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zero7one
28 March 2009, 08:53
If you could only upgrade or add three components to a new "stock" AR, what would they be? Add a comment to explain your answer.

zero7one
28 March 2009, 09:04
Just for clarification.....the 3 options are not the end of your rifle build, just for the beginning. Your selections should be based on the thought that if you only had enough money to purchase any three of these options, what three would you buy first? Further upgrades could occur later.

federalist22
28 March 2009, 09:22
Let's say this was a project on a budget and had to be built over time. I would base my upgrade priorities on two factors: function and comfort. The first three things I would upgrade are the stock, handguard/rail, and front/rear BUIS.

1. The stock is first because there are a lot of differnet applications for a rifle. I recently purchased a S&W M&P MP15ORC, which had a fixed, pinned carbine stick on it with a buffer tube (receiver extension) that would not support a simple swap out--the whole thing had to be replaced. The stock is both comfort and function.

2. The handguard/rail upgrade is important because this provides you with a platform from which you can add other upgrades for function and comfort (i.e. grips, front BUIS, some optics, lights, lasers, sling mounts, etc.).

3. My MP15ORC (Optics Ready Compliant - ORC) did not come with any sights, just a flattop rail and Picatinny gas block on level with the receiver flattop. The BUIS comes next because iron sights are fundamental to the weapon in case an optic fails.

The grip is the next thing I would tackle because its both comfort and function depending on which make you choose, plus its an easy and cheap upgrade. Optics are expensive for the right ones, lasers/lights are used by few outside of LE/MIL, and triggers are almost never a priority.

scumhunter
28 March 2009, 10:33
Since the gun should be able to go “bang” out of the box, my first upgrade would be a weapon mounted light. My first priority is to have the ability to identify and hit any threats that needs my attention.
My second upgrade would be a sling mount and sling. Weapon retention and the ability to subdue and cuff with or without sending rounds down range is right up there. Since most of my rifle deployments are at night I put the light at #1 but the sling and mount are a very close 2nd.
A quality collapsible stock is my third choice for an upgrade. I want a solid platform to get rounds on target. The ability to shorten the weapon for interior work is a “must have” in my book.

103m 95g
28 March 2009, 11:50
#1Light, during Katrina it was very dark at night, no electricity for several weeks
#2(other) sling, didn't see an option for just a sling
#3 optic, I like an Eotech

Army Chief
28 March 2009, 11:54
From a baseline configuration such as an LE6920 or N4 Basic, I went with (1) a light, (2) optics -- I'm over 40 -- and (3) PMAGs, which would fall into the "other" category.

While a number of the other components are desirable and definitely have their place, my off-duty applications don't require much more than a way to see the target and/or a way to tell what I'm aiming at in low light. The PMAGs aren't essential, as USGI mags are usually more than up to the task; I just happen to like the windowed-PMAG. As for the rest, I can generally work with stock iron sights, sling points, stocks, pistol grips and handguards.

AC

adrenaline151
28 March 2009, 13:49
I voted BUIS, optics, and light. Lights, camera, action, so to speak. You have to be able to put rounds on target, accurately, and in the dark, or else you've got a nice rifle, but you could still be defenseless. Aimed fire is always superior to "spray and pray".

TehLlama
29 March 2009, 07:32
Light. Requisite equipment.
Handguard (something railed for mounting light)
Adjustable Stock (if applicable to user: I'm fine with an A2 stock, but I'm in the minority with that one.

Sling. Also requisite, but just requires 550 at bare minimum, so it's #4.

Army Chief
29 March 2009, 07:41
I would have gone with the handguard option, too, but in view of the MOE/sectional rail option, I guess I felt that this was likely to be considered more or less standard equipment. Fully agree that a mounting solution is a requisite consideration here.

AC

rob_s
29 March 2009, 08:42
light, red dot, sling.

Specifically, Surefire X300, Aimpoint C3 in ADM or Larue mount, BFG Victory sling.

If truly relegated to three mods, I'd take a bench grinder to that finger groove on the A2 pistol grip.

GriffonSec
29 March 2009, 17:46
After quite of bit of reading this board, figured this would be the best spot for a first post, considering I'm in this exact spot at the moment with mine.

1. Stock. Honestly, I kinda feel that the stock and grip should be combined, since it is a comfort thing. 'Feel better shoot better'.

2. Hanguard/rail. For later options, and kinda knocks out one of the most expensive add-ons, aside from optics. (BUIS was a neck and neck choice here)

3. Other. Classes. Reminds me of my open track hobby. Tons of questions to "What part do I add to my car (insert brand here) to make it faster?" Tighten the nut behind the wheel. I think the same principle applies here. Personal shooting improvement/skills I feel is one of the best modifications to the weapon. Tighten the nut squeezing the trigger."

Army Chief
29 March 2009, 22:05
You're certainly on the right track (no pun intended), and I think most of us woud agree with your philosophy. We're talking hardware here, but it's true that the tools are, in and of themselves, largely irrelevant without a competent operator.

Like you, I've been fortunate to log a lot of track time over the past decade, and when I was qualifying for a German DMSB Class A racing license, I spent a lot of time on the vaunted Nürburgring. The old circuit is admittedly treacherous, and I always found it interesting how a skilled driver in a hopelessly underpowered economy car could routinely blow the doors off of a Ferrari or Porsche with a wealthy poseur at the wheel.

So it is with arms. Having the money and drive to assemble a fine collection gains you nothing if you are unwilling to invest in the acquisition of skills. Again, this is a hardware-centric thread, but if you're wondering if we happen to share your mindset, the answer is a resounding "yes."

Welcome to the site!

AC

Army Chief
29 March 2009, 22:34
I'm not in the habit of cross-pollinating, but if you haven't seen this post on M4CN (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=28658), you probably need to stop what you're doing and go read it.

As usual, Rob cuts through a lot of the fog and gets right to the central issues that we've been examining here. There isn't a thing in the world wrong with upgrading one's tools, but we all fight the tendency to get the cart before the horse to at one time or another.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion on AR component upgrades, already in progress. :)

AC

GriffonSec
30 March 2009, 06:17
Thanks for the welcome, and point taken. I mainly went that direction due to the cost involved in classes.

Strictly components? Swap classes out for BUIS.

Army Chief
30 March 2009, 06:23
Lest there be any misunderstanding, the "you" in post #13 (above) was intended to be the collective you, as in "anyone that is taking the time to read this thread" -- not any one member in particular.

Don't want to give you a complex on your second day here, GS. [:D]

AC

rob_s
30 March 2009, 06:35
Actually, what AC and GS are saying is really the same thing in a lot of ways. In my post on M4C that AC links to you'll see at least one poster suggesting getting out to classes and matches as a way to try out other folk's gear and see what works for you.

and it all dovetails nicely into the point of this thread, which is that you can get 98% of the way "there" with only three additions to the carbine (outside of the obvious ammo, mags, training).

GriffonSec
30 March 2009, 07:20
AC, I got that, no worries.

Rob, good point on trying out gear at classes. I'm stuck on the optics solution (Aimpoint/Trij RX30) or a good 1-4, and classes will give me better grounds

Ya'll have your thread back!

CAPT KIRK
30 March 2009, 08:27
While many other options are arguable as to thier priority I will say just this....

Any experienced LEO will tell you that most shootings happen in the dark, be it at night or while in contact inside of a building. That being said, the ability to see your target and good target discrimination is crucial.

My point being... first things first, get a light on it, even if you have to duct tape a $10 mini Maglight to it....

P.S. An illuminated target also helps backlight standard iron sights which otherwise would be useless in the dark.

Echo4Tango
21 June 2009, 03:16
When Chief said "stock rifle" I immediately thought of my issued weapon. I have been issued A2's, A4's and M4's and if I could have changed any three things about them it would have gone something like this;

1- Optic: If you can't see it, or see it fast enough; your weapon is about worthless.

2- Barrel: In my experience these service rifles are good for about 3-4 MOA. If I had a 3/4 or even a 1 MOA rifle my margin for error is 3-4 times greater. That allows me to shoot quicker, with much more confidence without having to make a 'perfect' shot each time.

And 3- This is a close tie between a good stock and a good trigger, but Im giving it to the trigger. While there are some great stocks out there I dont see a stock as a must have. I see it as more of a comfort issue. A service trigger plain sucks. It’s long, gritty, has bumps and catches and outside of a CQB environment, (where you frame the target, press, search and assess) you need something substantially better. A good trigger increases accuracy and builds confidence.

Now I know there are some essentials out there like lights, slings ect. But like Capt. Kirk and TehLlama already pointed out; you can duct tape a $10 Mag light to the rails and use a bit of 550 cord (or just about anything else) as a sling. Good options? No. But you cant jimmy-rig a good optic, barrel and trigger and those are the things I wish I’d had over and over again on my issued rifles over the years.

PMags, ammo, and courses are essential things but... not part of the actual rifle IMO.

That’s what this dumb grunt would do anyway ;)

puffy93
21 June 2009, 21:26
Here's mine:

1. Optic- you can see target more clearly and get on target faster

2. Rail- a system for mounting light, laser, VFG, ETC. To come later.

3. Other (suppressor)- quiets shot to manageable level so ear protection is not required.

Creeky73
23 June 2009, 13:04
Tossing in my 2 cents here. I voted pistol grip, handguard and optic, and not necessarily in that order. It seems as if not changing the pistol grip would be almost a crime, due to the low cost, ease of install, and so many options available that you are bound to find something you like better than stock. I was surprised at the amount of people who voted for collapsible stock on the poll...not because I don't agree that going from a non-collapsible to a collapsible isn't a huge upgrade, but it seems at this point if you bought a gun that did not have a tactical stock, you pretty much just wanted a fixed stock. Even the cheapest AR's out there today have 5 position stocks for the most part.

Rob, I read your post on the M4 website, and I thought I might offer up something on this. Consider that most guys, by nature, are "tinkerers." if we can work on it, change it or upgrade it fairly easy, it is in the nature of man to meddle with it. Cars, houses, yards, guns, you name it, if we can mess with it, we WILL mess with it. I know that tinkering with guns is nothing new, but unless you want to talk about Ruger 10/22's, there aren't many guns on the market that upgrade as easy, or have as many parts out there. My guess is that a lot of the people who are "gear queers" as a buddy of mine at work (who served in Iraq in the 90's) calls them, I bet a lot of them are upgrading just because they can, or because it will make their guns more militant or serious-looking. I don't know that they are really thinking any further than that.