Issue w/ Elf trigger / Safety

[Aragorn]

So I got an Elftmann Match Trigger. I love the finger placement, the break... it has all the hallmarks of a fantastic trigger... except one.

I can actuate the safety to the safe position with the hammer decocked. I hate that. I tried it with two mil-spec safeties and a Battle Arms Development. The BAD will hesitate at half a throw, but can still be actuated with a small/medium amount of additional force. I like the trigger, I want to keep it, but I won't if my safety isn't acting normal.

I talked to the guy who runs Elftmann and he said they have had issues like that before, which is why they made their own safety, and promised me it would work.

Problem is, there is no way in hell I'm putting a push-button safety on an AR.

But now this begs the question, is it a tolerance thing? Would a different (I.e. better, in some way?) safety work properly? I'd be willing to buy one if it garaunteed me proper, normal function.

The trigger I was swapping out is a SD-E, a fine trigger in its own right. With it my safety has some play. It doesn't wobble or anything, but it will yield about 1/3 throw if depressed with the hammer decocked, then stop like its hit a wall.

[SINNER]

Why is it manufacturers always have a lame excuse to cover that their product is poorly designed and/or machined? Known issue so let’s sell band aids for it.

If it does not work with a mil spec safety I’d run far away.

[Aragorn]

Well, that's kinda what I'm doing. Supposedly he'll get me taken care of Monday, I'm just seeing if there's an opportunity for a last minute save.

[KW900A]

That explains why those goofy push button safetys turned up. I wondered whose bright idea that was.

[SINNER]

It has to be frustrating but I’d never trust the safety on it. Just the way I am.

It’s the reason I took the Geissele triggers out of my SCAR’s. It you swung the safety a millimeter the weapon would fire. Gone after first range trip.

[voodoo_man]

I've got an le mil flat service trigger.

Never had that issue and just tried this again.

[KW900A]

It has to be frustrating but I’d never trust the safety on it. Just the way I am.

It’s the reason I took the Geissele triggers out of my SCAR’s. It you swung the safety a millimeter the weapon would fire. Gone after first range trip.

Good way to be... If the safety can’t/won’t do it’s job as intended, you’re playing with fire.

[Aragorn]

I've got an le mil flat service trigger.

Never had that issue and just tried this again.

Maybe I've just got bad luck. It's in my Rainier lower, I've noticed any normal 3 piece trigger I drop in isn't as crisp as it is if I try it in my other lowers. Mine is the Match, maybe I need to look at the LW MIL and see what the differences are. It is badass, just the safety thing...


Good way to be... If the safety can’t/won’t do it’s job as intended, you’re playing with fire.

I feel. Safety functions normally when the rifle is charged. It can be on safe and it won't drop the hammer. Just feels wrong to be able to manipulate the safety with the weapon decocked.

[SINNER]

I was going to ask you if you tried it in another lower but I figured if you talked to the manufacturer that would be first thing on the list.

[Aragorn]

I was going to ask you if you tried it in another lower but I figured if you talked to the manufacturer that would be first thing on the list.

Actually to be honest I didn't. I have an engraved lower that is my favorite (the Rainier). I didn't try others because that's the specific gun I want to put it in, with that lower. No sense in putting what would be my nicest trigger in an AR that plays second fiddle to my primary.

[VIPER 237]

I had one of their triggers go to shit in under 2500 rounds. That being said the push button safety is pretty slick.

[Aragorn]

I had one of their triggers go to shit in under 2500 rounds. That being said the push button safety is pretty slick.

Really...? It's always struck me as gimmicky. Sounds like you've tried one? I'd be worried about the safety getting bumped off when slinging the weapon.

[voodoo_man]

My elf is in my wevo Rainier lower.

The le mil.service trigger isn't as light as others they make...so maybe that's it.

[Aragorn]

My elf is in my wevo Rainier lower.

The le mil.service trigger isn't as light as others they make...so maybe that's it.

I think I've seen the build your talking about. The WEVO Rainer lower was billet right? Mine is forged, so prob not as tight on the tolerances.

[Default.mp3]

Just feels wrong to be able to manipulate the safety with the weapon decocked.Interesting. Personally, I wish I could put my AR on safe no matter the condition of the weapon. Same reason I dislike 1911s.

[voodoo_man]

I think I've seen the build your talking about. The WEVO Rainer lower was billet right? Mine is forged, so prob not as tight on the tolerances.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfhKIRmBiGX/

[Aragorn]

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking. Sweet set up.

[voodoo_man]

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking. Sweet set up.

Thanks.

I am a fan of it. Also I have the noveske/magpul ambi (scar-type) safety for it - maybe that is a coincidental combo which makes them work?

[SINNER]

Thanks.

I am a fan of it. Also I have the noveske/magpul ambi (scar-type) safety for it - maybe that is a coincidental combo which makes them work?

My favorite ambi safety. And a steal of a price. Nice crisp feel to the detents.

[Aragorn]

Well, I need one more safety anyways, and since you both like that one, maybe I'll give it a shot. One last Hail Mary for the trigger.

[Aragorn]

Anyone tried the Elf cross bar safety on their AR? Thoughts?

I have some concern that it could get depressed and thus selected to fire while slinging the weapon, but in talking to the owner his response for that was a dismissive "Hm, I'd like to see that."

So instead, I'm asking YOU guys, who DON'T have a vested interest in selling one. Have you tried one? Thoughts? Experience? Opinions?

I tried the trigger, felt great but wouldn't function properly with three different safeties, so I even purchased a Noveske/Magpul STS and that didn't solve it either. So yeah... FOUR safeties.

The owner garaunteed it would work with his safety, but I'm not sold on swapping over to a brand new way of operating an AR safety, as mentioned with my above concerns.


I took a video of my issue and sent it to elf, and the trigger is going back for testing.

[Aragorn]

Tried that trigger in two more lowers tonight. A gen 2 Noveske and an Umbrella billet. Both are super tight lowers.

Trigger still didn't allow proper function of the safety. So, ruled out the lowers being the problem. Trigger is getting shipped back in the morning.

So, to summarize, that's FOUR different safeties and THREE different lowers.

[Aragorn]

What a mess. Elftmann told me they couldn't replicate the problem and that every single lower I own is apparently out of spec.

Yeah... my ass.

I had to get an RMA from where I bought it, forward it to Elf, and then have THEM send it back to the retailer. WTF is the retailer supposed to do with it???? Anyways that was all last Friday, still haven't received word on if they've shipped it back yet.

I'll also add that the majority of times I've tried to contact them I was unable, and most of my calls, texts (they owner gave me his number), and voicemails went unheeded. Not ALL of them, but definitely MOST. Communication was a nightmare, and is continuing to be so. I won't be dealing with anything Elfmann ever again.

[voodoo_man]

What a mess. Elftmann told me they couldn't replicate the problem and that every single lower I own is apparently out of spec.

Yeah... my ass.

I had to get an RMA from where I bought it, forward it to Elf, and then have THEM send it back to the retailer. WTF is the retailer supposed to do with it???? Anyways that was all last Friday, still haven't received word on if they've shipped it back yet.

I'll also add that the majority of times I've tried to contact them I was unable, and most of my calls, texts (they owner gave me his number), and voicemails went unheeded. Not ALL of them, but definitely MOST. Communication was a nightmare, and is continuing to be so. I won't be dealing with anything Elfmann ever again.

That's unfortunate to hear.

[Aragorn]

The shit show saga has drawn to a conclusion. With no luck dealing with Elftmann I contacted Rainier. I guess they managed to put pressure on Elftmann and got them to send them a replacement trigger. Not sure what all took place behind the scenes, just got my refund this weekend.

So for those keeping score at home, that was nearly two months of dealing with Elftmann and their dick dance. They've been added to my VERY short list of manufacturers I'll never do business with again. However, all's well that ends well, and UPS tracking shows I should have my lower back on Wednesday, with a fresh factory installed JP Armageddon Revolution trigger.

[KW900A]

Good to hear you got it worked out. Unfortunately someone had to force their hand it sounds.

[Former11B]

All that mess and you still didn’t buy a Geissele [BD]

[Aragorn]

All that mess and you still didn’t buy a Geissele [BD]

I have Geissele's. My favorite of them so far being my SD-E, but I want a single stage and even less creep. My favorite break on any of my triggers come from my LaRue MBT's installed in my billet lowers. They're ULTRA crisp, but just due to luck of the draw on tolerances, slightly less so on my Rainier forged lower. Also I prefer a flat trigger which the MBT doesn't have.

The hope is that with all the installation adjustability and a JP Custom Shop install that'll I'll end up with an MBT like break, all while being single stage with a flat trigger. I DID get the roller version. Their logic behind it makes sense, and I figured that as inexpensive as their custom install is, why not get all the options? The install was only an additional $20, and that INCLUDED return shipping.

[SINNER]

I would have dropped a CMC in that lower and never thought twice. Fantastic single stage triggers and flat blades.

[Aragorn]

I would have dropped a CMC in that lower and never thought twice. Fantastic single stage triggers and flat blades.

You know I actually tried one for awhile and felt a little underwhelmed. Later on I found this article TTAG did comparing a whole bunch of drop in style triggers, complete with Dvorak TriggerScan graphs, showing the CMC actually performed less well than other even less expensive models.

It's a couple years old by now, but here's a link for anyone interested.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/04/jeremy-s/ar-15-drop-in-trigger-roundup/

In contrast to the graphs depicted in that article, here's a graph of the LaRue which depicts the break I'm chasing.

5251

For comparison here is the Geissele SSA.

5252

And addition charts from Geissele.

5253

[gatordev]

I've continued to be impressed with the MBT. The G-triggers are great, no doubt, but for me, I find I'm getting as good if not better "feel" out of the MBTs for significantly less money.

I know that doesn't have anything to do with your trigger trouble, but it was interesting to see those trigger graphs and think about how I perceive the MBT's performance.

[Aragorn]

I'm with you on all counts. I like trigger data in this format as there's not really a better way to describe "feel" across the Internet. "Minimal creep" and "glass rid like break" are highly subjective and can mean different things to different people.

Anyways, I got my JP today! A day early! How often does THAT happen? Initial impressions with my MBT's and SD-E for side by side comparison..

Less creep and crisper break than the Geissele, but not quite as clean as the MBT. It's in between the two but more reminiscent of the SD-E. Reset however blows them both away, it's just... insanely short. This excites me as I've short stroked both of those as well as an SD3G.

[gatordev]

Another interesting observation you're making. I've noticed that I short-stroke a SSA "easier" than I do with a MBT, as long as I've got a few rounds through the MBT beforehand (and I don't mean immediately beforehand, just at some point in the past). I think the "few rounds with a MBT" has more to do with the fact that I may have used a single-stage "recently" (which is becoming less frequent). When I go in cold on a MBT, I don't really find it to be an issue much anymore. The SSA will still happen from time to time.

[Former11B]

I would have dropped a CMC in that lower and never thought twice. Fantastic single stage triggers and flat blades.

I want to try one of their new 2.5lb single stages.

I guess I’ve never compared trigger pulls via chart/graph. I try them, buy what I like and shoot the heck out of them

[SINNER]

I want to try one of their new 2.5lb single stages.

I guess I’ve never compared trigger pulls via chart/graph. I try them, buy what I like and shoot the heck out of them

Triggers and loudspeakers are 2 things to never purchase by published specs.

And honestly you guys lost me with the MBT. What a gritty feeling piece of garbage. The only good thing about that trigger was LaRue’s BS wait times that let me dump it for more than I paid.

[gatordev]

No one is advocating buying a trigger off of a trigger graph. Just that what I (and it appears Aragon) "feel" what the trigger is doing coincides with what the graph is depicting.

At the end of the day, we all like what we like.