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alamo5000
17 March 2019, 23:59
What happens if your buffer is too heavy? Is there any detriment to this? What could happen?

H1 is 3.8oz
H2 is 4.6oz
H3 is 5.4oz

(approximately)

All other things considered if your buffer is too light I know what can happen, but if it's too heavy? What would my symptoms be?

I am running an H2 now with an XP spring. I see a buffer though that has a slightly heavier weight (4.9oz) and I am not sure if that little .3 oz would make a half a difference or not. I am guessing not so much.

But just in theory if I had too heavy of a buffer what would the gun act like?

Thanks!

fledge
18 March 2019, 00:23
Too heavy and it won’t fully cycle. A full cycle means it will lock back on an empty mag.

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 01:07
With my current set up I have an adjustable block that I can't recall which click it's on but it's no where near full gas and with a H2 and XP spring it locks back without a problem. I tuned it to lock back suppressed and unsuppressed with a variety of ammo. I personally don't think a .3 oz difference would make any difference considering I have tons of leeway on the front end of the gun to get more gas if needed.

To be honest I don't even know the exact buffer weight I have now. It's H2 but none of them are standard as far as I can tell.

I don't know if that .3 oz extra weight will make any difference at all when it comes to reliability considering that it runs like a top. That 4.9 oz is like half way between H2 and H3 weights so before I bought one though I figured I should ask.

BoilerUp
18 March 2019, 06:47
you might want to try running a standard buffer and spring and tuning w/ AGB. Changing buffer weights is part of how you tune a system w/o and AGB. No real point in having the extra precipitating mass if not needed.

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 08:59
you might want to try running a standard buffer and spring and tuning w/ AGB. Changing buffer weights is part of how you tune a system w/o and AGB. No real point in having the extra precipitating mass if not needed.

When I build my 10.5 I was getting waaay too much carrier speed regardless of what I did with my GB. I think it was called 'bolt over base' which would mangle my brass and cause all kinds of feeding issues. Jerry R let me try a few things to test so I didn't have to throw lots of $$$ at a maybe and the H2 was my magic mojo. I tried it with an extra power spring AND the H2 and it was nice.

I've ran that setup with all kinds of 5.56 and 300BLK without ANY problem so I figured I would try to copy it. The only potential difference is the buffer that I am looking at is probably slightly heavier than a standard H2. I haven't bought a buffer (or spring) yet but that's why I am asking the question. LOL

Former11B
18 March 2019, 09:55
That’s what I’ve got with my .224 Valkyrie. I have it set on the first click that’ll cycle and lock the bolt but the carrier speed is still too fast and it was slinging brass like crazy, tearing it up and throwing it really far. Dropping to an H from a carbine buffer was the ticket to smoothing it out


When I build my 10.5 I was getting waaay too much carrier speed regardless of what I did with my GB. I think it was called 'bolt over base' which would mangle my brass and cause all kinds of feeding issues. Jerry R let me try a few things to test so I didn't have to throw lots of $$$ at a maybe and the H2 was my magic mojo. I tried it with an extra power spring AND the H2 and it was nice.

I've ran that setup with all kinds of 5.56 and 300BLK without ANY problem so I figured I would try to copy it. The only potential difference is the buffer that I am looking at is probably slightly heavier than a standard H2. I haven't bought a buffer (or spring) yet but that's why I am asking the question. LOL

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 11:05
That’s what I’ve got with my .224 Valkyrie. I have it set on the first click that’ll cycle and lock the bolt but the carrier speed is still too fast and it was slinging brass like crazy, tearing it up and throwing it really far. Dropping to an H from a carbine buffer was the ticket to smoothing it out

Exactly!

The real question here is at what point do you (not 'you' but we) over do it? I am trying to do a three bears thing here...not too hot, not too cold... but just right...at least that's the goal... I know what happens when carrier speed is too fast but if it's too slow on the far end the bolt won't lock back...but let's say I am just this side of the no bolt hold open side, is there a wide band of 'if it works it works' or is there signs of over doing it?

I don't know the exact weight of my current buffer but it is an H2, but I am wondering basically how much wiggle room I have to play with here. At the end of the day it's going to come down to experimentation so it might be a $40 or $50 experiment. That's not anything to worry about cost wise but if someone knows the answer why not ask eh?

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 12:04
^^^ On that note I see buffers of weights all over the place.... so I am shopping but also learning at the same time. I am looking for in context of what is 'ideal' and what symptoms to look for...

rxer311
18 March 2019, 13:14
I like a little wiggle room so I can run all types of ammo suppressed and unsuppressed so I tend to keep my bolts running faster with lighter buffers...that way I know I can run Tula in a pinch, but also run full power ammo suppressed. That is a wide operating margin so my bolt runs faster and harder than most. If you want "ideal" an adjustable gas block is the key. I don't like adjustable gas blocks though...one more part to fail. Problem with running bolts faster and harder is that parts wear quicker. But..."ideal" would be the bolt running just fast enough to lock back on an empty round. The solution to this beyond having gas ports custom drilled is to have all buffer weights in your spare parts box, and get heavier and heavier until it doesn't lock back on the last round. When you find the weight that doesn't lock back, go 1 lighter.

UWone77
18 March 2019, 14:48
Unless your gun is really over gassed or you're shooting suppressed, I think this obsession the last few years with buffers is gotten out of control.

Joelski
18 March 2019, 14:52
It seems paradoxical to me to want to take better care of your rifle by spending more on the recoil system, but then feed it questionable ammunition. Sure, it's not corrosive, but we all know China loads everything with lead, or carfentanil. Why run crap through your gun's digestive system? What's in that faceful of eastern bloc or commie Red "gas"? Your rifle can't wear a gaiter!

Joelski
18 March 2019, 14:53
Unless your gun is really over gassed or you're shooting suppressed, I think this obsession the last few years with buffers is gotten out of control.

You said it. Of course it's gonna drive Alamo's OCD batshit, so grab some more Orville Redenbacker's. [:D]

mustangfreek
18 March 2019, 15:53
Unless your gun is really over gassed or you're shooting suppressed, I think this obsession the last few years with buffers is gotten out of control.

I 100% agree with that..every forum there’s always a thread on this subject of some sort..

But there’s also been so many advancements it makes ya wonder what does work, maybe better?

I’ve been eyeballing those armaspec srs setups.. but that’s another thread..


You said it. Of course it's gonna drive Alamo's OCD batshit, so grab some more Orville Redenbacker's. [:D]


[BD][:D]
Lmao.....I agree.....sorry Alamo......

Aragorn
18 March 2019, 18:25
Too much overthinking here. Adjust your gas or buffer weight to lock back, unsupported, unsuppressed, with the weakest ammo you intend to run. Then it'll run anything you feed it suppressed or not.

gatordev
18 March 2019, 19:02
Exactly!

The real question here is at what point do you (not 'you' but we) over do it? I am trying to do a three bears thing here...not too hot, not too cold... but just right...at least that's the goal... I know what happens when carrier speed is too fast but if it's too slow on the far end the bolt won't lock back...but let's say I am just this side of the no bolt hold open side, is there a wide band of 'if it works it works' or is there signs of over doing it?

I don't know the exact weight of my current buffer but it is an H2, but I am wondering basically how much wiggle room I have to play with here. At the end of the day it's going to come down to experimentation so it might be a $40 or $50 experiment. That's not anything to worry about cost wise but if someone knows the answer why not ask eh?


^^^ On that note I see buffers of weights all over the place.... so I am shopping but also learning at the same time. I am looking for in context of what is 'ideal' and what symptoms to look for...

First of all, when all else fails, go back to the TDP. I believe it has the actual buffer weights that the system was designed for.

Next step, do some research on which barrel manufacturer has properly gassed gas ports for the specific configuration you're looking for. Yes, some of it will be anecdotal, but there's lots of good info you can find via the Googs.

And to Aragon's point...if you have an already functioning system, don't screw with it. You're good. Don't over-think it.

BoilerUp
18 March 2019, 20:25
And to Aragon's point...if you have an already functioning system, don't screw with it. You're good. Don't over-think it.

For some of us, screwing with it is half the fun. And this is Weapon Evolution, after all. [:D]

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 23:52
Unless your gun is really over gassed or you're shooting suppressed, I think this obsession the last few years with buffers is gotten out of control.

99% suppressed all the time on this one with the option for unsuppressed, but very unlikely.



You said it. Of course it's gonna drive Alamo's OCD batshit, so grab some more Orville Redenbacker's. [:D]

It's almost like you know me! [BD]



But there’s also been so many advancements it makes ya wonder what does work, maybe better?


Lmao.....I agree.....sorry Alamo......

It's ok. We all gotta laugh even if it's at ourselves. [:D] You did touch on an important part...new whizbang parts that are supposed to be special... do they really work? This does make me wonder sometimes. Just put in a search for H2 buffer and you get a dozen varieties all in different weights.



And to Aragon's point...if you have an already functioning system, don't screw with it. You're good. Don't over-think it.

Understood.

My point is this... my current SBR won't be touched. It's staying like it is and I won't have to swap uppers anymore. Having an upper with no lower makes me feel kind of naked. It has to grow into a full rifle hence this whole build and putting together a new lower. It would be pretty easy to find a standard weight H2 buffer (or so I thought) and get the same spring I have and call it good.

That said as I hunted around for buffers in the H2 range they have a shit ton that are not at all 'standard' weight or whatever.

My question originally is kind of simple---but the answers might not be I guess. Basically put "if my buffer is too heavy what's gonna happen?" [read: if it's going to be a pain in the ass I don't want to mess with all that bullshit]

I know the lower will need a heavier buffer. This is a known quantity. But I go to order a plain vanilla heavier H2 buffer and a search on single site turns up no plain vanilla, just a 4oz, 4.3oz, 4.5oz, and 4.9oz and said marketing material leads to this thread.

If I under do it I know what will happen. Bolt over base, carrier speed too fast, constant stoppages, mangled brass, etc. If I over do it though and put something too heavy what are those symptoms? No LRBHO, maybe short stroking? Anything? Can basically an extra half oz cause things to be too slow? Is that even a thing?

alamo5000
18 March 2019, 23:59
They got everything EXCEPT plain vanilla. It's sort of like a titanium castle nut or some gimmick like that, except when it comes to buffers they actually do stuff inside the gun and weight does matter when it comes to function. I just don't know how much leeway there is here. I will probably just pull the one out of my current SBR and put it on a scale and find out which one of those listed above is closest to it. It's not like I will be fawning over a cool looking buffer once the rifle is together.

Joelski
19 March 2019, 04:45
You sound like you're building a lower for the exact same caliber you already have, which I'm sure is not the case. You also have to consider that .300 and 9 mm have a softer recoil than 5.56. If you're building this for your B.O. upper, I think you will be surprised at how well it runs without any fiddling with the recoil system.

If you need to fart around with it that badly, take the upper apart, clean, lube and re-torque everything.

Or you can buy an adjustable buffer and replace the discs with tungsten shot for the most precise weight for custom handloads*.

*I can't name anybody that does this, probably because that minute a level of tuning returns no advantage.

Former11B
19 March 2019, 05:37
Having a buffer that’s too heavy can increase recoil impulse and cause issues with the next round being picked up.

There’s no way to know for sure without testing the various weights, like if you skipped from Carbine to H3, if the H or H2 would do the trick.

It may be a fun little experiment just to see ejection pattern shift and how the rifle responds but it will be more for satisfying a curiosity than anything else if the rifle current functions fine. But who knows, it could end up being more than that in terms of your rifle running more smoothly

gatordev
19 March 2019, 06:41
For some of us, screwing with it is half the fun. And this is Weapon Evolution, after all. [:D]

Fair enough. #merica


My question originally is kind of simple---but the answers might not be I guess. Basically put "if my buffer is too heavy what's gonna happen?" [read: if it's going to be a pain in the ass I don't want to mess with all that bullshit]

You keep asking the same question and keep getting the same answer. If you put a buffer in that's "too" heavy, then the rifle won't function correctly. Period. Also, as Former11B pointed out, you can get an increase in recoil impulse. If this happens, start going back down.


I know the lower will need a heavier buffer. This is a known quantity. But I go to order a plain vanilla heavier H2 buffer and a search on single site turns up no plain vanilla, just a 4oz, 4.3oz, 4.5oz, and 4.9oz and said marketing material leads to this thread.

I mentioned going to the TDP to check the weights, but I meant to say go to the maintenance manual (easily downloaded here (https://info.publicintelligence.net/USMC-M16-MaintenanceManual.pdf)) and have a look. However, now that I'm home from work and took a look, I couldn't find the weights stated in there (after a quick glance). But I'd go find what Colt says their buffers weigh, since they held the TDP. Bottom line: carbine buffers can be various weights. Hx buffers should be "standard." Here's some info to start with: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/changing-buffer-weight-on-ar15s/83752

alamo5000
19 March 2019, 20:26
I pulled the buffer out of my SBR and weighed it and inspected it. It appears to be a BCM H2 which weighs in at 4.6 oz per their specs and 4.585 oz on my scale.

I am 95% sure it's a BCM.

One plain vanilla buffer coming up. [BD]

alamo5000
19 March 2019, 20:45
I emailed tech support at Griffin and they said their 4.9oz buffer was extensively tested but only with a standard spring. So with a 4.6 oz buffer and an XP spring that should take me about to the same place as their 'special' buffer.

Should be GTG because that's what I got already and it's proven.

Like I was saying above though, four choices of H2 buffers all gave me different buffer weights all on one major gun retailer's site. Pain in the ass. Both of us [BD]

mustangfreek
20 March 2019, 00:02
Since your playing around, have you looked at the Armaspec SRS setup?

Hear a lot of good things about them at less then half a JP setup
https://armaspec.com/product/stealth-recoil-spring/

alamo5000
20 March 2019, 07:44
Since your playing around, have you looked at the Armaspec SRS setup?

Hear a lot of good things about them at less then half a JP setup
https://armaspec.com/product/stealth-recoil-spring/

I've never heard of them. I finally figured out what kind of buffer I have already (it was a pay it forward buffer to help me trouble shoot a problem).

In the future I might experiment, or if someone else has tried it and it's remarkably better I would try them out for sure.

mustangfreek
20 March 2019, 15:58
Heard nothing but good things from people that use them.

I’ve been eyeballing them forever.