Are they kidding me?

[FortTom]

I've been trying to verify that a 1911 Para "Black ops" with the skull and wings on right hand side of slide is rare or not. I have been able to determine it was only produced for one year, then Remington bought PARA and killed the Black Ops line. (they should have killed the shitty R1, and kept the Black Ops IMHO)

After hours and hours of searching the 'net, I found a "Para"? website that had an active person with a chat tab. I asked this question to the person, sure I had found my answer, and was told this: "When Para was sold to Remington, all records including numbers made, were turned over to the ATF, and cannot and will not be revealed, by law".

This sounds like a load of bull to me, but, heck, I don't know, stranger things occur, so I guess it could be true.

Any thoughts, facts, or comments on this? I mean, what could be so "secret" about the number of civilian weapons, sold of a certain model or configurations of a model.

Thanks,
FT[:D]

[Uffdaphil]

Sounds like bull to me. Unless there are pending lawsuits and revealing info may help the plaintiffs.

[FortTom]

Sounds like bull to me. Unless there are pending lawsuits and revealing info may help the plaintiffs.

I never found any information indicating that there were lawsuits or patent infringements or anything of that sort. Just can't believe as much effort as I have put into this, no one has a clue about this. Screw it, I give up, it's a great pistol and I'm going to shoot it anyway, rare or not.

FT[:D]

[UWone77]

I mean it's a Para... I'd just use it as a drop gun, or door stop. [:D]

[mustangfreek]

Lol

That does seem shady, unless uffda is on to something.

[FortTom]

Lol

That does seem shady, unless uffda is on to something. I just can't for the life of me, believe a freaking roll mark could make any difference whatsoever. Except, in a "rarity" scenario. Then, what's the big deal about the number made, of an identical guns, without the roll mark? Going to try the library one more time to see if they have any old "Gun Bibles" or other books that might have that information in it.

FT

[mustangfreek]

So is this the double stack model?

Pics?

[FortTom]

So is this the double stack model?

Pics? Single 8 + 1 stack.

FT

[Axlnut]

Single 8 + 1 stack.

FT

Para Black Ops were made in such numbers that for the longest time (hell maybe even now) E-Sarco could barely GIVE the slides away. Like, $60 for complete, laser marked Black Ops slide. The R1 "Enhanced" or whatever is just a Black Ops at this point.

I too miss Para, not sure where the hate comes from, but I've seen plenty of GI Experts and especially P14 perform like monsters for many years.

[voodoo_man]

ATF "Going out of business" Section 14.1

14.1.1 “Records” for purposes of this section. Reference to the term “records” in this chapter refers
to the acquisition and disposition records required by GCA and NFA regulations, Forms 4473, Forms
3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11
(Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault
weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the
licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, this term also refers to the
required printout of the all A & D records, as required by the variance approval.215 As required by the
regulations, these records must be surrendered to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center (OBRC) or
transferred to any successor of the firearms business within 30 days of the discontinuance of such
business.216 [Handwritten changes add cite “27 C.F.R. § 478.129” but may just be the above referenced
forms]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-14/download

[Former11B]

If the ATF has the records, a FOIA request should do the trick

[FortTom]

Para Black Ops were made in such numbers that for the longest time (hell maybe even now) E-Sarco could barely GIVE the slides away. Like, $60 for complete, laser marked Black Ops slide. The R1 "Enhanced" or whatever is just a Black Ops at this point.

I too miss Para, not sure where the hate comes from, but I've seen plenty of GI Experts and especially P14 perform like monsters for many years.
I have to disagree that the R1 is just a Black Ops. The Para is a Black Ionized Stainless Steel pistol to begin with. There are many, many quality differences between the R1 "enhanced" and the Black Ops, and if you have the time and the desire to, you can compare them side by side and find out how many differences there is in quality. The folks at Remington wanted to put out a cheap "clone" with a more reasonable price point than the Para Black Ops, to throw out for the masses. Not that my opinion means jack squat to the folks at Remington, but they should have S-$t canned the R1 and continued to produce the Black Ops or offered both to different buyers. I have a Wilson Combat Delta Elite, and I will put the Black Ops side by side, as far as quality is concerned. The WC is a bit "slicker" and has a lot of hand work, but it costs twice as much also. But quality? Naah, not so different IMHO.

FT[:D]

[FortTom]

ATF "Going out of business" Section 14.1

14.1.1 “Records” for purposes of this section. Reference to the term “records” in this chapter refers
to the acquisition and disposition records required by GCA and NFA regulations, Forms 4473, Forms
3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11
(Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault
weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the
licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, this term also refers to the
required printout of the all A & D records, as required by the variance approval.215 As required by the
regulations, these records must be surrendered to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center (OBRC) or
transferred to any successor of the firearms business within 30 days of the discontinuance of such
business.216 [Handwritten changes add cite “27 C.F.R. § 478.129” but may just be the above referenced
forms]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-14/download

Wow, my cousin is a lawyer, I'm going to have to have him interpret that for me. Seriously, thanks. I guess that answers my question, "they" weren't kidding me.

Thanks again for the info. I think I'm going to end my search now. and just shoot the damn thing.[:D]
FT[:D]
P.S. The things are still going (assuming condition, of course) for about what they were new, so I suppose there is still some love for them, out there in the wilderness, warranted or not.