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John Hwang
27 September 2007, 22:17
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/images/banner/pws-sm.jpg
Primary Weapon Systems is coming out with a Piston Kit. The official release date is targeted for December of 2007. A full Review will be performed in the up coming weeks / months. For now, here are some teaser pics and a video.

FEATURES:
*Dual Diameter Piston For Better Alignment and Less Wear
*QD disassembly for cleaning
*Operating Rod attached to carrier to minimize carrier defection and receiver wear.
*3 setting adjustable gas system with gas shut off for “Bolt Gun” suppressed firing
*All machined and heat treated parts, nothing welded or cast
*No machined modification to carrier or upper receiver


MSRP: $399


http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_2.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_6.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_1.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_3.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_4.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_5.jpg

http://album.weaponevolution.com/PWS/slides/PWS_PS_7.jpg





More Pictures to Follow and Comments Welcome!

Mike91A
28 September 2007, 17:22
I look forward to the review. I take it carbine configuration will be first .Providing that this thing works, N4 upper with PWC piston kit,DNTC FSC. Hmmmmm.........? Did you hear anything of a beyo lug version ?

John Hwang
28 September 2007, 19:19
No reports about a Bayo version. I know other lengths will be available including mid length & rifle length in the future.

Todd
29 September 2007, 23:20
John is correct on both counts. The system will be available in carbine, mid and rifle length systems. We are very excited about the ability to use this system on the rifle length as well as the mid length systems.

As our plans stand at this point, there will be no bayonet version. That being said, if people who "need" bayonets want a bayonet version, it is certainly something we can look into. However, when I say "need" - I mean, if you can stab someone through the gut with a bayonet and not go to jail... you "need" a bayonet. [:)]

Hope this helps.

Todd

gotm4
30 September 2007, 11:26
Very interesting. Can't wait to get mine! [:)]

Robb

Mike91A
1 October 2007, 18:33
Don"t realy need a bayo lug. Just like to iritate the libs .

olds442tyguy
3 October 2007, 16:07
What do these systems weigh in at?

Being able to work with a DD Lite rail is a massive plus. [:D] I'm seeing lots of friendly features not utilized by other piston systems, and they have excellent pricing.

TigerStripe
4 October 2007, 11:59
Not that there's anything wrong with a DD Lite rail but what all rails and lengths can be used with your piston system. Also, what if the upper has a 14.5" barrel w/ perm-attached Phantom?


TIA,


TS

John Hwang
4 October 2007, 12:05
We have seen the prototype models so I can't give you a definitive answer yet. When we do the full review of the piston, we'll be better able to answer this question.

Todd
4 October 2007, 20:17
The system will add approximately 4 ounces of weight to your rifle. The gas block is the heaviest piece at nearly 5 ounces, but the gas block and tube that you take off will obvoiusly subtract from the overall weight.

The rails we know the system will work with are the DD Lite Rail (LOVE IT!), the new Omega Rail from DD, the VLTOR CASV rail (a modified version that VLTOR is making for us) and the LaRue rail. We will have all of those rails as options for purchase during the retro-fit of your rifle.

Below are some pictures that might shed light on the function of the system along with an excerpt from our site:


Function

When the rifle is fired, the developing gases expand inside of the gas block much like a traditional DI system. The expanding gases push against our short stroke piston which exerts pressure on the operating rod and thus gives momentum to the bolt carrier. Once the piston itself has traveled 3/4", it expels any unused gas from a small vent in the bottom of the piston tube. As the cycle of the action is already in progress, the piston moves to the back of its chamber awaiting the return of the operating rod to push it back into battery.

System Features

Available for Carbine, Mid and Rifle lengh systems
A dual diameter piston for better alignment and less wear
Carrier key and anti-sheer pin machined from S7 tool steel
A fully mothered operating rod to inhibit flexing or bending
QD disassembly for cleaning
The operating rod is attached to the carrier to minimize carrier deflection and receiver wear.
Adjustable gas system for firing unsuppressed and suppressed
All parts are CNC machined and heat treated; no welded or cast parts are used
Lifetime Guarantee

The installation of the system will be done within a 2 week period after the customer's upper is received.

http://primaryweapons.com/wevo/PS_01.jpg

http://primaryweapons.com/wevo/PS_02.jpg

http://primaryweapons.com/wevo/PS_03.jpg

http://primaryweapons.com/wevo/PS_04.jpg

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Todd

clasky
5 October 2007, 13:00
This looks very interesting. I just got my first piston upper (LWRC) and I think I'm hooked. I have been playing with the idea of retrofitting my other ARs...

Todd
5 October 2007, 16:25
That is exactly what promted us to start working on this project just over a year and a half ago. The pistons are cool and we have a couple LWRCs ourselves. However, we wanted a piston for the 5 ARs that we already owned... thus the PWS piston system was born. [:)]

Todd

Todd
6 October 2007, 22:59
Here is a video of us testing the system in muddy water.

A few things to know about this video -

It was taken last year at this time - we've been working on this system for about a year and a half.

We could not get a second mag out of it AFTER a second dunk because the chamber had filled with too much crap and the gun wouldn't go into battery.

That barrel was ruined. It now key-holes at 25 yards. [BD]

Yes - the cyclic rate is slower on the "dirty" round - the gun was full of crap - but it ran... that is kind of the point. It also did not blow water and crap into our faces.

Don't try this at home! [:D]


Enjoy -

Mud Test Video (http://rainiervids.com/piston/Mud_Test.wmv)

Todd

(the container is an ordnance container - we have two of them - we bought them at D&B Supply in Meridian last year - they don't have any more.) (everyone always asks...)

czgunner
7 October 2007, 00:14
Tag

TigerStripe
7 October 2007, 12:20
I have a POF that I love, but I want a system what will accomodate a regular size rail. I also want something from a company with no "history"* that makes me doubt the weapon/system or its reliabilty. The test video is nice. Have you tested various buffer weights with your system. I like to run a 9mm or H3 in mine.


TS



"history"* does not refer to POF

Todd
7 October 2007, 19:49
We have been swapping different buffers as well as different springs and tube lengths. We have swapped different uppers around on different lowers with different stocks and tube lengths without issue.

Todd

TigerStripe
7 October 2007, 21:42
We have been swapping different buffers as well as different springs and tube lengths. We have swapped different uppers around on different lowers with different stocks and tube lengths without issue.

Todd

Cool! A friend got me to try a heavier buffer in my carbines and I've stuck with them ever since.

Thanks,


TS

Todd
17 October 2007, 21:17
Bump because I want to be back on top! [:)]

Todd
19 October 2007, 10:52
We have to make a correction - we have just found out that the Daniel Defense M4 Rail does not have the clearance to work with our system. Sorry for the confusion.

Todd

jvg04
26 October 2007, 14:43
John H,
Sir,
Is that the DD 9.5 lite rail ?
Sweet.
jvg04

Stickman
26 October 2007, 23:18
John H,
Sir,
Is that the DD 9.5 lite rail ?
Sweet.
jvg04

I'm not John, but yes, that is the DD 9.5 Lite rail.

Quib
27 October 2007, 09:02
Very nice! I’ll definitely be keeping an eye on this in the future. Can’t wait for more reviews!

m1371
29 October 2007, 02:55
Todd -

Looking at the piston system as listed on your website, it says "* this system is only for the AR15 series rifle in .223/5.56; it is not meant for 6.8SPC or .308 rifles."

Any particular reason why this system wouldn't work on a "6.8SPC/6.5Grendel/7.62x39/insert caliber here etc etc" AR? Is it tuned specifically for .223/5.56mm only or what?

Any plans on eventually having this piston system applicable for calibers other than .223/5.56mm?

Matt

Todd
31 October 2007, 18:50
Hey Matt,

The system is indeed only for the .223/5.56 - but truly for the simple reason that we have no tested it on anything else. As time progresses, we will most likely look at a 6.8/6.5 version as well as a 7.62x39 version - which I assume will be one and the same.

For the immediate future, we will be concentrating on getting everything up and running for the first version, then we will look at others.

Hope this helps.

Todd

m1371
1 November 2007, 00:27
Good to go! Looking forward to when this is available.

Todd
1 November 2007, 10:29
John H,
Sir,
Is that the DD 9.5 lite rail ?
Sweet.
jvg04


in my humble opinion -

Options for Carbine Length System
1.) DD 9.5 Lite Rail
2.) See option 1

[:D]

NvrenufRR
7 November 2007, 20:11
Great product, Ill be anticipating the release and availability.
Not needing a bayo lug, but do you have any plans on releasing a standard FSB version for keeping things looking original?

jvg04
15 November 2007, 08:35
Thanks Todd.
Give me a Call or drop me an e-mail.
Thanks,
John G.

12131
23 November 2007, 11:58
Very interesting. Looking forward to it. December is just around the corner.:P

FOXREED
23 November 2007, 17:42
I am told by LMT that the LMT gas system will not fit under the rifle length MRP. Have you considered the LMT MRP as a candidate for your system. I would be willing to send a 16" 5.56mm barrel to you to try a conversion on. Would this even be possible? Thanks for the consideration.

Todd
23 November 2007, 20:02
We spoke with LMT while at the SAR show in Vegas and it does not look like the LMT rail will work with our system -which is unfortunate, as that is a beautiful system.

I'll talk to them again when we are at the SAR Show next week and we'll see if our latest version (final version) has any better chance of fitting under that rail.

Todd

Darkmeat
25 November 2007, 16:39
I must say that I want one. It'd be nice if it came without rails on it as an option as well(as I'm not big on rails or the things that go on them, but I see their use)

Todd
25 November 2007, 19:23
A Modified M4 hand guard is certainly an option. I don't think I'll have any pictures of one before we leave for the SAR show - but I will have them shortly after we get back.

The top handguard has to be opened on the end slightly to allow the piston tube to go through, but overall it looks like a standard M4 with our gas block.

Hope this helps.

Todd

Darkmeat
25 November 2007, 22:43
Thanks for explaining that.

And for the price that this is, it's a better deal than a regular upper for what one gets.

Once I start building my AR, I think I'll go with this.

Poppa Kap
7 December 2007, 07:48
It is now 7-DEC... Any production word?

PK

Todd
7 December 2007, 23:25
They are available for purchase on our website - they have been since the 1st. [:)]

We haven't made any big announcements, as we were a little behind on production and wanted to get the demos and such out to people such as John... you know how he gets when you make him wait. [:)]

Once you order one and send in your upper, we are looking at about a 3 week turn around once your upper is lands in the shop.

Todd

NickDrak
26 December 2007, 05:45
Todd,

If you were sent a billet upper receiver (either LaRue Stealth or Vltor) and a 14.5" barrel, would you be able to build a complete upper using just the listed supplied parts, and have the upper built up with the DD 9.5 FSP Lite rail & your carbine length piston system?

Would it be possible to have your shop permanently attach one of your FSC556's to the 14.5" barrel as well???

If this combo is possible, could you please email or PM me a price estimate on this???

Stay safe,
Nick
ndrak@comcast.net

Todd
27 December 2007, 20:02
We offer the piston system and the DD 9.5 rail as a combo on the website -

www.primaryweapons.com (http://www.primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=24)

We would also need the bolt and bolt carrier along with your upper receiver, but other than that, yes, we could put that system together for you.

When we FINALLY get John his setup so he can install these systems, you will be able to purchase new parts from him as well and have the uppers assembled with our piston system.

We can also attach the comp on the 14.5" barrel.

Hope this helps.

Todd

TCBA_Joe
4 February 2008, 17:10
What would be nice to see is a piston that is not proprietary. It seems like LWRC, Aeres, and the PWS are all proprietary systems that require their own handguards and/or bolts. The only system I've seen that will fit under any handguard and attach to any bolt is the osprey system, which it seems is only currently available to Mil/LEO. I've been looking at making a piston sidecharger with a troy low-profile gasblock and a Vltor upper.

This system looks cool, but how versitile is it?

Todd
8 February 2008, 20:34
Our system replaces your gas block, gas tube and carrier key. That is all - everything else on your gun stays the same.

It is not OUR hand guards that we use - they are from other manufacturers that happen to have enough room to clear our system.

Ours is far from a proprietary system....

Just my thoughts.

Todd

Todd
9 February 2008, 20:14
We have made a few changes based on customer and industry feedback. Below are a few images of the new system. The system show is a midlength system on a 14.5" barrel.

The gas block is now a set screw mount instead of a taper pin.
(While many may feel that this will not hold, we can assure that that the 1/4” set screws we are using that sink in as deep as taper pins (approx. 100 thousandths of an inch) hold the gas block on just as well and actually create a tighter seal resulting in better overall function.)

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_1.jpg

The gas tube is now one piece and is removable for easier cleaning of the system.

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_2.jpg

The gas adjustment knob now uses a cam lever instead of pushing down on it. This results in a beefier knob making it easier to get the tube out when the system is hot or dirty.

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_3.jpg

The gas tube, piston, lug pin and adjustment knob become one unit prior to installation.

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_4.jpg

The gas tube assembly is simply inserted into the end of the gas block allowing the lugs to move into the interior channels of the gas block.

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_5.jpg

The gas knob adjustment lever is then moved into the appropriate slot (suppressed or unsuppressed) and you are ready to go.

http://dealervids.com/pub/Piston_6.jpg

One thing that is not shown in these pictures, as our production tubes are not back yet. We are chroming both the inside of the gas tube as well as the exterior of the gas tube where it is sits in the gas block.
I will post pictures as soon as we get the new tubes back and have a chance to shoot some more pictures.

Todd

John Hwang
9 February 2008, 21:03
So those this mean, no modification to the BCG is necessary?

Todd
9 February 2008, 21:05
The only modification to the BCG is that we replace the carrier key - but we don't cut it or anything strange like that - never did. ;)

Todd

Paulo_Santos
10 February 2008, 09:01
Todd, it looks very nice. Please keep the Rifle Length system. I'm still undecided on getting one for my 20" 6.8SPC, especially if the Troy rails won't work.

TCBA_Joe
10 February 2008, 17:17
Nice, +1 on the key issue. Only thing I'm not sold on is the handguards. I still would like something that fits under different handguards.

Todd
10 February 2008, 18:14
"the key issue?"

The gas block will fit under the Predator Rail... [:D]

Or - as I prefer - it fits inside of the DD 9.5FSP and 12.0FSPM rails.

Todd

Todd
11 February 2008, 20:08
Here are some more pictures of the system as well as installation on rails other than Daniel Defense. (though I don't know why you would want that.) [:)]

First - the piston system parts - apart...

http://dealervids.com/pub/standalone_1.jpg

and then together.

http://dealervids.com/pub/standalone_2.jpg

The system with a LaRue Rail (this lets you see the bottom of the gas block)

http://dealervids.com/pub/larue_1.jpg

http://dealervids.com/pub/larue_2.jpg

and finally with the VIS.

http://dealervids.com/pub/vis_1.jpg

http://dealervids.com/pub/vis_2.jpg

http://dealervids.com/pub/vis_3.jpg

As you can see with any standard height (receiver height) rails, the gas block rails is flush in line with those rails giving you a continuous rail for co-witnessing optics, etc.

Hope this helps.

Todd

gotm4
20 February 2008, 04:42
Very cool pics and explanation Todd.
Good meeting you and picking our brain at SHOT too!

NightFighter
24 February 2008, 11:47
Will the PWS fit under the handguards of the Noveske rifles? :confused: I know I could have the PWS installed on the N4 Basic without any problems, but I am looking at the Noveske Recon and would love to have the PWS installed on that rifle. Thanks in advance.

Todd
24 February 2008, 12:39
The system will fit under the VLTOR VIS - so anything that uses the VIS will work - as long as the handguard does not cover where the gas block would go.

Let me know if that makes sense.

Todd

Charlie-2-6
27 February 2008, 06:55
OK, you got me more than sold. Coming from the land of the FAL and FNC I'm genetically drawn to "pistondriven" rifles. That and the fact that I've hauled one around on regular intervals for the past 15 years [:D]
That being said, how can us Eurotrash have their AR-15s retrofitted with your system.
Sending it over to you for a retrofit would theoretically be the easiest way to go. But it will be a PITA w.r.t. the paperwork, import-, export- and all other documents needed resulting in probably having to miss my carbine + 6 monhts at the best.
Any change of obtaining just the set with forend and having it installed by a competent gunsmith overhere? (fortunate for me, there's one almost on my doorstep)

Todd
27 February 2008, 07:22
We are currently working with an exporter as well as an importer in Germany. ITAR regulations are pretty sticky about sending parts over, so shipping it here for a retro-fit would not be very feasable.

What country are you in?

Todd

Charlie-2-6
28 February 2008, 00:29
Lil ole Belgium, home of such fine firearms as the FN HP, FAL, FNC, Minimi (M249), MAG (M240) etc etc to name just a few.
But most people know us for our fine chocolate and excellent beer [:D]
As a matter of fact do I live about 1 Hrs drive from the German border.
The good thing about (hopefully) importing your gassystem into Belgium is that it is in no way subject to any license overhere. Barrels, bolts & their carriers and lower receivers are the licensed items, all other AR parts are free to purchase / possess.
For ease of handling & cutting back on costs, I prefer ordering straight from the manufacturer.

Todd
28 February 2008, 06:23
Yes - Norway is the same - if not more firearms friendly. Unfortunately, the state department doesn't care how friendly the country is that we are shipping to - they are only concerned with export regulations. As I would prefer to keep my business up and running and myself out of jail - I'll stick with the proper import export channels. ;)

Todd

ARin
24 March 2008, 21:32
Todd, talk to me about running this system on a 10.5 inch barrel/carbine gas.

I have an LMT 10.5 upper that i will also be running suppressed. As a left handed shooter, running a piston with my suppressor is making more and more sense every day.

Todd
24 March 2008, 21:57
Don't take this as me trying to chase you away - but the LMT handguard won't work with our system. I wish it would - but it doesn't. [BD]

Other than that - the system works great with a suppressor - even for the left handed shooters. A couple of the local LE guys around here are leftys and they say there is a huge difference before and after.

Let me know if you have any specific questions that I can answer.

Todd

ARin
24 March 2008, 22:34
Don't take this as me trying to chase you away - but the LMT handguard won't work with our system. I wish it would - but it doesn't. [BD]

Other than that - the system works great with a suppressor - even for the left handed shooters. A couple of the local LE guys around here are leftys and they say there is a huge difference before and after.

Let me know if you have any specific questions that I can answer.

Todd

not an LMT tube.
standard lmt 10.5 upper with LT 7
Now stop trying to chase me away;)

but the question still stands. issues with 10.5's??

Todd
25 March 2008, 06:15
Perfect - the LT7 works great - and no - there are no issues with the 10.5" barrel.

Todd

ARin
25 March 2008, 20:15
Cool, email sent.

thanks.

ARin
2 April 2008, 13:01
OK TODD JEEZE!!!

you talked me into it:P

my new baby is on the way for a spa treatment.
be nice to her. her name is cindy, and she is a bad girl.

http://img1.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/1537/1537973fb7968d2c88b54924410906cc99c5875.jpg

eringobragh
9 April 2008, 12:44
Looking at the pics above with the LaRue rail...I'm assuming that this would work on a 16" Colt rifle using a 7" LaRue rail system...

Paulo_Santos
9 April 2008, 18:56
Todd, I was wondering if you could take a second to address the carrier Tilt issue. Is there such a thing as carrier tilt with Piston uppers? If so, does the PWS have any carrier tilt issues?

Also, my concern with a piston conversion is the accuracy issue. Is there any way you can take a regular DI upper and test it with a certain ammo at 100 yards with a decent scope and then convert it with your PWS Sysyem and test it again with the same ammo?

I know that the Piston systems are designed for combat type purposes, so minute of bad guy is good enough for most people, but I'd like to see the whole accuracy issue put to rest.

Todd
17 May 2008, 21:58
Looking at the pics above with the LaRue rail...I'm assuming that this would work on a 16" Colt rifle using a 7" LaRue rail system...


Correct - the 7" LaRue will work on the carbine length or the 9" will work on the mid length.

Todd

Todd
17 May 2008, 22:05
Todd, I was wondering if you could take a second to address the carrier Tilt issue. Is there such a thing as carrier tilt with Piston uppers? If so, does the PWS have any carrier tilt issues?

Also, my concern with a piston conversion is the accuracy issue. Is there any way you can take a regular DI upper and test it with a certain ammo at 100 yards with a decent scope and then convert it with your PWS Sysyem and test it again with the same ammo?

I know that the Piston systems are designed for combat type purposes, so minute of bad guy is good enough for most people, but I'd like to see the whole accuracy issue put to rest.


Hey Paulo,

I think any piston system will have "some" carrier tilt - though the setup of our system certainly compensates for it by not hitting directly over the carrier but rather forward on the system by the gas block. (does that make sense).

Thus far I haven't seen any issue regarding the carrier tilt that was any more than simply surface discoloration.

Because our system uses a mothered op rod and small piston, it is a very smooth shooting system. Because of this, we have not seen any negative effects on accuracy. I'm a bit late replying to this question, as I have 3 people that have in theory shot for a group prior to sending their system in and will shoot for a group when they get it back - but thus far none of them have reported their findings.

I do know that my personal 18" SPR (rifle length WOA barrel) still shoots 3/4" at 100 meters - which seems very good to me.

Todd