Forward assist - Y or N? [Archive]

PJD642

5 July 2018, 10:24

This might be heresy, but I think I've got enough assembled lowers so I'm just building uppers as the whim hits me now. The one I'm currently contemplating is going to be a basic, no frills, semi-lightweight - flat top receiver, slim profile 14.5" barrel with a pinned/welded flash hider under a 13" free float rail with a fixed front sight, rail for a light, QD mount point for a sling, quality BCG, lightweight RDS, etc. I ordered most everything and then just surfed the web for a bit afterwards. Turns out what I'm building strongly resembles a Thunder Ranch Standard rifle (http://thunderranchinc.com/firearms/). I see that Clint eschews a forward assist on the rifles. I've been using AR-type rifles for ~20 years for recreation & work. I've always used good quality ammo and have never shot Wolf or similar stuff, and have never needed to use the forward assist on any of my rifles. I'm tempted to get an Aero Precision slick side upper (https://www.righttobear.com/Aero-Precision-Assembled-AR-15-Upper-Slick-Side-p/apar610401a.htm) and use that for the build. Seems to me if I get a round not chambering I'm gonna do a malfunction drill rather than try to shove the round in. If it still doesn't feed after that, I've got bigger issues.

To get to the point, has anyone here ever had a real world need for the FA?

Aragorn

5 July 2018, 11:28

Only once, and it wasn't for a malfunction. It was night, I heard something move in the house, and at that point in my life it was only me and the wife. No kids yet. She was laying beside me so obviously it wasn't her bumping around the place. I grabbed what was at that time my only AR (grabbed it instead of the pistol because it had the weapon light). It had a loaded mag, I lightly and slowly used the charging handle in an attempt to quietly chamber a round. Due to a lack of inertia it didn't want to seat.... so I used the forward assist.

In the end it just turned out to be the tree dropping crab apples on the roof.

In normal operation I've never needed a FA and don't view them as necessary. Especially since I've moved away from AR's as a primary HD weapon. That said, my most recent build does have one, but mostly just because I wanted it to be "full feature". I also split the difference in weight by getting one of Rainier's lightweight titanium versions of Forward Controls LDFA.

SINNER

5 July 2018, 11:30

I use them on hunting rifles because you can ride the charging handle to quietly chamber a round then fully seat the bolt with the F/A. Bench or plinking rifle I rarely if ever use the F/A But I still believe they are a good idea on any rifle.

MoxyDave

5 July 2018, 11:39

I don't think it's necessary, but I don't mind having it. Lore has it that the bolt carrier is dished at the ejection port in order to use your thumb to do the same thing. I think if you need any more force than that to close the bolt you should probably try extracting the round instead. The FA was added at a time when soldiers were told they didn't need to clean their fancy new M16s and ammunition was using inappropriate, dirty propellants. At least that's my understanding.

Go for it. You're not likely to ever need it in real life, and I think it might just make things worse if you used it with a (relatively) clean gun and good ammo.

Uffdaphil

5 July 2018, 12:07

I vote yes. On at least my non-standard PDW buffer system the BCG stops short more easily than with mil-spec. For a defense gun I see it as cheap insurance against the unlikely malf or need for quiet mode.

fledge

5 July 2018, 12:39

I think Sinner’s point is the only time I’ve wanted one. Even then, I load mine before the hunt if I’m not climbing trees.

On Aragorn’s point, my HD rifle is always loaded.

I prefer no FA. But I have some rifles with them and they aren’t an issue.

SINNER

5 July 2018, 13:07

UWone77

5 July 2018, 13:16

99% of my Uppers have F/A's. I don't think you really need a F/A, but I don't actively seek out non-FA uppers either.

I wouldn't over think this one.

Former11B

5 July 2018, 13:36

I shoot suppressed 99.9% of the time. They’re mandatory for me, as the amount I shoot tends to dirty up the rifles even with adjustable gas

voodoo_man

5 July 2018, 13:46

Absolutely.

You cannot press check your rifle without a forward assist, how else do you get it 100% back into battery?

Every rifle, always functional. Not even a consideration.

Stone

5 July 2018, 14:27

Yes. I wouldn't build a rifle without one. There will come a day when it doesn't go into full battery.

FortTom

5 July 2018, 16:27

Absolutely.

You cannot press check your rifle without a forward assist, how else do you get it 100% back into battery?

Every rifle, always functional. Not even a consideration.

Yes. I wouldn't build a rifle without one. There will come a day when it doesn't go into full battery.

The only time you'll miss it will be that "oh shit moment", "I need it", and don't have it. Kind of like going over a bluff in your car and wishing you'd had worn your seat belt. Both statements above = wisdom.

FT[:D]

alamo5000

5 July 2018, 18:39

None of my uppers have FA. All of my uppers are also basically recreational guns.

After owning and shooting AR platforms for a few years now I honestly think the FA is a '99% of the time' it will be useless, but on that 1% it will be like 'holy crap I am glad that was there'.

If I was building a TRUE HD or weapon for someone that will use it in life threatening situations (like cops or whatnot) I would not have one without it. That little bit of extra insurance is always a good thing.

Most people will never use it but it's good to have in the above mentioned scenario(s). For the rest of us we can take our time to clear the gun as needed.

voodoo_man

6 July 2018, 03:32

The only time you'll miss it will be that "oh shit moment", "I need it", and don't have it. Kind of like going over a bluff in your car and wishing you'd had worn your seat belt. Both statements above = wisdom.

FT[:D]

Just follow the logical process tree down.

You have an AR without an FA and don't press check, you need to shoot bad guy, AR isn't in battery, probability of dying, high.

You have an AR without an FA, you need to press check. So you rack the round to make sure you have one in the pipe, making noise and giving away your position. Also it may still not be in battery. Probability of dying, still high.

You press check your AR which has an FA and tap the FA to make sure it's in battery, probability of dying, lower than those things above.

Now if you're a gamer and want go full gamer mode and not even remotely consider real world applications, situations or training then yeah knock yourself out.

fledge

6 July 2018, 04:47

Former11B

6 July 2018, 05:25

^^ because they would get in the way of those fancy ribbed for her pleasure details on their uppers ;)

voodoo_man

6 July 2018, 06:48

The FA and non-FA debate has been well rehearsed. I prefer the reasoning of Clint Smith and Aaron Cowen for non-FA. Call PWS and ask them why their revered rifles lack FA.

The FA is known to create its own problems, so it’s not just “insurance” but a feature to understand and use with its pros and cons. You can presscheck without an FA or touching the bolt. My FA rifles are treated like non-FA but when on the workbench or climbing a tree.

Lol.

Go ahead an run an AR without an FA.

It's your call.

The last thirty years of AR application in the real world have taught us a lot of things, having an FA is one of those things.

This is one of those situations where people have experience on a square range and think it'll transfer over to real world application.

SINNER

6 July 2018, 08:54

I’d like to know what issues a F/A has caused?

UWone77

6 July 2018, 09:05

I’d like to know what issues a F/A has caused?

Causes you to spend $10 for one when putting together that upper. [:D]

I honestly don't think about this, because most uppers include a F/A. You have to actively seek out one that doesn't have it.

voodoo_man

6 July 2018, 09:24

Causes you to spend $10 for one when putting together that upper. [:D]

I honestly don't think about this, because most uppers include a F/A. You have to actively seek out one that doesn't have it.

Just like you have to actively seek out an issue with an FA.

Aragorn

6 July 2018, 10:07

I’d like to know what issues a F/A has caused?

Actually I'd be interested in hearing about this. Not trying to call anyone out, I've just never heard of one causing an issue.

fledge

6 July 2018, 11:56

The problem with the FA is user error. And as I recall, the FA came about because of inadequate diagnosis of issues and manual of arms. Normalization of a feature does not automatically determine best practice.

When the rifle is inoperable, you should be clearing it, not forcing a number of things into it. In the heat of the moment, do you have the time to diagnose your malfunction? Is there an empty case jamming extraction? Sand and dirt inhibiting chambering? How do you know what the problem is? Do you want your eyes on the threat or to determine if it’s safe to use your FA? You can take yourself out of a fight pushing crap into your chamber or complicating a simple malfunction. Clearing the chamber will always be the best and fastest way to remedy any problem without diagnosing what it is. Always train to clear the chamber with the same action. Pull things out. Don’t push things in. This is true of rifle and pistol. Let the weapon operate as designed.

If you need an FA because you have no lube, you’ve got other problems on your hands.

If you need FA to press check before a confrontation, you need to learn to sort your stuff out before the fight, not during. Plus, you can press check without needing an FA.

That’s the layman’s explanation of the non-FA view. Take it or leave it. I think it complicates training and overthinks a potential problem and adds new ones. As I said above, FA is for safety when climbing trees during the hunt or tinkering at the bench. Otherwise it’s a vestigial organ giving a false sense of security and even encouraging improper function.

Aragorn

6 July 2018, 12:18

Oh ok, you're talking about operator error. I misinterpreted and thought there was an implication that the part itself somehow was at fault.

fledge

6 July 2018, 12:34

Oh ok, you're talking about operator error. I misinterpreted and thought there was an implication that the part itself somehow was at fault.

Not that I’m aware of. But hey, it is one more thing in the upper that *could* cause a problem. Plus, Lefties or the injured right handed operator could rip off a nail pulling an ambi CH over that lovely FA button... :).

gatordev

6 July 2018, 13:30

Plus, Lefties or the injured right handed operator could rip off a nail pulling an ambi CH over that lovely FA button... :).

By that logic, we shouldn't be installing ambi charging handles then.

I think the flaw in this (very tired) argument is that it assumes the issue is in the chamber. It's also very possible that the slow down/lack of battery can be due to crud in the receiver, in which case pushing the FA isn't causing any issue as it relates to a chamber "jam."

Personally, I can't imagine not having a FA. But I've also used a FA on more than one occasion after a rifle has been exposed to dirt and/or rain while also being suppressed.

Aragorn

6 July 2018, 14:03

Lefties or the injured right handed operator could rip off a nail pulling an ambi CH over that lovely FA button... :).

Forward Controls Low Drag Forward Assist.

http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/LDFA-Low-Drag-Forward-Assist_p_16.html

All my AR's with FA have this.

PJD642

6 July 2018, 16:34

Funny you mentioning this - that's what I'd decided to do as a "compromise" on the issue.

fledge

6 July 2018, 18:57

Forward Controls Low Drag Forward Assist.

http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/LDFA-Low-Drag-Forward-Assist_p_16.html

All my AR's with FA have this.

Yeah, I’ve got a couple of those. :)

And everyone will defend their choices. I shared some non-FA reasons, per your request.

Aragorn

6 July 2018, 18:59

Yeah, I’ve got a couple of those. :)

And everyone will defend their choices. I shared some non-FA reasons, per your request.

That wasn't to argue. More pointing in a direction for the Internet non-WEVO regular's who will undoubtedly search this topic and end up in this thread.

BoilerUp

6 July 2018, 19:02

Somebody should make a FA that works as a bottle opener, too.

Former11B

7 July 2018, 09:29

I have HEARD, not seen, that the FA nib that pushes the BCG can break off and fall into the lower/FCG causing issues. Not big enough risk for me to eliminate them from my rifle.

porterdavid98

10 July 2018, 13:13

I agree that for me the FA is just part of the package. Also like auto insurance or life insurance you hope you never need it, but if you do having it will be real comforting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

porterdavid98

10 July 2018, 13:15

I asked my club members and not one of the 50 members knew of any real issues.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Joelski

10 July 2018, 13:34

I figure the military probably has that right. I'll just copy off of them.

FortTom

10 July 2018, 14:17

I have HEARD, not seen, that the FA nib that pushes the BCG can break off and fall into the lower/FCG causing issues. Not big enough risk for me to eliminate them from my rifle.

I too, have heard of this, always anecdotal and hearsay. Of all of those who speak of this mystery, none of those persons have ever actually witnessed it. I suppose it could happen, and it very well might have happened to someone or two. Never heard of it in the military either. I think if it posed a serious problem you wouldn't see one (F/A) in any branch of the service, law enforcement or any of the ABC agencies. I think your statement that it's "not a big enough risk for me to eliminate them from my rifle" is spot on. I do have one light weight project that I completed recently that is sans the F/A because 2A's ultra light upper was slick sided.

FT[:D]

PJD642

11 July 2018, 09:35

Since this is going to be my new do almost everything rifle, I chose to go with a URF and LDFA (http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/URF-Upper-Receiver-Forward-Controls-Design_p_98.html) from Forward Controls. Roger was fantastic as usual and even replied to an email I sent at 2215 EST asking about a MIl/LE discount code.

I always chuckle when I get a package from him and see the return address....
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schambers

12 July 2018, 03:35

I have HEARD, not seen, that the FA nib that pushes the BCG can break off and fall into the lower/FCG causing issues. Not big enough risk for me to eliminate them from my rifle.

I have seen *one* instance of a broken forward assisst nub. It was discovered in the lower reciever, lodged under the full auto timing/control mechanism (don't know what that part is called). The weapon in question had been recently turned in for an upgrade from an A1 to and A2 and the piece was found when it was returned from upgrades and undergoing an inspection from the end user. We made the assumption that the FA was broken as a result of mishandling during the upgrade, as it would have caused a malfuction and been noticed when the gun was used on burst mode, prior to the upgrade.

PJD642

29 July 2018, 11:59

So I went ahead and did the build on an Aero upper with no FA. I'm gonna get one of Roger's SBCGs (http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/SBCG-Pre-production_p_118.html) as soon as they're released, but for right now it's using a Brownell's M-16 Nitride BCG. I'm really liking the way this one feels, and it'll probably become my go-to rifle for most everything. Comes in at 6 lb, 3.5 oz without the M600 Scout light or Trijicon MRO. Yes, the colors may be a little goofy since I used what I had laying around, but I'll be able to pick it out at a glance at the next class I attend....

Aero Precision upper without FA
Sabre Defense lower w/ Sabre original lower parts
LaRue MBT trigger with heavier 6 lb. hammer spring
Vltor A5 RET & A2 buffer
CMT UHPR 13.7" HDX handguard
Faxon 14.5" 5.56 1/8 GUNNER barrel
BCM low profile gas block & Gunfighter Mod 1 comp, pinned & welded
Magpul SL-K carbine stock, MOE-K2 grip & trigger guard
Troy fixed front sight
Radian Talon 45/90 ambi safety, Raptor-LT charging handle & Radian Takedown Pins
Forward Controls Design ABCR-v2 (http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/ABCR-v2_p_86.html) & EMR w/ heavy spring (http://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/EMR_p_20.html)

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