wind shield wiper blades, but a decent barrel for general use won't be that much. Odds are you won't be shooting full auto fire and all that and you probably won't be reloading thousands of rounds of match grade ammo so that opens up a ton of possibilities barrel wise. For $150 to $200 you can get a good barrel that will fit your needs perfectly. That said with a 'normal' use without doing tons of mag dumps and long heat driven sessions you can get up to or more than 15,000 rounds out of a 'decent' budget barrel. If you go shooting a couple hundred rounds here or there it could be more. Long story short you don't need to worry so much about shooting out a barrel.
Whatever you choose to do, I say stick with things that have a proven record. Especially barrels. The ultra cheap knock off stuff might not be stress relieved or might not even be concentric to start with and yes you will get a cheap barrel but then your barrel heats up and your shots start walking all over the place.
Long story short if you enjoy thinking through a build and learning about stuff by all means do it. I took that route and I am 110% glad that I did. I took my time and learned as I went and it was great. If you don't have patience or inclination to learn about choices about seemingly small things and just want to 'get it done' then buying is a fantastic option too. No right or wrong answers.
Yeah my post wasn't in the ballpark of that.
Yeah my post wasn't in the ballpark of that.
You gotta keep practicing to reach expert level.
Your comment had me LOLing in a quiet room.
ok i think i've got my barrel picked out. but what have people heard about aim surplus bcg's? they've got budget nitride https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAIMBCGN3BDG&name=AIM+AR%2fM16+.223%2f5.56+Nitride+9310+MPI+Bol t+Carrier+Group&search=bcg and budget NiB https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAIMBCGNIBBDG&name=AIM+AR%2fM16+.223%2f5.56+NiB+9310+MPI+Bolt+Ca rrier+Group&search=bcg for under $100.
thoughts? or not worth my time.
Dstrbdmedic167
7 May 2017, 16:14
Pyzik has a few that I don't think he's had any issues with. Others can chime in.
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i also found this "nickel boron" coated "enhanced" bcg that i was looking for input on. doesn't really look coated to me, but i don't really know what i'm looking for. http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-ar-15-m16-nickel-boron-m16-style-enhanced-m16-style-bolt-carrier-group-bcg-223-5-56/
i also found this "nickel boron" coated "enhanced" bcg that i was looking for input on. doesn't really look coated to me, but i don't really know what i'm looking for. http://www.surplusammo.com/saa-ar-15-m16-nickel-boron-m16-style-enhanced-m16-style-bolt-carrier-group-bcg-223-5-56/
SAA is garbage.
Wait till the Aero Nitride is back in stock:
https://aeroprecisionusa.com/ar15-556-bolt-carrier-group-complete-black-nitride.html
SAA is garbage.
Wait till the Aero Nitride is back in stock:
https://aeroprecisionusa.com/ar15-556-bolt-carrier-group-complete-black-nitride.html
thanks man. this is what i was hoping for when i came here. i appreciate the help. and yeah, i was gonna do the aero nitride for sure if i ended up getting the entire aero upper...but then i saw that it was out of stock. hopefully they have them back by memorial day. i should have the money by then. haha.
something else i don't understand...maybe it's just marketing, maybe it's supply and demand (i'm not an economist by any means, so i have no idea with these kinds of things) but why is one barrel (say, the ballistic advantage 16" middy gov't profile barrel) $165 one on their own website, but if i go to cheaperthandirt it's $115? why wouldn't the manufacturer have it cheaper? there's not middle man.
as i'm typing this i wonder if cheaperthandirt gets a discount if they buy barrels in bulk, but the only thing i think is that cheaperthandirt is getting the "factory rejects" or "blems" that BA doesn't want to sell firsthand...
BoilerUp
7 May 2017, 18:30
something else i don't understand...maybe it's just marketing, maybe it's supply and demand (i'm not an economist by any means, so i have no idea with these kinds of things) but why is one barrel (say, the ballistic advantage 16" middy gov't profile barrel) $165 one on their own website, but if i go to cheaperthandirt it's $115? why wouldn't the manufacturer have it cheaper? there's not middle man.
as i'm typing this i wonder if cheaperthandirt gets a discount if they buy barrels in bulk, but the only thing i think is that cheaperthandirt is getting the "factory rejects" or "blems" that BA doesn't want to sell firsthand...
If a manufacturer always had the best price on their website they would quickly find that no one else wants to stock / carry their line. There are a few manufacturers that chose to be their only primary merchandiser, but the risk they take is less access to the market.
My general understanding (but no first hand experience) is that the AIM Surplus BCGs are generally a pretty good value, especially the ones with C158 bolts. This is a good deal: https://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XAIMBCGV2&name=AIM+v2+BLACK+NITRIDE+.223%2f5.56+AR%2fM16+C15 8+Bolt+Carrier+Group&groupid=6981
Edit: I'm a 6.8 SPC shooter, and the AIM 6.8 BCGs have gotten pretty favorable reviews over on 68Forums.
Here is the best price I can currently find on the Aero Precision Nitride BCG (also with a C158 bolt): http://www.monmouthreloading.com/shop/aero-precision-5-56-black-nitride-bolt-carrier-group/
Manufacturers can also concentrate on producing product instead of fulfilling customer orders. When the Manufacturer keeps their prices on their website at MSRP, and allows a lower MAP for their dealers, everyone wins.
You touched on this, which is marketing. Why be the only guy selling the product when you can have dealers across the country all selling your gear? You may make less margin having dealers, but you're also moving more.
If you're building a rifle from scratch you may want to consider a Rainier Arms Apex membership. You get discounted pricing and free shipping.
https://www.rainierarms.com/apex
If you're building a rifle from scratch you may want to consider a Rainier Arms Apex membership. You get discounted pricing and free shipping.
https://www.rainierarms.com/apex
thanks for the tip, but how easy is it to make that $80 in membership fees back? haha.
ps, diggin the sig. deut 6:5 is one of my favorites. Acts 20:24
Acts 20:24 is a good one.
You'll make back your membership fee, plus within the span of one build, plus if you source everything from RA, you won't make the mistake of buying a garbage part by mistake. Where you really save is shipping; having the ability to buy a couple small parts without a shipping hit tends to speed up time between orders as you aren't making a list so your shipping fee counts.
Toolcraft BCG's are another one the diehard Colt guys swear by. Do yourself a favor and spread the build out over time if your budget is small. Buy once/cry once is firmly in play in the AR world. If you are going to shoot it once and put it away, then fine; buy a cheap gun. If you are going to be training, shooting often for any reason or most importantly, letting your kids fire it, don't risk getting hurt with cheap, bottom of the barrell pricing, knock-off parts, or non-standard (Mil-Spec) parts.
You'll make back your membership fee, plus within the span of one build, plus if you source everything from RA, you won't make the mistake of buying a garbage part by mistake. Where you really save is shipping; having the ability to buy a couple small parts without a shipping hit tends to speed up time between orders as you aren't making a list so your shipping fee counts.
Toolcraft BCG's are another one the diehard Colt guys swear by. Do yourself a favor and spread the build out over time if your budget is small. Buy once/cry once is firmly in play in the AR world. If you are going to shoot it once and put it away, then fine; buy a cheap gun. If you are going to be training, shooting often for any reason or most importantly, letting your kids fire it, don't risk getting hurt with cheap, bottom of the barrell pricing, knock-off parts, or non-standard (Mil-Spec) parts.
i swear i just saw a bunch of toolcraft bcg's somewhere, but now i can't find them. i'm guessing somewhere in the $100 range?
and would it help if i posted what i was thinking of going with so that people can tell me if i'm on the right track with parts? I've been doing my research as much as i can, but wouldn't mind a few extra opinions from someone with more experience.
my lower is an anderson stripped lower with BCM enhanced LPK (includes PNT trigger). magpul CTR buttstock, and some no name buffer tube spring and buffer combo that was like $22...might regret that later...we'll see.
my upper as of this moment, is looking like the aero precision upper, 15" aero quantum mlok handguard, 16" ballistic advantage mid profile government barrel, spikes melonite gas tube, trinity force micro gas block (which i'm second guessing at the moment so input would be helpful), standard a2 birdcage, still looking for a quality and not as expensive bcg, and radian raptor CH (because i have to have an ambi CH...#leftyprobs) and they're sexy. mbus sights.
thoughts?
https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Toolcraft_Black_Nitrite_Bolt_Carrier_Group_AR15_M_ p/tool-tooauto-011bn.htm
https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Toolcraft_Black_Nitrite_Bolt_Carrier_Group_AR15_M_ p/tool-tooauto-011bn.htm
found a bunch of different ones on monmouthreloading.com...
http://www.monmouthreloading.com/shop/ar15-toolcraft-black-nitride-bcg/ a hair cheaper
can anyone recommend a 15" M-lok handguard that doesn't use the BAR platform? i was looking at the aero ones and talking with some people that have installed them and it sounds kind of like it's a pain in the butt to shim it just right to get the gas port to line up just right. i'm looking at staying around $80 (if that's possible).
This is the best bang for the buck 15" M-LOK handguard I've seen.
https://www.rainierarms.com/faxon-streamline-m-lok-handguards/
looks great, but a little more than i was gonna pay for a rail. that's like 2 or 3 extra visits to csl plasma...lol
UWone77
10 May 2017, 13:00
can anyone recommend a 15" M-lok handguard that doesn't use the BAR platform? i was looking at the aero ones and talking with some people that have installed them and it sounds kind of like it's a pain in the butt to shim it just right to get the gas port to line up just right. i'm looking at staying around $80 (if that's possible).
This is why I recommended a complete upper from Aero. No installation problems.
Also their complete uppers use Enhanced uppers so there is no barrel nut timing anyway. The barrel nut is machined into the upper. Just slide the handguard over.
This is why I recommended a complete upper from Aero. No installation problems.
Also their complete uppers use Enhanced uppers so there is no barrel nut timing anyway. The barrel nut is machined into the upper. Just slide the handguard over.
I know. But it's also like twice the cost. For that price, I'll wrestle with it myself.
I know, I know "then quit complaining". I agree. Haha.
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UWone77
10 May 2017, 13:11
I know. But it's also like twice the cost. For that price, I'll wrestle with it myself.
I know, I know "then quit complaining". I agree. Haha.
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Honestly, an $80 handguard is going to be crap. But since you said you can't afford a lot of ammo, any handguard will probably suffice for breaking the gun out twice a year to pop off a few mags.
How are you putting the upper together? You borrowing the tools?
Honestly, an $80 handguard is going to be crap. But since you said you can't afford a lot of ammo, any handguard will probably suffice for breaking the gun out twice a year to pop off a few mags.
How are you putting the upper together? You borrowing the tools?
Only thing I need to buy is an armorers wrench and the upper vice blocks, I've got everything else I would need at this point. I've got a buddy with a vice and I have roll pin punches already from the lower build. I don't need the fancy guisele roll pin starter punch. I can just use a pair of needle nose pliers. Lol.
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alamo5000
10 May 2017, 13:34
Only thing I need to buy is an armorers wrench and the upper vice blocks, I've got everything else I would need at this point. I've got a buddy with a vice and I have roll pin punches already from the lower build. I don't need the fancy guisele roll pin starter punch. I can just use a pair of needle nose pliers. Lol.
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If you are going that route for sure then invest in a roll of masking tape too. You could easily leave a good set of idiot marks (that we have all done before) if you don't.
If you are going that route for sure then invest in a roll of masking tape too. You could easily leave a good set of idiot marks (that we have all done before) if you don't.
Haha well yeah. I actually used electrical tape when I did my lower. It was a little thicker and stayed in place better than masking tape did. Didn't want to take any chances. Worked pretty well.
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alamo5000
10 May 2017, 13:39
And for 80 bucks you are going to find it difficult to find anything decent. I would think you might be able to find something second hand that is fairly decent. About 150 and you can get something decent probably if you're going new.
At that low of a price ($80) you are really rolling the dice. If you DO manage to find something new it has about 50/50 chance of being either a piece of junk or completely out of spec.
I honestly don't know of a 15" M-LOK handguard cheaper than the Faxon, even the UTG cost more.
UWone77
10 May 2017, 13:45
This all sounds like a train wreck. We've all done one before. Make sure you post pics of all the idiot marks and fuck ups. [:D]
alamo5000
10 May 2017, 13:50
This is why I recommended a complete upper from Aero. No installation problems.
Also their complete uppers use Enhanced uppers so there is no barrel nut timing anyway. The barrel nut is machined into the upper. Just slide the handguard over.
I know. But it's also like twice the cost. For that price, I'll wrestle with it myself.
I know, I know "then quit complaining". I agree. Haha.
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I think you are missing the boat here myself. UW knows what he is talking about. Those Aero uppers are the way to go. I can afford to get other stuff but even I have been eyeing those. The cost really isn't that much difference.
In the long run your patience now to spend a little bit extra for key parts will save your ass a lot more money later on. Tuck away another $50 or $100 for the project and then you can be way more happy with the end result.
alamo5000
10 May 2017, 13:52
This all sounds like a train wreck. We've all done one before. Make sure you post pics of all the idiot marks and fuck ups. [:D]
Same feeling here. [:D]
Saving an extra $100 to go towards better parts will pay off ten fold in the big picture.
Some people have to learn the hard way I guess.
I am an advocate for building but in some cases just buying a rifle is a better deal.
Most of the time it's a lot cheaper to buy a complete rifle, seen several of decent quality for around $500. But I'm loving this, DMG pics are not influencing this project at all. Reminds me of trying to convince my wife of something. When setting off quick burn combustion right in front of your face always go as cheap as possible.[BD]
inthegame
10 May 2017, 16:11
I started buying parts for a premium upper lower combo last year. Lower is cake to put together. I'm handing off the upper to someone experienced with the proper tools. Then I can finally post a picture of a build on this board, even if it's just a sad iPhone pic without the greatest lighting
Most of the time it's a lot cheaper to buy a complete rifle, seen several of decent quality for around $500. But I'm loving this, DMG pics are not influencing this project at all. Reminds me of trying to convince my wife of something. When setting off quick burn combustion right in front of your face always go as cheap as possible.[BD]
What's "DMG"?
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UWone77
10 May 2017, 16:49
What's "DMG"?
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GOST thinks we are just a bunch of nuthuggers ... inside joke
BoilerUp
10 May 2017, 20:18
This isn't exactly the best crowd to ask for shoe-string budget recommendations.
A couple of thoughts: wait for ALG/Geissele to have a good sale (Memorial Day?) and pick up an ALG EMR https://algdefense.com/ergonomic-modular-rail-v1-m-lok.html .
Browse the EE on some of the other high volume sites for used, older generation stuff
Buy some random chinese crap off of gun.deals, Amazon, or Sportsmans guide and hope for the best, but expect that there is some probability that your $80 handguard will eventually become scrap metal and didn't save you anything in the long run. Then again, you may get lucky and be perfectly happy with it - it's not like aluminum extrusion, CNC machining, and anodizing are rocket surgery technologies known only to the illimunati.
Frankly, the M4E1 uppers are about as simple and idiot proof for new builders as it gets: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?8038-T-amp-E-Review-Aero-Precision-M4E1-Enhanced-Upper-Receiver-and-12-quot-M-LOK-Enhanced-Handguard&highlight=
The combo (upper + Handguard) can be had very reasonably priced: http://www.graniteridgeoutfitters.com/Aero-Precision-M4E1-Enhanced-Upper-Handguard-Combo-M-LOK-M4E1COMBO-EM-BLK.htm
This isn't exactly the best crowd to ask for shoe-string budget recommendations.
A couple of thoughts: wait for ALG/Geissele to have a good sale (Memorial Day?) and pick up an ALG EMR https://algdefense.com/ergonomic-modular-rail-v1-m-lok.html .
Browse the EE on some of the other high volume sites for used, older generation stuff
Buy some random chinese crap off of gun.deals, Amazon, or Sportsmans guide and hope for the best, but expect that there is some probability that your $80 handguard will eventually become scrap metal and didn't save you anything in the long run. Then again, you may get lucky and be perfectly happy with it - it's not like aluminum extrusion, CNC machining, and anodizing are rocket surgery technologies known only to the illimunati.
Frankly, the M4E1 uppers are about as simple and idiot proof for new builders as it gets: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?8038-T-amp-E-Review-Aero-Precision-M4E1-Enhanced-Upper-Receiver-and-12-quot-M-LOK-Enhanced-Handguard&highlight=
The combo (upper + Handguard) can be had very reasonably priced: http://www.graniteridgeoutfitters.com/Aero-Precision-M4E1-Enhanced-Upper-Handguard-Combo-M-LOK-M4E1COMBO-EM-BLK.htm
Yeah I've noticed this isn't quite the crowd for budget builders. But whatever. I get the impression that everyone thinks I'm looking for the cheapest stuff that's the cheapest quality but I'm not. I'm looking for the best deals on the quality stuff they use. I know aero and ballistic advantage aren't the top tier or anything, but they're not bottom of the barrel. BA says they guarantee sub MOA...(with match ammo)...so that has to say something for their quality. The $80 hand guard isn't pressed cardboard like they've got in their minds, it's just last years model.
I'm hoping Memorial Day is gonna wow me with deals. I'll definitely check out that EMR, but what is the EE site that you mentioned?
Thanks for your input I appreciate it.
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mustangfreek
11 May 2017, 04:31
The aero build is the best/most cost effective unless you really bargain shop, sometimes it pays out or not. But as said we've all been in your spot..
Primary arms always has deals
Ar15 dot com has a big for sale/buy/trade section (EE= equipment exchange)
Gotcha. Thanks for the info.
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UWone77
11 May 2017, 04:48
We're all on a budget. Everyone just has a different view of what that is. Plenty of guys here have posted some budget builds. Even I have a few somewhere in the armory. Don't get too wrapped up on the word budget. It's not a negative thing. Budget AR's have also changed a lot over the years. When I first bought an AR, you couldn't get one unless you paid $1200 for a Bushmaster. Then sub $1000 guns were budget, then came $700, and now sub $500.
Don't get too emotionally invested in your purchases. Everyone naturally wants to defend their buying. I get it, I see it all the time. Which is why you'll see guys claiming that all you're buying is a "name" Sometimes that's true, but other times it is not. At least you are honest with your shooting. You posted you can't afford much ammo, so you'll probably just be shooting paper/dirt a few times a year. In that case, any AR15 will probably suit you just fine. I've helped several coworkers put together PSA and Aero guns that fit this same bill.
Not MLOK, but I have handled these and they are decent.
https://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Matrix_Arms_Foxtrot_KeyMod_Handguard_p/ma-foxtrot.htm
However, there is a lot more to hand guard prices than just being "last years model."
mustangfreek
11 May 2017, 05:06
Exactly
Also here's a much better deal then a $85 guess , fde aero rail for $100, , also he has some good deals on aero upper/rail combos if your still avid on the DIY way..I have ordered a bunch from here and never a problem.
http://www.schuylerarmsco.com/product.aero-precision-gen-1-15-enhanced-keymod-handguard-fde-cerakote-29-993
Tyrannosaur
11 May 2017, 06:19
The EE is "equipment exchange" on another forum, one which you will not be as well received as you are here. Basically you say "hi, I'm here to try and bui.... "
They scream "colt" and it goes down from there.
That being said the EE has amazing deals if you're diligent on looking and know what fair market values are.
The EE is "equipment exchange" on another forum, one which you will not be as well received as you are here. Basically you say "hi, I'm here to try and bui.... "
They scream "colt" and it goes down from there.
That being said the EE has amazing deals if you're diligent on looking and know what fair market values are.
Haha thanks for the warning. The only issue I'm having getting into ar15.com is that they don't take "free" email addresses. I've always used gmail for everything. I might have to get one thru Verizon if I want to get something.
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He's referring to M4Carbine.net. The focus of many is on battle-ready and boringly reliable rifles which sucks the fun out of the room. Still, Colt is the best value available right now. At under $700 you can get a full rifle that needs only a Magpul handguard, stock, and rear sight.
That said, you've been given fantastic options above and many have taken their time to find you items in line with your descriptions. I would thank them regardless of the direction you go. And it sounds like you should save a little more for known quality before jumping in or find a cheaper hobby. ;)
He's referring to M4Carbine.net. The focus of many is on battle-ready and boringly reliable rifles which sucks the fun out of the room. Still, Colt is the best value available right now. At under $700 you can get a full rifle that needs only a Magpul handguard, stock, and rear sight.
That said, you've been given fantastic options above and many have taken their time to find you items in line with your descriptions. I would thank them regardless of the direction you go. And it sounds like you should save a little more for known quality before jumping in or find a cheaper hobby. ;)
I fully appreciate the help everyone has given, don't get me wrong. I hope I'm not coming off as ungrateful. But I think people misunderstand when I say I can't afford to spend every weekend shooting the amount I want to shoot. I have a family and I spend a lot of time with them. I'm sure they don't feel the same about range time as I do. Having a family also means sometimes putting their needs ahead of my own (crazy I know). But I don't have a job that has crazy amounts of expendable income like it sounds most of you have. I'm a noob just trying to get my feet wet building a quality firearm for the least amount of money possible.
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Fully understand having a family, cheerleading practice and competition has eaten a big chunk of my range time. Keeping the girls happy beats shooting any day of the week. I also do not have a big collection of guns, I spend more on ammo than I do guns.
Fully understand having a family, cheerleading practice and competition has eaten a big chunk of my range time. Keeping the girls happy beats shooting any day of the week. I also do not have a big collection of guns, I spend more on ammo than I do guns.
That's my plan too. Which is the reason for making sure I'm getting something quality for a low price so that I don't have to do it over in a couple years.
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If you're like me you'll probably do it over anyways. I SBR'd my last so that I wouldn't sell it.
If you're like me you'll probably do it over anyways. I SBR'd my last so that I wouldn't sell it.
Hahaha who am I kidding. I'll probably build more after I'm done with this one. Eventually. When my wife cools down from me spending so much money. Lol
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alamo5000
11 May 2017, 10:32
I fully appreciate the help everyone has given, don't get me wrong. I hope I'm not coming off as ungrateful. But I think people misunderstand when I say I can't afford to spend every weekend shooting the amount I want to shoot. I have a family and I spend a lot of time with them. I'm sure they don't feel the same about range time as I do. Having a family also means sometimes putting their needs ahead of my own (crazy I know). But I don't have a job that has crazy amounts of expendable income like it sounds most of you have. I'm a noob just trying to get my feet wet building a quality firearm for the least amount of money possible.
Believe me man. There are very few if anyone here that has an unlimited budget. And a whole lot have greater commitments than their gun hobbies. Trust me we all get it.
As for building the gun I think it's not so much what you are thinking IE throwing unlimited money at projects etc. I for one started as a brand new noob to the AR world.
I think the biggest idea here is to basically not get a piece of junk. Whether it be a trigger or a scope mount or even back up sights the guys here know their stuff. A bunch use firearms along with their profession.
I think the main idea here that you're missing is that we are going for the best bang for the buck, not always the biggest blingy thing out there.
If you want a gun that you can run fast and hard or that you can hand off to your kid 15 years from now...well then there you go. Yes you can and most of us do build guns that are budget based but money is far from unlimited. Speaking only for myself I was thinking a lot bigger picture in taking my time to put together good stuff.
Pretty much it took me way more time to get things that I wanted/needed. I saved up a little nest egg and then supplemented it from there. People here are sometimes spreading out builds over 6 months or a year. All of us just see the end result... some really bad ass gun in some awesome photo.
Basically put don't be shy about slowing down and tucking away $20 or $50 here or there and waiting on a great sale. If I had to buy everything all at once in all of my rifles there is no way I could have done it.
The urge to want a gun 'right now' is one thing... but if you're building don't be shy to slow down and do it right.
Can I ask what some of the first time gun builders spent on their first build? And what key components they went with?
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First one I built I spent about $1,700. Best money was spent on the trigger.
alamo5000
11 May 2017, 12:17
Can I ask what some of the first time gun builders spent on their first build? And what key components they went with?
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I saved for about 2 years and ended up spending around $1500 bucks not including optics.
The caveat to that is I didn't go into it trying to do a budget but quality build. I went for an entirely different spectrum of firearm with a specific purpose so I used some more premium parts to meet my goals.
If I had wanted to do an all around backyard general purpose gun I could have gotten away A LOT cheaper without sacrificing a lot in terms of reliability. I probably could have been out the door for 750 to 1000 bucks depending on if I wanted optics or not.
Joelski
11 May 2017, 14:41
Hahaha who am I kidding. I'll probably build more after I'm done with this one. Eventually. When my wife cools down from me spending so much money. Lol
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You will.
Building gets in your blood as much as any other hobby. The same goes for all of our other "Man Folk" stuff, it doesn't matter if it's cars, guns, knives, cameras, guitars, shit that blows the EFF up!, or what, the bottom line is a lot of the fun is in the planning, purchasing and waiting on it to get here stage. Gratification. We can only masturbate so much.. I mean Alamo doesn't count because he's a masturbatory sensei [:D] and UWOne, simply by mentioning he has an armory (Believe that), should only be spoken to via a Temple of some sort. :notworthy:
We simply all enjoy the putting together and talking about new things. Cheap doesn't automatically equal crappy garbage with this group. That's what you don't find at other places around the interwebs; a lot less judgement and a lot more useful advice, even if it's critical.
The Colt AR has been the gold standard... from 1960 until 1995 when guys with lathes and mills and mold-ramming skills starting making the mousetrap better. Now its just a solid, dependable rifle that says "Colt" on the rollmark. Some people bristle with offense if you cast any aspersions at Colt, but they aren't the be-all, end-all as evidenced by the diversity of Govt contracts awarded to other manufacturers.
BTW: Welcome to the forum, you seem to like it, so stick around.
UW: One ultra-dramatic 13 year-old in track AND Softball, just finished Bball season! Who needs stress inoculation? Just getting from place to place on time is a good enough challenge!
Joelski
11 May 2017, 14:49
Can I ask what some of the first time gun builders spent on their first build? And what key components they went with?
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I paid $500 for a slightly used Colt AR 15 in 1984. That's the cheapest AR I've ever owned.
I did my SBR lower for about $450 catching sales on everything and an Andro Corp 14.5" upper that was $350, so around $800. Since then, I've replaced everything and the only thing left from the Andro upper is the barrel and receiver on my gray man carbine. Buy cheap and upgrade later works to get you shooting, but costs more in the long run.
I've always called them payday rifles. I've built all of my rifles part-by-part, never all at once, from payday to payday. That does 2 things for me; it keeps my plastic clean (I've never purchased any hobby items on credit) and I am motivated to save, or scrimp on lunch in order to get that special part I have to have vs. what I need.
LOL Budgets are meant to be shattered.
LOL Budgets are meant to be shattered.
Haha I agree, which is why I'm only using the card csl plasma gave me to buy parts...that way my wife doesn't see how much I'm actually spending. Does that make me a bad person? Haha.
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Nope, but asking your wife for permission on how to spend your hard earned money does. :P
Nope, but asking your wife for permission on how to spend your hard earned money does. :P
Touché...I walked into that one. But at this point, she's the one that makes sure there's money for food in our house. If she didn't keep me and my spending in line, we'd be broke, but I'd at least have all the really good parts for my rifle already. Haha.
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gatordev
12 May 2017, 03:54
I paid $500 for a slightly used Colt AR 15 in 1984. That's the cheapest AR I've ever owned.
Interestingly, when adjusted for inflation, that comes to $1,196.28. Pretty close to the MSRP on a complete Colt nowadays.
Can I ask what some of the first time gun builders spent on their first build? And what key components they went with?
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First build was around 2K, but that included a bunch of tools. If I'd actually listened to anyone who knows what they're doing, it would have been somewhat less expensive, and finished much sooner.
Joelski
12 May 2017, 17:27
Interestingly, when adjusted for inflation, that comes to $1,196.28. Pretty close to the MSRP on a complete Colt nowadays.
Yep. It was a display model and the last one the shop had. I only saved a few bucks. I Think street price was around $545 back then?
First build was around 2K, but that included a bunch of tools. If I'd actually listened to anyone who knows what they're doing, it would have been somewhat less expensive, and finished much sooner.
That was my experience. I think my first one was the most expensive.
I'm building a quality rifle right now (KAC lower and rail) that will come in around $1k.
is a faxon barrel worth looking at? or are they in the same league as ballistic advantage?
BoilerUp
13 May 2017, 18:30
is a faxon barrel worth looking at? or are they in the same league as ballistic advantage?
From Faxon's website (http://faxonfirearms.com/faqs/#3):
Q. Do you have an accuracy gurantee on your barrels?
A. What we will gurantee is that the barrel is held to within .0002" concentricity in the bore, which is mechanically capable of fantastic accuracy. From there, it is up to the completed system including receivers, bolts, headspace, ammunition, optics, trigger, shooter, etc. to also deliver. Since we are not able to qualify the system, we cannot gurantee accuracy of the complete system
From Ballistic Advantage's website:
Guaranteed to Perform
We are committed to providing products that meet, or exceed, the expectations of our most discerning customers. We stand behind that commitment. From the moment you unwrap one of our barrels, as you configure it with your receivers and handguards, and as you fire it on the range or in the field, we want you to experience the unique elegance and uncompromising quality that we craft into every one of our barrels.
We also stand behind our commitment to performance. All Ballistic Advantage barrels are guaranteed to give sub Minute of Angle (MOA) accuracy with match grade ammunition.1
If you are not completely satisfied with the form, finish, and fit of any of our barrels, please call one of our customer service reps at 407-347-4584 to discuss your concerns. If you find your BA barrel is not performing at the high standard of sub MOA accuracy, please first consult our "Troubleshooting Guide" on our website. If you need further assistance give us a call at 407-347-4584. Usually, our armorers are able to resolve any issues over the phone. If the issues are not resolved we will ask that the barrel be sent to us for inspection.2 We will either correct the problem or replace the barrel, or if the customer prefers, we will reimburse the purchase price of the barrel.
UWone77
13 May 2017, 18:36
I have multiple uppers with both barrels. They shoot for me about the same for accuracy. Both are fantastic barrels at great price points.
I give the slight edge to Ballistic Advantage because they offer pinned gas blocks for a minimal cost, which makes it a no brainer.
Faxon barrels I have are also not dimpled.
I have multiple uppers with both barrels. They shoot for me about the same for accuracy. Both are fantastic barrels at great price points.
I give the slight edge to Ballistic Advantage because they offer pinned gas blocks for a minimal cost, which makes it a no brainer.
Faxon barrels I have are also not dimpled.
But the BA barrels are dimpled?
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UWone77
13 May 2017, 18:45
But the BA barrels are dimpled?
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I can't recall, because all the BA barrels I own are pinned.
BoilerUp
13 May 2017, 19:19
But the BA barrels are dimpled?
No, they aren't.
Dstrbdmedic167
13 May 2017, 19:37
BA gets my money most of the time. The hanson barrels are excellent! They come with the GB pinned and the profile is awesome. Barrels are shooters on top of all that!
Both companies stand behind their products. Buy with confidence. Make sure you're on their mailing list for their weekly deals.
mustangfreek
13 May 2017, 21:44
Lots of talk about BA barrels, I'm about to put their std 556 barrel together and looking at their Hanson one for another upper
ok so rainier has a "match grade" bcg... https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-precision-match-grade-phosphate-bcg/ what does match grade even mean? lol
Several companies have produced that style of BCG. The match grade is often referring the profile and finish of the carrier. The extra added mass on the front of the carrier is said to assist with a more consistent bolt lockup.
Several companies have produced that style of BCG. The match grade is often referring the profile and finish of the carrier. The extra added mass on the front of the carrier is said to assist with a more consistent bolt lockup.
Interesting. Thanks for the info. Glad I asked
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Joelski
15 May 2017, 13:54
ok so rainier has a "match grade" bcg... https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-precision-match-grade-phosphate-bcg/ what does match grade even mean? lol
Match grade roughly translated can mean "Buyer beware" and is the most over-used term in shooting sports today. Remember 10 years ago when everything coming to market was "Tactical"? Same effect. Match grade should imply a high degree of accuracy and is normally dependent on using "Match grade", or high quality ammunition. The term most commonly applies to triggers, barrels and ammo.
I've never seen a match grade BCG before. That said, I'd never of match gas blocks either until I saw Rainier's and understood how their gas blocks are a better fit to their match barrels. If I wagered, Rainier had their BCG machines to higher tolerances for a precise fit in their upper receiver. Likely their bolts are headspaced to their match barrels too.
Looking at the review of that one in particular and I'd keep away from it. Not sure the story there.
Young Manufacturing was the first I remember using a carrier with that profile, but there are a lot of companies using it now. Young makes a great BCG, here's their details:
National Match Bolt Carrier by Young Manufacturing, Inc. This bolt carrier is 1/2 oz heavier and has more surface area at the carrier front. These additions provide improved alignment of the bolt carrier as it moves in the receiver, tighter tolerances, more consistent bolt-lockup, and generally much smoother operation. This bolt carrier causes less wear, improved accuracy, and overall better function. All Y/M carriers are made using these high standards. The extra precision, quality, and post production processes are among the reasons top custom companies choose Young Manufacturing, Inc bolt carriers. You should too! (Available in AR-15 and M-16)
Features:
1⁄2 oz heavier than standard carrier
Full diameter at carrier front provides increased support and alignment strength in battery position
Carriers precision ground between centers after heat treatment
Removes distortions from heat treat process Ensures straightness and accuracy
Full hammer ramp machined for smoother operation
https://www.rainierarms.com/young-mfg-national-match-bolt-carrier-group/
Stickman
16 May 2017, 18:02
Yup, Young was pretty much first on scene. Retailers were staking gas keys because Young didn't believe in them.
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