HK 416 Thread

[gatordev]

We can always start a 416 thread.

On a quick note, after chatting with Justin about the 416 vent conversion, I've decided I'm not doing it. If you end up doing it, I've VERY curious to see how it works for you.

This may be a short-lived thread, but... I'm curious to hear more. I'm not convinced it's the thing to do either, so I'm interested in hearing other thoughts.

[Slippers]

Maybe there should be an HK picture thread so more than just two people can post in it.[:D]

[Joelski]

Maybe there should be an HK picture thread so more than just two people can post in it.[:D]
Please let it be known I asked for that before the cool people showed up.

[fledge]

Here's a topic for the uniformed masses. What makes the HK416 upper better? I understand the sex appeal and cool club but why *should* someone like me save for one?

[Slippers]

Here's a topic for the uniformed masses. What makes the HK416 upper better? I understand the sex appeal and cool club but why *should* someone like me save for one?

First and foremost, it's an HK. [:D]

Seriously though, the barrel is amazing and should last for 20K+ rounds. It's the only piston AR upper worth considering. I would have purchased one from Justin except other HK projects are consuming all the fun money right now.

[GOST]

Has anyone ran both the 416 and a PWS?

[UWone77]

Here's a topic for the uniformed masses. What makes the HK416 upper better? I understand the sex appeal and cool club but why *should* someone like me save for one?

I wouldn't go out of my way to get one. If the opportunity didn't land on my feet, I would have likely never purchased.

[Default.mp3]

Here's a topic for the uniformed masses. What makes the HK416 upper better? I understand the sex appeal and cool club but why *should* someone like me save for one?G3Kurz is the online handle of Jim Schatz, who was a long-time H&K employee, among other many cool things. He passed away earlier this year.


No one mentioned that it is THE ONLY AR15-based weapon to be adopted and to have replaced as a result the M16/M4 and variants (MK18, MK12 SPR) in US military - that being all of the classified USSOCOM units, and AWG, and, and, and... Not one from LWRC, FN, SIG, POF, not the SCAR, not the XM8, not the ACR, etc - the HK416. That speaks volumes about what the most elite units in the world think is the very best AR platform available for use in battle.

Other more technical reasons might include:

HK416 Advantages – Upper Receiver

●Piston Rod Gas System
*70% less fouling and cleaning time (< 4 minutes for an HK416, > 12 for an M4)
An almost total lack of carbon fouling is present within the weapon during even extended operation. 95% of all carbon fouling, debris and heat leaves the muzzle of the HK416 upon firing.
*Little or no heat transfer to the bolt parts which results in 3-4 times increased service parts life and little to no requirement to reapply lubricant
*Ability to fire the weapon w/o lubricant. A lack of lubricant attracts less sand and grit in harsh environments thus improving reliability.
*Weapon operation not effected by the presence of water in the gas system
*User removable without tools
*Same gas system components and gas port location for all barrel lengths (10.4-20”)

●Cold Hammer Forged Barrel with Unique HK Tapered Bore Profile
*Improved Accuracy
*Long Barrel Service Life with less than 5% loss in muzzle velocity and accuracy in more than 20K rounds fired!
*Easily resists damage and/or reduces operator injury from an obstructed bore firing in the event of an obstructed bore (100% obstructed) occurrence (lodged projectile, water, mud, etc.) or excessive firing rates over 500-700 rounds (melt down)
*Bore and chamber chrome plated for improved corrosion resistance and reduced wear

●Improved Accuracy
10.4" barreled HK416's regularly out shoot 14.5" barreled M4's for accuracy - some HK416’s with 10.4” barrels shoot @ 1 MOA with match ammo! A randomly selected HK416 with 10.4” barrel from a production lot of more than 300 guns fired multiple 1 inch groups at 100 meters from a rest with match ammo (IMI 55 grain BTHP) during USG acceptance testing.

●Increased Parts Service Life
*HK416’s selected at random in USG testing have fired 15K rounds and more without a single stoppage or parts failure. In fact one gun was then tested to 30K rounds with no parts failures or stoppages recorded. M4 parts and barrel are expected to last only 6000 rounds or less as per the Army’s MIL SPEC for the weapon. (These relatively low numbers are accurate as per numerous reports from M4 users and armorers).
*ALL HK416 parts are guaranteed for a minimum of 15K rounds.
*Increased service life helps eliminate failures in combat, time and costs for repeated parts replacement and weapon repair.
*HK416’s have fired 30K rounds in testing without the replacement of a single part whereas an M4 to reach that round count will have replaced barrels and bolts at least 2 – 4 times, as well as various small parts (extractors, extractor springs).

●Increased Reliability
*HK416’s have fired more than 20K rounds without stoppages or parts failures, with NO cleaning or lubrication applied during those 20K rounds

●Bolt Carrier “Bell” Design for increased function and reliability

●Bolt
*Does not require extractor removal for cleaning
*Has support lug on extractor (and barrel extension) to limit excess compression of extractor spring
*Bolt head supports the cartridge case head
*No gas rings required

●One-piece Piston Rod “Carrier Key”
*Improved reliability and component service life

●Firing Pin Safety
*Prevents slam or drop fires and primer indents during chambering

●Higher Cook Off Rate (> 250 rounds versus < 210 for an M4)

●Free-floating User Removable 4-Quadrant Rail System
*100% return-to-zero/bore sight retention
*Allows user attachment w/o tools of US Army/HK 40x46 mm XM320 Grenade Launcher Module (GLM)

●Barrel Exchange by Armorer in less than 4 minutes
*Headspace automatically fixed with install

●Longer (10mm) Barrel Threads on Upper Receiver
*Improved Barrel Retention
*Improved Accuracy

HK416 Advantages – Lower Receiver

●Flared Magazine Well
*Assists in the ease and speed of reloading

●Improved HK-style Buffer Retainer
*Improved buffer retention for increased reliability

●HK Tungsten Granulate Buffer and Buffer Spring
*Improves feeding and locking reliability and reduces bolt “bounce back” to eliminate “light strikes”. One HK buffer and buffer spring is delivered with every HK416 and HK416 upper receiver.

●Improved HK High-Reliability Steel Magazine – up to 30% improvement in feed reliability over that with the standard aluminum USGI magazine. One HK magazine is delivered with every HK416 and HK416 upper receiver.

HK416 Advantages – Miscellaneous

●Special Order “Over the Beach” (OTB) Variant/Capability
*Allows the HK416 to be safely fired and reliably, if need be, from the surf with it completely full of water. This can be done repeatedly without ill effect to the shooter or weapon (an M4 blows the top of the receiver off).

●Unique HK Safety Blank Firing Adapter
*Will “catch” up to 3 live projectiles if accidentally mixed with blank ammunition during blank firing training

G3KurzSource: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/99758-why-416-better.html#post741796

Jon Canipe, AKA M4Guru, also wrote this on SSD awhile back: http://soldiersystems.net/2013/03/30/canipe-correspondence-retiring-my-416/

To be fair, most of the improvements noted are compared to issued DoD weapons; in the last couple of years, I think the DI system has been tweaked and improved substantially, to the point that I think the main advantages of an HK416 upper is the aforementioned amazing barrel, H&K's inherently excellent built quality, and the theoretical advantage of OTB capabilities. I've heard of anecdotes about the actual longevity of the H&K small parts at different junctures, and I'm not convinced that the op rod piston system confers any real advantage in most settings.

Still, being an H&K fanboy, I'd buy an honest-to-goodness HK416A5/MR556A3 shorty upper the moment it releases (one can dream, with the new Georgia plant); a full rifle would be considered, but much less of a priority. It's the only AR-15 item I'm interested in at this juncture, as I'm perfectly happy with what I have right now.

[fledge]

Default, thanks!! Valuable info.

That OTB special order feature though...! Need to find a shooting range in the surf.

[gatordev]

Oh lord, please let this not devolve into a piston/DI thread.

It's been interesting to play with and experience a different weapon system that seems to be THE design of the style. I can see how in extreme environments, the design would be beneficial. For me though, it's not doing anything better that my CQBR does, except shoot a little bit more accurately, but even that could be mitigated by putting a cut SOCOM barrel in the CQBR. When put on a shot timer, the 416 is slightly slower for me. Some of that could be helped by getting back into core strength training, but even then, it does push more (which makes total sense).

Still, it's a cool piece of history to go make noise with.

[Default.mp3]

That OTB special order feature though...!OTB is a standard feature on the current A5 iteration, FWIW. The post I quoted is admittedly fairly old.

[Slippers]

G3Kurz is the online handle of Jim Schatz, who was a long-time H&K employee, among other many cool things. He passed away earlier this year.

Justin, who UW and gator got their uppers from, was a personal friend of Jim Schatz.

[fledge]

If these become more ubiquitous with new manufacturing with A5 uppers in the KAC price range, I'd consider it.

[UWone77]

If these become more ubiquitous with new manufacturing with A5 uppers in the KAC price range, I'd consider it.

I'd rather have 2 SR16 uppers [:D]

[Joelski]

I'd settle for just one measly SR16. Is that so much to ask?

[fledge]

I'd settle for just one measly SR16. Is that so much to ask?

And I'd be happy with a mere SR15.

[Stone]

16 reply's and not one pic...[pop]

[Stone]

[QUOTE=Slippers;153388]First and foremost, it's an HK. [:D]

Seriously though, the barrel is amazing and should last for 20K+ rounds. "It's the only piston AR upper worth considering".
That's debatable. Have you owned and extensively torture tested them all? Or were you just being facetious.[:D]

[gatordev]

16 reply's and not one pic...[pop]

Technically it was meant as a discussion/technical thread, but...

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4101/35531154072_6746e04a39_b.jpg

[Stone]

Ahhh, nothing wrong with a little eye candy to propel the discussion. [:D]

[Slippers]

That's debatable. Have you owned and extensively torture tested them all? Or were you just being facetious.[:D]

I read your response on my phone (which already said it was edited), then walked upstairs and noticed it was edited again. This version seems to be toned down a bit.

Of course I haven't extensively torture tested every single piston upper on the market. But you knew this before you asked.

[UWone77]

[QUOTE=Slippers;153388]First and foremost, it's an HK. [:D]

Seriously though, the barrel is amazing and should last for 20K+ rounds. "It's the only piston AR upper worth considering".
That's debatable. Have you owned and extensively torture tested them all? Or were you just being facetious.[:D]

Someone's HK hate has been triggered. [:D]

[Stone]

"I read your response on my phone (which already said it was edited), then walked upstairs and noticed it was edited again. This version seems to be toned down a bit."

Having bad storms here, the post reply button takes me to a blank page. I didn't change anything, post is the same.

[Stone]

Nope, don't hate them. Just wouldn't buy one. :P The hype that surrounds HK is better than their product. [:D]

[UWone77]

This is a 416 thread, let's not get into how the upper is overpriced, overhyped, ect. Plenty of other forums to do that.

[Stone]

10-4. Just sharing in the banter with Slippers. Just a joke.

[UWone77]

10-4. Just sharing in the banter with Slippers. Just a joke.

You know I always appreciate a Stone ribbing. [:D]

I'll put it out there, I own a decent amount of HK guns, but I've considered most of them "fun" guns and not the best at particularly anything other than higher prices.

[Stone]

I am a firm believer that people should buy what they want because its what they want and its their HARD earned money. We all have different tastes and requirements in the equipment we buy but we still have one thing in common, that we like firearms.

[velocity2006]

Nope, don't hate them. Just wouldn't buy one. :P The hype that surrounds HK is better than their product. [:D]

Have you owned an HK? Any of them?

It's not all hype, my VP9 is hands down the best full size stock 9mm service pistol I have ever shot. The only thing that comes close is the PPQ imo. Hell people still carry full size USP's as their ccw. Also having a very close friend who owns several (SL8, MR556, UMP, numerous MP5 variants, numerous pistols), all of which have been 100% and ooze quality compared to their copycats. I agree that they command a bit higher price than they should, but every one I have seen ran perfectly. Honestly their price point isn't that bad any more either with all the $2k custom Glocks and boutique AR crap on the market.

I've only handled a 416 but it seemed quality, I have ran a MR556 a few times and it has been reliable as well.

[Stone]

No never bought one. Years ago I researched the MR556, went down and handled it, shot it and wasn't impressed. Six months ago I went down to my LGS and again after researching the VP9, handled it, shot it and wasn't impressed. The trigger was mushy, the mag release location needs me to release my grip to work it, only a 15 round mag(17 on the glock and 19 on the XDM) and the exterior controls aren't as slim line as I need them to be. Checked out a G17 Gen4 right after that and it felt so much better. Granted, I put night sights, a tungsten guide rod and re-worked the trigger myself but it runs and feels top notch compared to the VP9. So after all the internet hype about the VP9 I was less than impressed by the actual product. In my quest for a .45 I considered the HK45 and the grip was to large for my medium sized hands. I am sure they make a good product its just not for me. And now that none of that was about the 416, UW is going to come along with a nutcracker and break my balls.[BD]

[Joelski]

SCARs are down to $2300 today. Eventually, the dip will pull the price down on 556's. It probably won't touch the 416 upper though d/t the militaria market. You can hear teeth gnashing for SR 16 uppers as well as CMP 1911's.

[UWone77]

Lack of pictures...

3923

[UWone77]

SCARs are down to $2300 today. Eventually, the dip will pull the price down on 556's. It probably won't touch the 416 upper though d/t the militaria market. You can hear teeth gnashing for SR 16 uppers as well as CMP 1911's.

Speaking of... I noticed that SR16 uppers are not even listed as available from the manufacturer anymore on the Brownells site.

[gatordev]

Soooo...back to the intent of the thread....


On a quick note, after chatting with Justin about the 416 vent conversion, I've decided I'm not doing it. If you end up doing it, I've VERY curious to see how it works for you.

Care to elaborate now that you're done gallivanting around exciting Tacoma? If I text Justin, he'll just offer me 3 more jobs that I'm probably not qualified to do (kidding...kind of).

[Stone]

Not sure if this is a good deal or not but it is what it is.
http://shopmodernoutfitters.com/heckler-koch-hk416-complete-parts-kit-minus-lower-receiver-fcg/

[UWone77]

Soooo...back to the intent of the thread....



Care to elaborate now that you're done gallivanting around exciting Tacoma? If I text Justin, he'll just offer me 3 more jobs that I'm probably not qualified to do (kidding...kind of).

Justin told me don't do it, basically all I needed to know. I trust his expertise. I can definitely have him elaborate if he cares to.

Since I'm not going to do a MR556 Lower at this point, a Colt will have to do. My buddies at Geissele sent me this 416 trigger.

4040

[gatordev]

Fair enough. I figured they're might be some technical/structural reason that he was saying that.

I have one of my Colts on 416 duty as well, albeit with a KAC hammer. I issue starting this last weekend is a bolt-over-base issue, which is a bit frustrating, since the first 400 rounds were problem free with the same mags.

[GOST]

Since I'm not going to do a MR556 Lower at this point, a Colt will have to do.

How about an 80% lower with with all the 416 markings? I have a buddy with a 416 I could copy.

[gatordev]

FWIW, a LMT lower is also correct for some units. I plan to F1 mine and use that, putting the Colt back on the Block 2 upper...as soon as I can figure out how not to pay $35 for digital fingerprints.

[Joelski]

Ink ones are still $15 here at the S.O. They're good for one year, correct? Do they keep those on file for a year and shitcan them? Technically not a derail since I advised you to go to your local Sheriff's Office instead of paying SiCo's highway robbery. [:)]

[gatordev]

Ink ones are still $15 here at the S.O. They're good for one year, correct? Do they keep those on file for a year and shitcan them? Technically not a derail since I advised you to go to your local Sheriff's Office instead of paying SiCo's highway robbery. [:)]

I think I can just do it on base for free, I just have to get connected to the right person. Unfortunately the DoD electronic system here can't print onto cards. If only the ATF could take digital...

[Joelski]

I think I can just do it on base for free, I just have to get connected to the right person. Unfortunately the DoD electronic system here can't print onto cards. If only the ATF could take digital...

Aren't the SiCo kiosk prints digital? You're right, the system sucks. Ink has been out for ages yet its still the currency of choice for the ATF regarding print registration. Electronic format would be better on orders of magnitude, but unless you're a lobbyist, they won't listen to reason. I wonder if anything will ever happen with the white paper that was allegedly penned by the ATF's second guy, but I figure it was tossed in the furnace when they cremated his remains.

[UWone77]

How about an 80% lower with with all the 416 markings? I have a buddy with a 416 I could copy.

I've seen some tastefully done ones. I may consider that in the future.

[gatordev]

Aren't the SiCo kiosk prints digital?

I have no idea. I've never used SilencerCo's system. I found a local guy here that will electronically scan your prints (he does it for state and federal requirements) and then prints them on FBI cards. They're actually very nicely done, but they're $35 per pair.

[BoilerUp]

Aren't the SiCo kiosk prints digital? You're right, the system sucks. Ink has been out for ages yet its still the currency of choice for the ATF regarding print registration. Electronic format would be better on orders of magnitude, but unless you're a lobbyist, they won't listen to reason. I wonder if anything will ever happen with the white paper that was allegedly penned by the ATF's second guy, but I figure it was tossed in the furnace when they cremated his remains.

Yes, Kiosks are digital. I got printed at my local PD for my SBR and they digitally scanned me then printed out my cards.

[UWone77]

I have no idea. I've never used SilencerCo's system. I found a local guy here that will electronically scan your prints (he does it for state and federal requirements) and then prints them on FBI cards. They're actually very nicely done, but they're $35 per pair.

$35? Ouch.

Ours are $10 for the 2, $3 for additional cards. I had 20 done earlier this year, and I'm already down to my last 2. [BD]

I will say the electronic system is the shit. Just scan your prints and wait for the printer.

[gatordev]

$35? Ouch.

Ours are $10 for the 2, $3 for additional cards. I had 20 done earlier this year, and I'm already down to my last 2. [BD]

I will say the electronic system is the shit. Just scan your prints and wait for the printer.

Originally I was told (by my local FFL) that it was $35 for prints and pictures, but turns out it was just prints. I got a little less excited once I heard that.

[BoilerUp]

$35? Ouch.

Ours are $10 for the 2, $3 for additional cards. I had 20 done earlier this year, and I'm already down to my last 2. [BD]

I will say the electronic system is the shit. Just scan your prints and wait for the printer.

FYI, Renton PD is $10 for first card, $1 for each additional. No residency requirement. Best deal I've found in the Seattle area.

[UWone77]

FYI, Renton PD is $10 for first card, $1 for each additional. No residency requirement. Best deal I've found in the Seattle area.

That's a great deal.

The over hour drive round trip isn't though...and that's without traffic! [:D]

[BoilerUp]

That's a great deal.

The over hour drive round trip isn't though...and that's without traffic! [:D]

but it's only 20 minutes from RA and you are there a lot...

[UWone77]

but it's only 20 minutes from RA and you are there a lot...

When we lived in Federal Way I was there quite a bit, now that I'm further out with a toll on top of it, I try to limit it to transfers and purchases, but that might have only cut the visits by 20% [:D]

What amounts to about $15 less on a 10 card purchase isn't going to be worth it time wise for me. But I'm definitely pointing my King County / Seattle friends who need cards to Renton from now on.

[UWone77]

Interesting.

I just wonder what the stripped HK416 and 417 lower markings will have. The Brownells logo does not give me warm fuzzies even if it's on actual HK416 forgings.


This has been confirmed by Paul at Brownells via email.

We don’t have prices firm yet, but we will have:

HK 416 & 417 Parts Kits (less barrel, bolt & lower)

Germans could not have the barrel & bolt, and we can’t import the lower. We are importing all the lower components with the kits.

HK 417 & 417 Stripped lower receivers, machined off original HK forgings

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/15/breaking-brownells-hk-416-parts/

[Aragorn]

Would a standard barrel and bolt work? I mean I'm assuming it comes with the piston kit.

I'm with you, I don't like the Brownells logo either.

[Joelski]

I want this so bad I can taste it!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/9F4EA621-923A-4A3D-A86E-7697A1794FF2-920x385.jpg

[Slippers]

I want this so bad I can taste it!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/9F4EA621-923A-4A3D-A86E-7697A1794FF2-920x385.jpg

I'll be very surprised if these ever touch US soil.

[Joelski]

Yeah, no shit. Doesn't make the want any less. So much for a plant in flking Georgia.

[UWone77]

Yeah, no shit. Doesn't make the want any less. So much for a plant in flking Georgia.

But they make all of the VP9's you could ever want there. [:D]

[Joelski]

But they make all of the VP9's you could ever want there. [:D][Yawn]

[UWone77]

5090

[VIPER 237]

After talking to the HK guys at Shot I wouldn’t hold my breath. Basically if, and it’s a very big If, the German military picks it up then they ‘might’ consider a US variant. However it’s also going against the 416 which has an excellent track record. Most likely the 433 doesn’t win the contract and it never becomes a full production firearm.


I want this so bad I can taste it!

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/9F4EA621-923A-4A3D-A86E-7697A1794FF2-920x385.jpg


I'll be very surprised if these ever touch US soil.

[Default.mp3]

After talking to the HK guys at Shot I wouldn’t hold my breath. Basically if, and it’s a very big If, the German military picks it up then they ‘might’ consider a US variant. However it’s also going against the 416 which has an excellent track record. Most likely the 433 doesn’t win the contract and it never becomes a full production firearm.Interesting, I was under the impression that the HK416 wasn't viable as a service rifle due to cost. Would be a shame if the HK433 never takes off, it seems like a modernized ACR (which sounds weird even to me, given how it's only slightly over a decade since Magpul licenced it to Bushmaster).

[UWone77]

After talking to the HK guys at Shot I wouldn’t hold my breath. Basically if, and it’s a very big If, the German military picks it up then they ‘might’ consider a US variant. However it’s also going against the 416 which has an excellent track record. Most likely the 433 doesn’t win the contract and it never becomes a full production firearm.

I figured this would be correct. When I heard the HK 243 imports were dead, I knew this had no chance.

Personally, I'd settle for a G28.

[UWone77]

Got a Geissele 416 handguard installed on one of them. Rainier did a great job, grinding down the tabs.

5096

[gatordev]

This is low on the priority list right now, but besides girth and the QD, what does this rail do better than the OEM version?

[Slippers]

This is low on the priority list right now, but besides girth and the QD, what does this rail do better than the OEM version?

It feels sooooo good in your hand. Not kidding.

[UWone77]

This is low on the priority list right now, but besides girth and the QD, what does this rail do better than the OEM version?

I wouldn't make it a priority to upgrade either. It feels great in the hand, but I think they are like $400+ ? Not sure if it's worth it. The factory Quad is more than sufficent.

I am curious about trying the Midwest Industries version though, since it has MLOK.

[gatordev]

I wouldn't make it a priority to upgrade either. It feels great in the hand, but I think they are like $400+ ? Not sure if it's worth it. The factory Quad is more than sufficent.

I am curious about trying the Midwest Industries version though, since it has MLOK.

That was the other concern..."proprietary" mounting (as I understand it), as in not MLOK. If I was to get one, it would be during a G-sale plus .mil discount, assuming they're even in stock. But for now, I've already blown my load on another rail. More to come in the near future.

[UWone77]

That was the other concern..."proprietary" mounting (as I understand it), as in not MLOK. If I was to get one, it would be during a G-sale plus .mil discount, assuming they're even in stock. But for now, I've already blown my load on another rail. More to come in the near future.

Which rail has proprietary mounting?

[SINNER]

That Geissele with those archaic bolt on rails. Lol

[gatordev]

Which rail has proprietary mounting?


That Geissele with those archaic bolt on rails. Lol

That's what I meant. As I understand it, it's no different than other rails (Troy, original CMR, etc) so that why I put it in quotes. I'm just not a fan of having to bolt on something to then be able to put something on that thing I just bolted on.

[UWone77]

That's what I meant. As I understand it, it's no different than other rails (Troy, original CMR, etc) so that why I put it in quotes. I'm just not a fan of having to bolt on something to then be able to put something on that thing I just bolted on.

I'm likely going to go with the MI rail. I really want an Arisaka MLOK Offset.

[UWone77]

5117

[UWone77]

Brownells 416 lower.

6143

[gatordev]

Brownells 416 lower.


So who did you end up going with? Looks like Carolina Laser Works isn't doing them anymore. I saw SALE in San Antonio is now doing them.

[UWone77]

So who did you end up going with? Looks like Carolina Laser Works isn't doing them anymore. I saw SALE in San Antonio is now doing them.

I must have got it in before HK sent them the C&D letter. [BD]

Most people will only engrave 80% as they don't have an FFL. Never heard of SALE in San Antonio. There's a file on HKPro that's a few years old for the markings that you can bring to a competent laser shop.

[gatordev]

I must have got it in before HK sent them the C&D letter. [BD]

Most people will only engrave 80% as they don't have an FFL. Never heard of SALE in San Antonio. There's a file on HKPro that's a few years old for the markings that you can bring to a competent laser shop.

Yeah, I have the files, just been too busy with work to do anything yet. The San Antonio guys are using that file, as it has the older city on it. Since our uppers are '07, I'm fine with that. Those guys were cross-posted on the clone group on FB, which is how I found out about them.

The Carolina guy said he wasn't given a C&D letter, but maybe he didn't want to admit to it. Either way, it's a bummer that option went away. That was a good price for good work.

[UWone77]

Yeah, I have the files, just been too busy with work to do anything yet. The San Antonio guys are using that file, as it has the older city on it. Since our uppers are '07, I'm fine with that. Those guys were cross-posted on the clone group on FB, which is how I found out about them.

The Carolina guy said he wasn't given a C&D letter, but maybe he didn't want to admit to it. Either way, it's a bummer that option went away. That was a good price for good work.

I'm guessing he did get a C&D or got some kind of notice. If you look at his instagram, he's removed all previous photos of his work on 416 markings.

The first day he offered it I sent mine in as I figured it was only a matter of time before it was over.

[UWone77]

6174

[gatordev]

Curious, UW, why did you go with "Ashburn, VA?" I thought the original files were "Sterling, VA," which would match the date code on the upper.

Anywho...Nice to finally have a little time to go shoot.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4825/31932846467_2a2fa3ccca_b.jpg

[UWone77]

Curious, UW, why did you go with "Ashburn, VA?" I thought the original files were "Sterling, VA," which would match the date code on the upper.

Anywho...Nice to finally have a little time to go shoot.

Aint nobody got time for clone correct.

Honestly, I got it done so fast, I didn't stop and think about the little details. Like I mentioned, I sent it in the minute he put it live, and I knew my window was short.

[gatordev]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLlu_RpElBs

But seriously, now with the government open again, maybe some day soon I'll send mine off.

[gatordev]

Not 100% happy with the engraving, but at least it's an example of Western decadence.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7920/32370578287_1a03c85a3d_b.jpg

[UWone77]

Who did it? Looks ok, not great. How’s the other side?

[gatordev]

Who did it? Looks ok, not great. How’s the other side?

What was frustrating is that I emailed all the files and fonts but it seems they didn't use any of them. Spacing is really the biggest issue, although the font is slightly (slightly) different. They had apparently done one before and I think since they had already done one, they didn't bother to look at what I had provided. Honestly, that's my biggest complaint. At least tell me you can't use what I provided. But honestly, a lot of my frustration went away once I started shooting it.

Other side is fine, again, just slightly smaller spacing than what it should be.

I won't name the vendor here, but their initials involve the Carolinas. Shipping was super-fast, though, and the NFA engraving was nicely done.

[UWone77]

They did a good job with the logo, the font like you said is off. Did they offer you a partial or full refund ? I just ordered another Brownells lower, so I'm going to see who's available to do the second one.

[gatordev]

I didn't ask. Maybe I should have, but it didn't seem worth the effort and won't change the end result.

PM inbound.

[UWone77]

More or less done to my satisfaction.

Will do more HK furniture for the 2nd one.

6367

[gatordev]

Lookin' good. I just wish Brownell's hadn't put the serial where they did.

[UWone77]

Brownells BRN-4 Lower now $299

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-4-stripped-lower-receiver-prod123850.aspx?lp_pageid=HK416

[gatordev]

I'm interested to see what you've decided on your engraving now that you have a stamp.

Also, H7L will give you another $20 off that BRN-4 lower. Plus Active Junky will take care of the FFL fee. For what it is, that's a pretty decent deal.

[UWone77]

I'm interested to see what you've decided on your engraving now that you have a stamp.

Also, H7L will give you another $20 off that BRN-4 lower. Plus Active Junky will take care of the FFL fee. For what it is, that's a pretty decent deal.

I've been talking to San Antonio Laser Engraving. I'll let you know how that goes. Apparently you have to sign a waiver stating this is for personal use only.

https://www.lasermags.com/

[UWone77]

gator, if you ever do another, San Antonio Laser did mine in 2 days after they received it. Charged me $132 for the engraving and return shipping. Carolina Laser works charged me $80. I should have it in my hands on Friday, so I'll post pictures when it comes in. Will have the Sterling, VA markings this time around.

[gatordev]

gator, if you ever do another, San Antonio Laser did mine in 2 days after they received it. Charged me $132 for the engraving and return shipping. Carolina Laser works charged me $80. I should have it in my hands on Friday, so I'll post pictures when it comes in. Will have the Sterling, VA markings this time around.

I've been waiting for the results. Can they do magwell lip engraving, too?

I think it will be down to these guys or the Houston shop, since I've been able to see their work in a video.

[UWone77]

Quick cell phone pic... the HK logo at the top is bigger than my Carolina Laser works version. The font and spacing on the rest of it looks correct

6537

[UWone77]

6538

[gatordev]

Looks good. Did you do a NFA engraving, as well?

[UWone77]

Looks good. Did you do a NFA engraving, as well?

I didn't think to have them do it. I have a local guy who does NFA items for $30 per.

I have a small pile that needs to be done, so it's probably time to see him.

[gatordev]

I'll have to give them a shout. Now if I could only find a buffer retainer. I have the spring and the pin, just not the retainer. Brownell's says they should have some "soon," but not sure what that means.

[UWone77]

I'll have to give them a shout. Now if I could only find a buffer retainer. I have the spring and the pin, just not the retainer. Brownell's says they should have some "soon," but not sure what that means.

Yeah, I just used a standard one until they work those parts out.

[UWone77]

6559

[UWone77]

6560

[gatordev]

I think I like the bigger HK now that I can see them next to one another. Everything else looks pretty spot on. That seals the deal.

[UWone77]

6575

[Stone]

How are the twins running?

[UWone77]

How are the twins running?

Usual 416... sharp recoil, mediocre gas mitigation since I don't have the vented gas blocks. [:D]

[Stone]

Nice!

[gatordev]

Mine is "fully operational" now that I have an orange spring and a Slash's XH buffer in it. I didn't realize how notorious these were for running full-power ammo suppressed without any gas block work. But with the change in parts, it's good to go across the board again.

[UWone77]

6585

[Aragorn]

I've been looking at the 416 stuff Brownells has. All I see is 16" barrels, where did you get your shorter ones? Or did you just buy complete uppers?

[FortTom]

I got an email from Brownells advertizing Lower and Upper kits to build a 416. Might want to take another look.

FT[:D]

[Aragorn]

That’s what I was talking about, but they’ve only got 16” barrels.

[gatordev]

That’s what I was talking about, but they’ve only got 16” barrels.

Slipper's friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who who told UWone about selling 416 uppers at 31 Flavors and several of us bought them.

Those kits have been coming down in price, but since you're still not getting the HK barrel (and bolt), it's still expensive. Then again, if you actually price out all of the 416 specific lower parts (not including the common GI parts), you're looking at ~$700 if you just did everything at Brownell's, so I guess it's all relative. The biggest advantage to the parts kits right now is that most of the lower parts are OOS everywhere because everyone bought them up when the lowers came out.



ETA: Spoke with San Antonio Laser yesterday and got a little more background on them. Apparently they went to H&K and asked for permission to recreate their markings. I asked if they were using the HK Pro files and the guy said no, they made their own based on H&K's actual data. Kind of cool. Anywho, that's why you have to sign the form. NFA engraving was an additional $40, which is a bit steep, but at least it's one-stop shopping.

[Aragorn]

Right, so chances of getting a shorter barrel are slim...

[UWone77]

Right, so chances of getting a shorter barrel are slim...

You can basically go 3 routes:

Cut down an MR556 upper. This is what a lot of people do, but it's still not a 416 barrel, No Chrome lining, and the MR556 barrel is slightly thicker.

Buy a barrel from Nefarious Arms. I believe Marvin Pitts green lit his 416 barrel project. Price was around the $525 mark. Actually, I think Hurrican Butterfly, they sold the 12.5k HK416 C's had extra barrels available when they made them for their 416 C project. I believe he's going to list them on gunbroker.

Buy a real 416 upper kit. Prices have been hovering around 2700-3200 depending on date codes, condition, ect.

If done right, it's a satisfying project, it's just not cheap. Welcome to HK stuff I guess...

[UWone77]

6609

[UWone77]

6627

[UWone77]

6698

[gatordev]

I hate to admit it because I really don't want or need to buy any more uppers for a while, but the last sale (which is no longer) along with a 10% coupon on the 416 parts kit got me thinking about building a 416 Recce. From some cursory reading, it sounds like the Brownell's barrels are actually pretty good.

Just thinking, not acting.

[fledge]

Looking good, UW. Will the selector refuse to move to the 3rd position?

[UWone77]

I hate to admit it because I really don't want or need to buy any more uppers for a while, but the last sale (which is no longer) along with a 10% coupon on the 416 parts kit got me thinking about building a 416 Recce. From some cursory reading, it sounds like the Brownell's barrels are actually pretty good.

Just thinking, not acting.

Funny you mention that... had the same thought, and then reconsidered as I just didn't want to pony up the cash.


Looking good, UW. Will the selector refuse to move to the 3rd position?

I guess I could just put a F/A selector in there so it will move to the third position. The pull of the trigger disagrees though. [:D]

[gatordev]

Funny you mention that... had the same thought, and then reconsidered as I just didn't want to pony up the cash.



I'm a little surprised to hear that given it's a little more interesting (to me, anyway). I will probably still keep an eye out if that kit goes on sale again. Anywho...San Antonio did a nice job.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259406926_8b47851260_b.jpg

[UWone77]

I'm a little surprised to hear that given it's a little more interesting (to me, anyway). I will probably still keep an eye out if that kit goes on sale again. Anywho...San Antonio did a nice job.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259406926_8b47851260_b.jpg

They did a good job with your laser engraving. Did you get another one done or just re-do/re-ano the last one?

I was looking at the Recce setup as the non-vented gas blocks suck suppressed, I'm sure you know this too. Ever since I've been shooting my PMM cut down SCAR16 SBR, shooting anything else in the AR world suppressed generally sucks compared to the SCAR. Shooting 14.5/16's seem fun again. Maybe down the road I'll see if Justin can find me a real 416 one, but for now, I might just squirrel away another Brownells lower to be remarked.

[gatordev]

They did a good job with your laser engraving. Did you get another one done or just re-do/re-ano the last one?


Wait, you mean buy a new, separate lower? That would be crazy. Who would do that? And then if you had some sort of hypothetical second lower, what would you do with it? Make a whole new rifle out of it? Crazy.

I know you said he poo-poo'ed it before, but from what I've seen on HKPRO, modifying a non-vented gas block seems to be yielding decent results. I'm not sure what the Brownell's gas port size is, but given it's a 16" barrel, I'd guess it's different than a 10.4" OEM barrel, too. But maybe not. I will say that after finding the right spring/buffer combo, mine has been working nicely suppressed or unsuppressed. And it even passed a recent 100-round range test running weak Silver Bear, which made it almost seem like shooting a regular AR.

[UWone77]

6717

[Stone]

Third pin happiness. Property of the USMC
6758

[Stone]

6759

[Stone]

Double tap, deleted...

[Stone]

6761

[UWone77]

6781

[UWone77]

6788

[gatordev]

I was looking at the Recce setup as the non-vented gas blocks suck suppressed, I'm sure you know this too.

Yup. And then this happened last week. Things escalated quickly.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48601014351_a35b8083fa_b.jpg

[Joelski]

6788

Is that the replacement for the chin-up PT test?

[:D]

[UWone77]

Yup. And then this happened last week. Things escalated quickly.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48601014351_a35b8083fa_b.jpg

Excellent! Looking forward to watching this build!

[UWone77]

Yup. And then this happened last week. Things escalated quickly.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48601014351_a35b8083fa_b.jpg

Excellent! Looking forward to watching this build!

[gatordev]

Excellent! Looking forward to watching this build!

It will be a bit, as I'm waiting on the barrel. But SEAL Recce is the direction I'm headed, I think. Optic will no doubt be incorrect, but it will look "close."

[UWone77]

What lower are you going to use?

[UWone77]

Now you have me thinking.... maybe the next time Brownells has 10% off, I should snag another BRN4 lower to throw into the back of the safe.

[gatordev]

What lower are you going to use?

The other lower that I "didn't" already have with the "lesser" engraving. My OCD ended up costing me more money.


Now you have me thinking.... maybe the next time Brownells has 10% off, I should snag another BRN4 lower to throw into the back of the safe.

It's interesting to watch their coupon code usage lately. It seems to have slowed down a lot, but they're still putting things on sale. I saw a 10% coupon the other day, but it was the first one in a while. Meanwhile, they've had their 416 parts kit on sale for a week now, and it's even less than it was before when on sale AND if you applied a 10% coupon. Their Retro guns were on sale a few days ago (not sure if they still are or for how much, just saw the email ad). It seems like they're starting to target certain items vs an all-in sales blitz with a coupon code.

I was hoping a 10% coupon code would pop last week, but I wasn't sure how long the existing sale would last. As it turns out, long enough, but oh well. But with the sale price and Active Junky, it was still a steal. And interestingly, at the time, the bolt and tool were also significantly marked down. I think they're trying to unload what they have now.

[FortTom]

I have three HK pistols, all USP's. Is the 416 actually worth the ass kicking it gives you, money wise? Looking to possibly snag one more gun before I have to flair my wings, and say "I'm done"...

FT[:D]

[gatordev]

UWOne and I have made some comments earlier in the thread, but short answer is: no. Long answer is: it's a unique system that's also extremely accurate...and it's fun to play with. Or to put it another way, did your ultra light build do anything different than a normal AR (other than be light)? Not really, but that doesn't mean you didn't enjoy it.

[UWone77]

I have three HK pistols, all USP's. Is the 416 actually worth the ass kicking it gives you, money wise? Looking to possibly snag one more gun before I have to flair my wings, and say "I'm done"...

FT[:D]


Age old question, is the juice worth the squeeze?

The 416 is a great gun, stupid accurate, last forever barrel, reliable piston system, and the special operations pedigree.

However, the price is what keeps it from being a no-brainer. For the price of just the upper alone, you can buy yourself a new KAC complete rifle with optics. You could also just select your favorite receivers, put the best parts you can afford into it, and still come out less than the price of a 416 upper.

I mainly got mine because I had the opportunity to buy consecutive numbered serial uppers, and I just wanted it.

[gatordev]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48838529721_d89fb056ec_b.jpg

[UWone77]

Figured I'd post the 416 Mount from Arisaka here too.

6929
6930

[UWone77]

6944

[mustangfreek]

That’s setup about perfect..

Want , on so many levels..

[usbp379]

If not already mentioned in the thread, this place has some parts as well as 416 pistols.

Not for the faint of heart...


https://hurricane-butterfly.net/

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[UWone77]

Surprised he reduced the price from 12.5k to 8.5

[usbp379]

Parts kits at Brownell's are out of stock. I always thought they were too expensive. I guess they weren't.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[UWone77]

Parts kits at Brownell's are out of stock. I always thought they were too expensive. I guess they weren't.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

The Hurricane Butterfly parts weren't all correct either. Wrong, bolt, barrel for starters. HK416 stuff is all overpriced. Juice isn't worth the squeeze at this point.

[Joelski]

Not baggin on these, cause if I shot at a range, I'd probably get one just for bragging rights (Be honest, why else?), but that just looks heavy AF.

[gatordev]

HK416 stuff is all overpriced. Juice isn't worth the squeeze at this point.

Welllll........I agree it's overpriced. But if my cost analysis spreadsheet ends up matching reality with what I'm working on, it has the potential to be worth the squeeze.


Not baggin on these, cause if I shot at a range, I'd probably get one just for bragging rights (Be honest, why else?), but that just looks heavy AF.

My optic setup is 1 oz less than UW's. I have the same optic config on a CQBR Block 2. The CQBR has a light but no PEQ. The 416 is definitely heavier, but it's not the end of the world, and I'm no body builder. UW also has a "slim" profile barrel, which helps. Yes, it's heavy, and a few ounces heavier than a like-built DI upper, but so is anything with a variable optic and light/laser/suppressor combo.

I'm not sure if the G-rail is heavier than the OEM Pic rail.

[UWone77]

Welllll........I agree it's overpriced. But if my cost analysis spreadsheet ends up matching reality with what I'm working on, it has the potential to be worth the squeeze.



My optic setup is 1 oz less than UW's. I have the same optic config on a CQBR Block 2. The CQBR has a light but no PEQ. The 416 is definitely heavier, but it's not the end of the world, and I'm no body builder. UW also has a "slim" profile barrel, which helps. Yes, it's heavy, and a few ounces heavier than a like-built DI upper, but so is anything with a variable optic and light/laser/suppressor combo.

I'm not sure if the G-rail is heavier than the OEM Pic rail.

If you found an AF, AG, AH upper for say... even $2600, that's still more than the cost of a SR15. Is just the upper better than a full DI KAC gun? To you and me, ehhhhhhhhhhhhh.... to the average consumer who can only have one of those, I'd say for 95% of shooters out there, the juice is not worth the squeeze.

For you and me.... I'll take 2 416's and 2 SR15's [:D]

[gatordev]

.... to the average consumer who can only have one of those, I'd say for 95% of shooters out there, the juice is not worth the squeeze.


In that sense, then yes, no argument from me. They don't do anything better than a quality DI gun for regular use.

I thought you were saying the 416 market to 416 seekers is loosing its juice/squeeze ratio as their prices go up and availability go down.

[Joelski]

Is approaching 10 years old. The industry needs a real game changer like the XM8 to perk things up. Maybe if they'd license it to BM... =8-0

[usbp379]

Is approaching 10 years old. The industry needs a real game changer like the XM8 to perk things up. Maybe if they'd license it to BM... =8-0https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/10/15/general-dynamics-next-generation-squad-weapon-the-rm277/

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Joelski]

Yeah, that'll never happen.

[gatordev]

Things are coming together...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48920479218_5e50132b3a_b.jpg

[gatordev]

This project spiraled out of control and went in a different direction than initially planned. Still very much a work in progress. Was going to swap out the muzzle device today after the range trip, but got busy. I think the optic will be temporary. Of note, with Will's mount, the Harris is actually lighter than the Atlas, according to my scale. Kind of cool.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48924460113_25352ee043_h.jpg

[gatordev]

Getting slightly more correct now...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48931334243_b41597f0e3_h.jpg

[UWone77]

Getting slightly more correct now...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48931334243_b41597f0e3_h.jpg

That's a beauty.

Still not doing one, but man that looks sooooooooo good. I should really throw another BRN-4 in the back of the safe for later. I know Brownells finally sold out of all the 416 and 417 kits... but they had 10x more lowers.

[gatordev]

That's a beauty.

Still not doing one, but man that looks sooooooooo good. I should really throw another BRN-4 in the back of the safe for later. I know Brownells finally sold out of all the 416 and 417 kits... but they had 10x more lowers.

Thanks. You keep saying you should get another one... But seriously, if you "aren't" going to do one, but want to think about how you "would" do it, let me know. Long story, but I know a guy.

Meanwhile, I think I've decided to switch to the NX8 for this and keep the ATACR on the M4B2. Sadly that means buying a set of NF rings, which of course, costs more money. This whole thing would be easier if there weren't budgetary concerns.

[gatordev]

One more picture after putting some more rounds through it today before I roll back into my work week...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48948263518_9031f7fe93_b.jpg

[UWone77]

You notice any accuracy differences between the 14.5 and the 10.4?

[gatordev]

You notice any accuracy differences between the 14.5 and the 10.4?

I don't know if I have enough data yet. The rifling on this one looks very good, so other than the rack wear, it seems like it's pretty healthy. So far I've only done some prone shooting with the 14.5 at 100y and it's been with either a HK trigger (which is smooth, but still heavy) or a G-trigger, but with either, I was fighting the optic quite a bit. That scope just isn't a good precision optic for the targets I use. I did manage a 1.1-ish group with some IMI 77gr, but with ball ammo, it's more towards 2-3". But again, I think a lot of that is the shooter.

My 10.4 just has the magnifier, so haven't done a tone grouping with it. It has always been great on B/C steel at 200y though.

I want to some more grouping with a better optic, but not sure what that means. What I have noticed is that shooting the 14.5 suppressed with vent is definitely better than without a vent. I think I'll be making that mod to the 10.4 eventually so I can take out the ridiculously heavy buffer I have in there.

[gatordev]

I guess it says something that I keep enjoying shooting this, even though it's not as smooth as a DI gun. I guess its pedigree sucks me in, but after running it out at 200m on a B/C target today, I still had plenty of fun. Now if I could just unload the MK6....

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49020532146_0294628b5b_k.jpg

[UWone77]

It almost looks better unsuppressed. The more you post this, the more I like it

[gatordev]

Gracias. I agree, which is why I've started shooting it more that way. It gets a little unwieldy with the bipod and can, but I can pop off the bipod easy enough and it's not bad. Personally I don't see a 14.5 very often anywhere but on "SEAL Team," so it's fun to be able to play with one.

[gatordev]

You notice any accuracy differences between the 14.5 and the 10.4?

I'm finding this rifle harder to shoot well when compared to a similar DI gun when shooting for accuracy. Here's a ten round group. The flier at 12 o'clock is all me (trigger press and I watched it happen), the other 2 or 3 seemed to show up when I would lose concentration on form just a little bit.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49164021286_3db509e0fa_b.jpg

Bottom line, at least for me, is it seems like a more technical rifle to shoot. Or maybe I've just lost my touch. Ammo is IMI "MK262" 77gr. I may try some Black hills next month, just to see how it does.

I also sold the MK6 to pay for the new optic. I'd argue it's an upgrade.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49164005133_e364fd3b63_b.jpg

[FortTom]

Still all kill shots Gatordev, maybe just an off day at the range?

FT[:D]

[UWone77]

I just don't think the piston makes for a smooth shooter.

Looking forward to some more follow up posts on accuracy though.

[gatordev]

Still all kill shots Gatordev, maybe just an off day at the range?

FT[:D]

I should have said that the gun was zeroed with IMI M193, so POIs being left was due to different ammo. But yes, even with the flier, all within 4". This time of year the sun gets to be a pain in the ass (right in the eyes above the objective), but I don't think I can blame that here.


I just don't think the piston makes for a smooth shooter.


Agreed.

[UWone77]

Have you heard that they've stopped importing 416's all together? Check on HKPRO and GunBroker, there are hardly any 416 listings. Lots of MR556 stuff, but I'm guessing the 416's have dried up.

[gatordev]

Have you heard that they've stopped importing 416's all together? Check on HKPRO and GunBroker, there are hardly any 416 listings. Lots of MR556 stuff, but I'm guessing the 416's have dried up.

There's one regular on there ("Brad...something") that seems to think the market isn't done yet and there's some people sitting on product. It also sounds like there's one or two individuals that still have access to PD guns that are trickling the uppers out every month or two.

I noticed the one guy trying to sell his AF upper for $4K finally sold it (I think), but that sat there for a long time. Will be interesting to see what happens to the market once Marvin's barrels make it out into the wild.

[UWone77]

There's one regular on there ("Brad...something") that seems to think the market isn't done yet and there's some people sitting on product. It also sounds like there's one or two individuals that still have access to PD guns that are trickling the uppers out every month or two.

I noticed the one guy trying to sell his AF upper for $4K finally sold it (I think), but that sat there for a long time. Will be interesting to see what happens to the market once Marvin's barrels make it out into the wild.

I agree it'll be interesting when Marvin's barrels drop. I've seen more than a few uppers/handguards for sale posts. I know this will drive the HK purists up the wall, but for a lot of people, it'll be like a "clone" and be good enough for their BRN4 lower, and may drive prices down.

[UWone77]

Apparently less than 90 of these actually made it to the states. Not

7215

[gatordev]

Did you end up grabbing one? That thread on HK Pro was one of the threads I was referencing. Not sure I believe everything that guy is putting out. I didn't realize the AU ones were tan...if that's one of them.

[UWone77]

7311

[UWone77]

Switched to an MLOK Maxim Defense 416 Handguard

7315

[UWone77]

7316

[gatordev]

If you have some financial setbacks, you can sell your G-rail for a kajillion dollars and it would be considered a steal.

[UWone77]

If you have some financial setbacks, you can sell your G-rail for a kajillion dollars and it would be considered a steal.

Are Geissele 416 rails hard to get and going for a bunch of coin now? I haven't been checking .... but I noticed G is always out of stock.

[usbp379]

Switched to an MLOK Maxim Defense 416 Handguard

7315That's the short scoop one?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[UWone77]

That's the short scoop one?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Correct.

[usbp379]

Correct.It looks nice. How's the feel and weight compared to the G?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[gatordev]

Are Geissele 416 rails hard to get and going for a bunch of coin now? I haven't been checking .... but I noticed G is always out of stock.

Geissele doesn't seem to be able to keep anything in stock other than SSA triggers. But yeah, the HK stuff is even harder to come by. I've been waiting for a MR556 trigger since Oct/November, but the back order keeps getting pushed out.

[UWone77]

It looks nice. How's the feel and weight compared to the G?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Maxim doesn't seem to have weights listed for the rail on their website, I don't have an unofficial weight on it, but it feels maybe slightly lighter? I think the G rail feels better in the hand, but the outdated attachment method vs the MLOK gives the slight edge to the Maxim Defense for me.


Geissele doesn't seem to be able to keep anything in stock other than SSA triggers. But yeah, the HK stuff is even harder to come by. I've been waiting for a MR556 trigger since Oct/November, but the back order keeps getting pushed out.

I've heard that the MR556 trigger has been MIA for over a year... I ordered a couple of bolt catches and a SSP trigger on 3/2. I just finally got it delivered last week. I guess this is the new norm there.

[UWone77]

7344

[n4p226r]

Figured I'd post the 416 Mount from Arisaka here too.

6929
6930


are you allowed to run a short HK416 with suppressor with anything other than an eotech? I mean....zero dark thirty and all

[usbp379]

7344How's the Maxam forend working?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[n4p226r]

Are there any good reference points to learn about all the 416 import stuff and what’s what? I see real 416 uppers. Uppers with no barrels. Lowers. Repro lowers. Etc.

[gatordev]

Are there any good reference points to learn about all the 416 import stuff and what’s what? I see real 416 uppers. Uppers with no barrels. Lowers. Repro lowers. Etc.

Honestly, the "easiest" answer is probably to just take some time either Googling questions using HKPro forums as your target or just perusing the 416 forums there and do a lot of reading. Summarizing very briefly:

Lowers:

HK 416...no longer found new, but some SOTs still have them. Select Fire.

HK416 SF...Very rare and worth a lot of money, but only if they have a letter from the ATF saying they've been removed from the registry and are Title 1 guns again. Semi auto.

BRN-4...Brownell's offerings, which aren't 100% accurate, but pretty good overall. They're sold out, but you can find them online from private sellers from time to time. Were made from HK forged blanks.

80% HK Forged lowers...pretty rare, though they pop up.

80% lowers...some guys make these from time to time.

Uppers (of various sizes):

Factory HK...usually take-offs from LE turn-ins. Various configurations can be found. Not cheap, but factory.

Non-factory HK...built by someone using all HK 416 parts. Worth less, but still up there since it's all HK. Sometimes you can find really interesting builds, like a complete IAR that's correct.

Franken HK...Mostly HK, but will have either Brownell's or Marvin Pitts parts. Maybe some day they'll have Geissele parts, but I'm not holding my breath at this point. Worth even less, but still very functional. Marvin Pitts' barrels are reported to be fantastic shooters.

I'm sure I haven't covered it all, but it gives you a place to start.

[n4p226r]

Honestly, the "easiest" answer is probably to just take some time either Googling questions using HKPro forums as your target or just perusing the 416 forums there and do a lot of reading. Summarizing very briefly:

Lowers:

HK 416...no longer found new, but some SOTs still have them. Select Fire.

HK416 SF...Very rare and worth a lot of money, but only if they have a letter from the ATF saying they've been removed from the registry and are Title 1 guns again. Semi auto.

BRN-4...Brownell's offerings, which aren't 100% accurate, but pretty good overall. They're sold out, but you can find them online from private sellers from time to time. Were made from HK forged blanks.

80% HK Forged lowers...pretty rare, though they pop up.

80% lowers...some guys make these from time to time.

Uppers (of various sizes):

Factory HK...usually take-offs from LE turn-ins. Various configurations can be found. Not cheap, but factory.

Non-factory HK...built by someone using all HK 416 parts. Worth less, but still up there since it's all HK. Sometimes you can find really interesting builds, like a complete IAR that's correct.

Franken HK...Mostly HK, but will have either Brownell's or Marvin Pitts parts. Maybe some day they'll have Geissele parts, but I'm not holding my breath at this point. Worth even less, but still very functional. Marvin Pitts' barrels are reported to be fantastic shooters.

I'm sure I haven't covered it all, but it gives you a place to start.



thanks. ill look into it. are these the brownells? brownells says they are in stock
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-4-stripped-lower-receiver-sku078000487-123850-228884.aspx?sku=078-000-487

[gatordev]

Those are the ones. Didn't realize they still had them.

[UWone77]

Those are the ones. Didn't realize they still had them.

Not surprised, they imported way more lowers than they were able to get uppers. After the uppers dried up, the only people left with any interested were the ones that had real 416 uppers here.

[gatordev]

Not surprised, they imported way more lowers than they were able to get uppers. After the uppers dried up, the only people left with any interested were the ones that had real 416 uppers here.

Or those who might have been customers moved on to other things. I understand your overall point, but I have all the parts for a third upper that would look great on a third lower that I don't have (plus some engraving), but between having other interests in life and the ammo shortage, it's not really worth my effort and time right now, especially when HK parts are limited.

Of course the forward thinking shooter may argue the time to buy one is now and sit on it until you can make something of it. And that's a valid argument....one I don't appreciate given I have some excess cash right now.

Thanks for nothing.

[n4p226r]

Are those lowers Only compatible with HK uppers? Is the price the main reason they don’t get bought for regular AR clones?

[gatordev]

Is the price the main reason they don’t get bought for regular AR clones?

Probably.


Are those lowers Only compatible with HK uppers?

No, they're compatible with AR15s as well.

[UWone77]

How's the Maxam forend working?

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Cheaper than the Geissele, more refined than the MI Rails. I like the MLOK positions. Maxim always makes a good product. Not as operator as the Geissele, but catering to such a niche market, I'm surprised this product even exists. I'm guessing it's only because the PDX uses the same rail they developed it.

[UWone77]

Looks like Brownells has the BRN-4 for $249 now

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-4-stripped-lower-receiver-prod123850.aspx?avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=Salezz1zzClearance%7cRebate

[n4p226r]

is there any reason that HK can't sell actual semi auto 416 rifles and SBRs complete in the US other than the fact that they would have to manufacture them here for the most part and because HK is HK?

[gatordev]

is there any reason that HK can't sell actual semi auto 416 rifles and SBRs complete in the US other than the fact that they would have to manufacture them here for the most part and because HK is HK?

I think the big issue is that not all of the parts can come into the US to make it a 416 due to the German government. The MR556s don't have the same components (AR15 carrier, non-German/non-CL barrel, etc), so they "can't" (and shouldn't) be sold as 416s. Could they work around this? I'm guessing yes and start making a few components state-side, but I guess they don't wanna.

I've been out of the HK realm for the last couple of months but started paying attention the last couple of days again. It's interesting...it looks like 416s are starting to creep back up in price.

[n4p226r]

I think the big issue is that not all of the parts can come into the US to make it a 416 due to the German government. The MR556s don't have the same components (AR15 carrier, non-German/non-CL barrel, etc), so they "can't" (and shouldn't) be sold as 416s. Could they work around this? I'm guessing yes and start making a few components state-side, but I guess they don't wanna.

I've been out of the HK realm for the last couple of months but started paying attention the last couple of days again. It's interesting...it looks like 416s are starting to creep back up in price.


ah. I didn't realize it was German law stopping the export. I thought it was US law stopping the import. Either way though, it's not like manufacturing in US couldn't handle building to the right spec to equal the German stuff they can't export.

[UWone77]

ah. I didn't realize it was German law stopping the export. I thought it was US law stopping the import. Either way though, it's not like manufacturing in US couldn't handle building to the right spec to equal the German stuff they can't export.

Most people online that constantly complain about how HK hates the civilian market, can't wrap their head around the German export laws, which are the real problem.

You should have seen the tizzy some were having when Hurricane Butterfly imported some 416C lowers to the US and charged 12K for a somewhat complete HK gun.

[n4p226r]

Most people online that constantly complain about how HK hates the civilian market, can't wrap their head around the German export laws, which are the real problem.

You should have seen the tizzy some were having when Hurricane Butterfly imported some 416C lowers to the US and charged 12K for a somewhat complete HK gun.

how much of the gun are they restricted from exporting? im actually mostly surprised that the military contract isn't requiring them to be built here in the US.

didn't they finally release a civilian mp5 in the US? I assume that means we can get real (semi-auto) 416 in 2043 right?

[gatordev]

how much of the gun are they restricted from exporting? im actually mostly surprised that the military contract isn't requiring them to be built here in the US.

didn't they finally release a civilian mp5 in the US? I assume that means we can get real (semi-auto) 416 in 2043 right?

Exporting to the military (a NATO ally) and exporting to the civilian market is part of the problem. Even if HK has a footprint in the US doesn't mean it's controlled by US people. It's still a German company that's governed by German law. Also, my understanding is that the IAR barrel still comes from Germany, even if it may be assembled here (which I'm honestly not sure if it is).

The civilian MP5 (called a SP5 and SP5K) are both pistols, so it's classified differently by the German government. Hence why you can still buy other HK pistols.

[gatordev]

I just don't think the piston makes for a smooth shooter.

Looking forward to some more follow up posts on accuracy though.

Revisiting this...I think part of the issue is trying to shoot groups with what is essentially a 1.8" mount (if I'm doing my math and caliper study correct). I've seen similar issues shooting my DI guns with a 1.93" mount. Also interesting to note that today I paid particular attention to shooting this rifle with and without a suppressor on the clock (with a pistol transition). Nothing fancy, and no movement, just 2 targets with a total of 6 rifle shots and 4 pistol shots. Recoil impulse was noticeably less with the can and the timer agreed (when I didn't waste time trying to find my pistol dot or having a self-induced pistol slide malfunction). Thanks to the gas vent, the brass would eject to the same position, with or without the can (both an over-gassed position, but that's life).

Anywho, pic for attention.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369282797_1f074a007e_h.jpg

[Joelski]

What, other than the safety markings, stands this lower apart from a standard Colt/Mil Spec lower receiver? It sure looks like nothing to my untrained eye. What improvements/innovations justify that price, because there are less expensive plain lowers that you can add your own HK laser engraving to for a lot less cash. It's Brownell's FFS, not H&K.



Looks like Brownells has the BRN-4 for $249 now

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-4-stripped-lower-receiver-prod123850.aspx?avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=Salezz1zzClearance%7cRebate

[gatordev]

What, other than the safety markings, stands this lower apart from a standard Colt/Mil Spec lower receiver? It sure looks like nothing to my untrained eye. What improvements/innovations justify that price, because there are less expensive plain lowers that you can add your own HK laser engraving to for a lot less cash. It's Brownell's FFS, not H&K.

It's actually a HK forged receiver, finished by PWS. How much that matters to you is up to you, but it did begin life on a HK machine. PWS did a couple of things that are frustrating, but not world ending. As for additions, a BRN-4 has the buffer retainer hole for the buffer retainer assembly (pin and spring) as well as the flared magwell (although some will complain about the design). It also has a lowered shelf, if that's your jam. But like anything that costs more than "normal," it's up to the individual buyer to make the call if it's worth the price.

[UWone77]

I was actually using my Colt Lowers to shoot my 416 uppers before the BRN4's were avail. I did it for pure aesthetics, nothing more.

[gatordev]

You ever have a plan, acquire 90% of the parts, then something else comes along that nullifies your original plan, but now you have all these spare parts lying around? Then the last 10% of the parts show up/come available? Yeah, that's what happened to me.

Quick and dirty picture for illustration.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50548103186_061a5117f9_h.jpg

[gatordev]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50564014611_aad600cf75_h.jpg

[mustangfreek]

Those stocks just look fugly and awkward?..

Like a mix of LMT/magpul/KAK/and grandpas 3” rubber buttpad on his shotty..lol

[gatordev]

I agree. I also can't stand the grip. For now, the grip will be changed out to a TD grip. The stock is more problematic, as it's on a commercial RE, which is actually a bit longer than a milspec, which then affects LOP, and then...well, it's a house of cards.

[mustangfreek]

Huh...I’m surprised and curious why they use the comm size tubes.

[UWone77]

I think this is the final config of this rifle. All black, and backup HK sights.

7686

[tact]

I think this is the final config of this rifle. All black, and backup HK sights.

7686

Very nice...

[n4p226r]

I need that exact setup. (maybe with a BCM grip though). first I need a 2nd home in a SBR friendly state.

[usbp379]

I like the 416 and would like to see HK do two things for the US market:

Make a civilian A5 to include the ambi controls, latest gas block and mag well profile.

Lighten the barrel profile. No need for a bull barrel for most applications. Or make two variants. Bull barrel target model and a lighter profile "patrol" model.



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[n4p226r]

does the HK upper have a higher height rail over a standard AR upper? I wonder if this is a better solution that other regular AR manufacturers should consider since we see the popularity of the unity riser and now bobro has a riser as well. if that extra height can be incorporated into the upper and the rail, then standard lower 1/3 mounts could work to get that more upright head position as well as allow standard BUIS to be used.

[BoilerUp]

does the HK upper have a higher height rail over a standard AR upper? I wonder if this is a better solution that other regular AR manufacturers should consider since we see the popularity of the unity riser and now bobro has a riser as well. if that extra height can be incorporated into the upper and the rail, then standard lower 1/3 mounts could work to get that more upright head position as well as allow standard BUIS to be used.

I hope not. Ideally, you want your sight radius as close to the bore as possible. The main reason the AR sights sit so high above the bore is because the receiver extension (buffer tube) prevents a dropped stock design like you see on pretty much ever other rifle. The only reason I would consider, and one reason I believe some extended height options exist, is to accommodate certain night vision / thermal optics. If you want a more upright head position, simply bring the sights up to your head instead of the other way around and accept the fact that the top of your stock may be above your shoulder. Given the recoil of the 5.56, this isn't, or shouldn't be an issue.

[gatordev]

Yes, the rail sits higher. With a regular 1.5" mount, my rough ruler math says the overall height is about 1.8"-ish. This is also why Larue has had "HK Height" mounts for RDS for a long time...it lowers the optic to still give some sort of co-witness and not be super high (relatively).


I hope not. Ideally, you want your sight radius as close to the bore as possible. The main reason the AR sights sit so high above the bore is because the receiver extension (buffer tube) prevents a dropped stock design like you see on pretty much ever other rifle. The only reason I would consider, and one reason I believe some extended height options exist, is to accommodate certain night vision / thermal optics. If you want a more upright head position, simply bring the sights up to your head instead of the other way around and accept the fact that the top of your stock may be above your shoulder. Given the recoil of the 5.56, this isn't, or shouldn't be an issue.

I disagree. I find the mechanics, as they apply to my body anyway, to be more stable with the sight height higher (let's forget about whether it's a 416 or not) and the butt in my shoulder pocket than the butt some distance over my shoulder. Does that sacrifice eye position in the prone? Absolutely, but if it's a rifle where I'm not in the prone much, then I'll take that sacrifice. For the record, I don't shoot NTCH, so no doubt that's part of my body mechanics which probably comes into play.

Badger Ordnance's COMM mount at 1.7 seems to be a nice sweet spot if it's not a dedicated precision setup. I only have a little time behind mine before my Vortex went tits up, but I liked what I was seeing across the shooting positions.

I do find the 416 with a 1.5" mount to be "not quite right" in the prone given that 1.8"-ish total height, at least with the tiny eyebox'ed NX8. It's doable, but I do see accuracy suffer due to muscle strain.

[UWone77]

7704

[UWone77]

7708

[n4p226r]

which lower is that?

[UWone77]

which lower is that?

Brownells BRN-4, lasered with HK markings.

[n4p226r]

That’s what I thought. Does brownells mark it on the front of the magwell?

[UWone77]

That’s what I thought. Does brownells mark it on the front of the magwell?

Correct

[UWone77]

I haven't paid much attention until recently to the 416 market. Looks like after the Brownells lowers dried up, those are now a hot commodity. I should have picked up another when gator and I were talking about a 14.5" build.

10.4" uppers have also dried up and uber tough to find even at 4k. Looks like those PD trade in supply has all but disappeared.

[gatordev]

I got an email today from Weapon Outfitters advertising 10.4" barrels with the Hurricane Butterfly label on them, but it also says they're made in the US. I would doubt Marvin would be making them since he already was selling them through his shop. I guess someone else got contracted to make some.

No interest from my end, but thought I'd mention it.

[Joelski]

.

10.4" uppers have also dried up and uber tough to find even at 4k.

Check with the Taliban.

[UWone77]

Check with the Taliban.

I think they just have all the Colt Lowers the Cloners are looking for.

[Aragorn]

Check with the Taliban.

ZING!

Be funny if it wasn’t true. Think they’d give me a good price on an aircraft?

[Joelski]

I think they just have all the Colt Lowers the Cloners are looking for.Nope. I saw a pic of a Tali with one.

[Joelski]

ZING!

Be funny if it wasn’t true. Think they’d give me a good price on an aircraft?You could probably score a Blackhawk for some cases of 7.62x39...

I'm sure they have change-averse people too...

[gatordev]

An impulse buy, but they were on "sale." Pardon the weed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52281818148_4059bb4da5_b.jpg

[Jerry R]

An impulse buy, but they were on "sale." Pardon the weed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52281818148_4059bb4da5_b.jpg

Nice !

[Joelski]

Nice score! Other than the stupid price and limited supply keeping the price even stupider, what happened to the Geissele rails? Seems like every rifle I've seen lately has the stock rail on it.

[UWone77]

An impulse buy, but they were on "sale." Pardon the weed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52281818148_4059bb4da5_b.jpg

Aren't you glad you picked up that extra Brownells Lower way back when?

Those are now going for stupid money now that they've dried up. Weird how that works out.

[gatordev]

Nice score! Other than the stupid price and limited supply keeping the price even stupider, what happened to the Geissele rails? Seems like every rifle I've seen lately has the stock rail on it.

I don't really pay attention to G-availability nowadays, other than keeping an eye out for MR556 triggers (I'd like to have one more). However, I believe the original HK rail was discontinued and replaced by the newer model that has the same compatible lockup system. I don't know the models, but I think UW has one.


Aren't you glad you picked up that extra Brownells Lower way back when?

Indeed. And I was glad to pick up the one after that, too. The M27 needed the "correct" engraving for my OCD. (It's since been updated with the correct lens covers and VFG/bipod. I just don't have a picture of it.)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50548103186_f049d9796c_b.jpg

[UWone77]

I don't really pay attention to G-availability nowadays, other than keeping an eye out for MR556 triggers (I'd like to have one more). However, I believe the original HK rail was discontinued and replaced by the newer model that has the same compatible lockup system. I don't know the models, but I think UW has one.



Indeed. And I was glad to pick up the one after that, too. The M27 needed the "correct" engraving for my OCD. (It's since been updated with the correct lens covers and VFG/bipod. I just don't have a picture of it.)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50548103186_f049d9796c_b.jpg

That looks great man.

I somewhat regret not grabbing a few more BRN lowers when they dropped to $199... but I definitely don't regret not having to buy another 416 upper to satisfy my OCD for competition.

[gatordev]

Most of that is from a Brownell's kit that sat in a box for at least a year after buying it. When the Pitts barrels became available, I figured I could finally build what I had bought and so then I had to grab the lower. So yeah, having one caused the other, all thanks to OCD.

[Joelski]

Most of that is from a Brownell's kit that sat in a box for at least a year after buying it. When the Pitts barrels became available, I figured I could finally build what I had bought and so then I had to grab the lower. So yeah, having one caused the other, all thanks to OCD.

I don't feel nearly as bad about OCDing that fake URGI build! (About 1/4 as bad, maybe...) [:D]

[UWone77]

I don't feel nearly as bad about OCDing that fake URGI build! (About 1/4 as bad, maybe...) [:D]

I can't remember, what lower did you use for that URGI build?

[Joelski]

Geissele.

[UWone77]

Geissele.

One of these days that was my plan. I've got a couple of G Lowers for a URGI but definitely not in a rush to get a $1250 upper at full price. So how's she shoot?

[gatordev]

I blame MARSOC and UWone for this... This upper fell into my lap while researching the feasibility in building one.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53273126996_d3b502d7ad_h.jpg

[Joelski]

One of these days that was my plan. I've got a couple of G Lowers for a URGI but definitely not in a rush to get a $1250 upper at full price. So how's she shoot?Okay, over a year late but I just saw this, so you probably have a couple by now. [:D]

I do most of my shooting on private property, so that means I plink, and creek stomp with my guns. It's a crazy fun free-form plinker! The caliber makes it way cheaper to shoot than my .300 blk SBR.

[Stone]

"I blame MARSOC and UWone for this... This upper fell into my lap while researching the feasibility in building one"You run under the MARSOC umbrella, are you 0372?

[gatordev]

You run under the MARSOC umbrella, are you 0372?

Uh, no. But MARSOC is deploying with these uppers on their M27 lowers now and I was toying with building a clone. As it turns out, Marvin Pitts started making/selling clone A5 upper parts, which is what I was initially looking at getting and building up from there until this upper was offered up for sale to me.

This particular upper isn't factory assembled, but other than the barrel and gas regulator (and SFA2 FH), all of the parts are HK A5 parts and not cloned A5 (or Brownell's) parts, which is what is mostly out in the 416A5 market right now.

[Stone]

Actually I beleive its 0321 thats deploying with those and I beleive they fall under FMF. Regardless its a badass rifle nonetheless...