Fixed Iron Sights on SBR

[rxer311]

Debating on switching things up and just running fixed iron sights on my SBR which is my primary HD carbine. My eyesight just continues to deteriorate with my astigmatism and red dots just continue to bloom more and more. My current setup is a Trijicon MRO with Magpul back up sights. Honestly the reticle on the MRO is just a hot mess which really blooms into a "constellation" of stars which is bigger than the intended 2 MOA dot.

I tried the Chinesium stuff in the past (PA Cyclops and Vortex Spitfire 1x), and while they are functional, my brain won't let me keep an optic on my primary HD carbine which is made in China. I understand that failure of this type of optic in a HD scenario is unlikely, but...brain block.

Do I just get over myself and use the Spitfire 1x and rid myself of Micro Dots for good (just sold my Browe which was also Chinesium LOL)?

Or do I give a nice set of good ole irons a shot? I was thinking Troy, DD, or Scalarworks.

[Aragorn]

Look at holographic sights like the EOtechs or the Vortex UH-1.

Those are laser vs. LED. They stay nice and crisp, even with an astigmatism.

I’ve got a slight astigmatism in my right eye. It tends to make itself known behind red dots, especially cheaper ones. I’ve noticed Aimpoints tend to do better, but with a holo sight it’s just a clear, crisp, perfectly round dot.

[rxer311]

Eotechs are better, but not perfect. Eotech is still a solid choice that I wasn't even thinking about.

[mustangfreek]

I’d argue that. Every Eotech I’ve looked thru and had, was slot worse then the few mro’s I’ve had

Stupid astigmatisms..lol

My green dot mro is much better then 2 reds, arm east for me.

Back to the subject, I’m not opposed to irons. Really depends on what the rifle/upper is for.

[BoilerUp]

I’d argue that. Every Eotech I’ve looked thru and had, was slot worse then the few mro’s I’ve had

Stupid astigmatisms..lol

My green dot mro is much better then 2 reds, arm east for me.

Back to the subject, I’m not opposed to irons. Really depends on what the rifle/upper is for.

I don't think that was your astigmatism as much as it's a training issue. The HWS are pixelated and look like crap if you focus on the reticle. The focal plane for the reticle is the same as the target which means the trick is to look through the reticle with both eyes open while focusing on the target. It takes some getting used to, especially if you are coming over from traditional RDS.

[mustangfreek]

Training issue..lol...I’ve had half dozen of various eotechs and they all Sucked. Have/had aimpints,mros and various other cheap red dots. Their better in that regard “to me”


Ok, but really the trick is, put on your reticle, I mean glasses first, as if you read, as in letter for letter and don’t look ahead or veer off course..You will need both eyes open, your hand on your head and the other rubbing your Tummy in a circle, cause it’s not about training info or trying to sound like ...lol..

It’s about fixed iron sights..

[pop]

Whatcha got..lol..had to edit as I thought I came off rude...[BD]...sorry got a killer toothache

[VIPER 237]

Why not try a TA-44?

[Stone]

Debating on switching things up and just running fixed iron sights on my SBR which is my primary HD carbine. My eyesight just continues to deteriorate with my astigmatism and red dots just continue to bloom more and more. My current setup is a Trijicon MRO with Magpul back up sights. Honestly the reticle on the MRO is just a hot mess which really blooms into a "constellation" of stars which is bigger than the intended 2 MOA dot.

I tried the Chinesium stuff in the past (PA Cyclops and Vortex Spitfire 1x), and while they are functional, my brain won't let me keep an optic on my primary HD carbine which is made in China. I understand that failure of this type of optic in a HD scenario is unlikely, but...brain block.

Do I just get over myself and use the Spitfire 1x and rid myself of Micro Dots for good (just sold my Browe which was also Chinesium LOL)?

Or do I give a nice set of good ole irons a shot? I was thinking Troy, DD, or Scalarworks.

I'm working on my next SBR and if I go with the 8" barrel then its only going to have iron sights. Either fixed or flip up. Im tired of hanging all kinds of crap on my rifles and this one is going to be super simple. If I go with the 12.5" upper I will move the T2 and light from my 10.5" to the 12.5" and run the flip ups on the 10.5" as is. Yeah, go with the fixed sights... Shooting with just irons really forces you to focus. I have been eyeballing the Scalarworks sights for a while. May give them a try.

[rxer311]

I'm working on my next SBR and if I go with the 8" barrel then its only going to have iron sights. Either fixed or flip up. Im tired of hanging all kinds of crap on my rifles and this one is going to be super simple. If I go with the 12.5" upper I will move the T2 and light from my 10.5" to the 12.5" and run the flip ups on the 10.5" as is. Yeah, go with the fixed sights... Shooting with just irons really forces you to focus. I have been eyeballing the Scalarworks sights for a while. May give them a try.

I was playing with some of my rifles with just the flip up sights today with my light in the basement just to try them out and with the large peep at close distances, I feel that it would be adequate at HD ranges. Also don't have to worry about dead batteries. I actually picked up that rifle today and the MRO was dead. I have the green dot version which doesn't have as long of a battery life. At setting 5 it only lasted 8 months.

[MoxyDave]

I'm working on my next SBR and if I go with the 8" barrel then its only going to have iron sights. Either fixed or flip up. Im tired of hanging all kinds of crap on my rifles and this one is going to be super simple. If I go with the 12.5" upper I will move the T2 and light from my 10.5" to the 12.5" and run the flip ups on the 10.5" as is. Yeah, go with the fixed sights... Shooting with just irons really forces you to focus. I have been eyeballing the Scalarworks sights for a while. May give them a try.

I recently bought a set of their PEAK fixed AR sights. The machining and quality is outstanding. I used them to build up a super-light, simple build just like you mentioned.

[Stone]

@rxer: I didn't put to much thought into it, but a light for HD would definitely be a big plus in a low light situation. It seems the less amount of stuff you have on a rifle seems to bump up reliability...

@Dave: Thanks for the feedback on the PEAK sights. Ive never owned fixed sights. On a rifle with just irons would you think fixed is better than flip ups?

[gatordev]

Some thoughts from someone who regularly gets woken up at the bottom of the circadian rhythm cycle and has to utilize vision and brain power immediately...

Your plan to use the large aperture will be a must. Even with my relatively new magic eyes, it's pretty normal for it to take 10-15 seconds before I can get my eyes to focus enough to read text on a computer screen (which has an increased font size, for exactly this reason). I wouldn't count on being able to find that front sight right away. Add in your astigmatism, and you get more fun, depending on how it affects your vision.

As Stone is saying, having the light can help off-set this, as at least it can give you a light area that your front sight can silhouette against, even if it is fuzzy. But I'd also argue that having the light can help you point shoot, once you confirm whatever off-set there may be with the cone of light. If you can get your eye into the rear aperture and then see the cone of light, you're probably reaching 50% hit rate at some closer distance.

Lastly, depending on where you were in your sleep cycle, things are going to be foggy. The adrenaline will help with that, but of course brings its own liability. Plan on processing things slower than normal. Again, large aperture and light helps some of those variables.

Bottom line, I would want to have a light at a minimum. Personally, I'd like a RDS, but I totally understand your logic to not having one.

[UWone77]

Your plan to use the large aperture will be a must. Even with my relatively new magic eyes, it's pretty normal for it to take 10-15 seconds before I can get my eyes to focus enough to read text on a computer screen (which has an increased font size, for exactly this reason). I wouldn't count on being able to find that front sight right away. Add in your astigmatism, and you get more fun, depending on how it affects your vision.



I bet Jerry can attest to this more...[:D] but I 100% agree with that 10-15 seconds focus thing. I never noticed it when I was younger, but the older I get, It takes me awhile to focus my eyes. The vision deterioration after 40 is a real thing. This is the main reason I red dot everything.

[rxer311]

Some thoughts from someone who regularly gets woken up at the bottom of the circadian rhythm cycle and has to utilize vision and brain power immediately...

Your plan to use the large aperture will be a must. Even with my relatively new magic eyes, it's pretty normal for it to take 10-15 seconds before I can get my eyes to focus enough to read text on a computer screen (which has an increased font size, for exactly this reason). I wouldn't count on being able to find that front sight right away. Add in your astigmatism, and you get more fun, depending on how it affects your vision.

As Stone is saying, having the light can help off-set this, as at least it can give you a light area that your front sight can silhouette against, even if it is fuzzy. But I'd also argue that having the light can help you point shoot, once you confirm whatever off-set there may be with the cone of light. If you can get your eye into the rear aperture and then see the cone of light, you're probably reaching 50% hit rate at some closer distance.

Lastly, depending on where you were in your sleep cycle, things are going to be foggy. The adrenaline will help with that, but of course brings its own liability. Plan on processing things slower than normal. Again, large aperture and light helps some of those variables.

Bottom line, I would want to have a light at a minimum. Personally, I'd like a RDS, but I totally understand your logic to not having one.

I already have a surefire light mounted so I am good there. My astigmatism mostly affects incoming light so the dots are just a mess. I know that the dot will still be functional at HD ranges, but it bugs the shit out of me in any other situation.

[Aragorn]

Maybe a visible laser would be a good addition in this case.

[rxer311]

Maybe a visible laser would be a good addition in this case.

Can you make a recommendation?

[Aragorn]

Can you make a recommendation?

Unfortunately no. I have no real experience with them, but it seems like in this particular scenario it would be a sight augment worth consideration.

[UWone77]

You could just get a DBAL I2, or replace your light with a Surefire X400 and get the laser/light combo.

[BoilerUp]

This thread got me thinking that I really never hear anybody talking about putting night sights on their carbines. I wasn't even sure if I'd ever seen any, but figured surely there must be some out there.

Anyone here ever used something like these?

Trij AR Night Sights: https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/cp25

Blitzkriend luminescent FSP https://www.blitzkriegcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ARCFS08LGTD

[rxer311]

Just ordered a set of Scalarworks Peak sights. Might add a visible laser in the future.

[Stone]

Were they in stock?

[rxer311]

Were they in stock?

Yes

https://aimsurplus.com/scalarworks-peak-fixed-iron-sights-set/

[Stone]

Definitely going to need some pics of them on the rifle... and some feedback after busting a few mags down range.

[rxer311]

Definitely going to need some pics of them on the rifle... and some feedback after busting a few mags down range.

Will do.

Maybe I will do a member submitted review as somebody who is not an operator operating operationally.

[Stone]

Hehehe.. Just throw in a few words like, tactical, ultra, premium... Nobody will know the difference.[:D]

[rxer311]

Are these iron sights worth $240?

As with all things firearms related, there sights are a cost/value proposition. These are the highest cost rail mounted fixed iron sights on the market. For some they will provide high value, while others will feel that it is a waste of money. Both categories of users are correct.

Let me get into my initial thoughts on these sights. I can't say this is a full review because I have only used them for 1 short range session for setting up zero on my HD rifle.

Packaging:

First things first, they come in quality packaging from the manufacturer. They are not in a dive box like most top tier optics out there but are neatly packed into a rigid logo cardboard box. Each sight is individually vacuum sealed. When you open them up they are not caked in oil or grease. They are just ready to mount and go.

Initial Thoughts:

The machining on these is perfect. The finish is flawless. This is what you would and should expect on a set of iron sights that costs more than a lot of popular red dots on the markets. There are no rough edges and everything on these sights is thought out to prevent snagging on gear. Everything is radiused so that operation of your weapon system works smoothly. They are engineered to flow with the lines of an AR15. You can tell that especially the rear sight was very thoroughly thought through.

Did I mention these are light? They are extremely light. If you don't want to feel extra weight on your rifle, these will do it. Lightest iron sights on the market. They feel like a piece of paper.

Mounting:

Each sight must be slid into place on the rail and then the bold must be threaded through a pic rail slot. Each side of the sight is rigid so to remove the sight the bolt must be completely removed and then the sight needs to be slid off the rail. While this makes them more of a pain to mount, it creates a more robust mounting interface.

Adjustment:

The most positive feature of these sights in my opinion is the ease of adjustment. There are no tools required to adjust either the front or rear sights. The front sight adjusts by a dial on the front sight. Every adjustment clicks into place. You can hear and feel each click. Once the sight is adjusted where you need it, I do not fear it accidentally moving. When it clicks into place it takes enough effort to move the dial that it will not move on its own.

The rear sight is also adjustable without tools. There is a dial on the side which is indented with raised ridges to get traction with a finger or thumb. I could easily just push my thumb into the dial and adjust the sight. The clicks are tactile but not audible like on the front sight. Just like on the front, I also do not fear the sight losing zero. It just clicks firmly in place.

Keep in mind that these sights were designed to be used on a 15" railed rifle so if you are using a shorter rail such as on an SBR, the adjustments will be slightly off in the windage. I didn't feel like doing the math so I just shot until I fine tuned the zero until I got it where I wanted it.

Range Use:

I only spend a little bit of time behind these, and most of it was just fine tuning my zero. I zeroed with the small aperture and got a good 25 yard zero with a 5 shot group. Getting to zero was stress free and only took 2 gross adjustments and then a couple fine adjustments to get it right where I wanted it. View through the small aperture was easy to find the sight picture.

After I fine tuned my zero I flipped to the large aperture and shot a few groups. Sight picture is easy to find going from low ready to aiming down the sights.

Since this is a HD rifle and I am zeroed at 25 yards I then checked my holds at 15 yards and 7 yards and everything lined up just as I expected it to.

Final Thoughts:

I will start with my original question.

So are these worth $240? If you are looking for the best of the best with great looks, great machining, and intuitive functioning, then you will find value in these sights. If you just need something tough and functional then the offerings from DD, MI, Troy, etc will do what you need them to do for $100+ less.

So do you want to be a baller or not?

These are tactical, ultra, premium (per Stone).

https://i.imgur.com/AbLtCpc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9cJ5zHT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kbb0uys.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/wETP6Rx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/groPRI1.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/04TG63A.jpg

[Stone]

"These are tactical, ultra, premium (per Stone)." [:D]

Thanks, how is the sight over bore? Are they easy to pick up quickly? If you close your eyes and bring the rifle up to the ready position, then open your eyes are you pretty much on target? Or do you have to adjust your cheek weld?

[rxer311]

I did not bring it up with my eyes closed but going from low ready to ready to fire, it was quick and intuitive with the large aperture.

[tact]

I believe the last time I actually used iron sights on any rifle was 1992. To answer your question about them being worthwhile.....no, but hey ....you do you. As long as you are happy with it.

[UWone77]

I believe the last time I actually used iron sights on any rifle was 1992. To answer your question about them being worthwhile.....no, but hey ....you do you. As long as you are happy with it.

I'm pretty onboard with this line of thinking. Scalarworks makes top notch stuff, but $240 is more than 1/2 to an Aimpoint PRO, the same price as a Vortex SparcAR or really less. I'll take a red dot over irons in any situation.

[Stone]

Yeah but his original issue was "My eyesight just continues to deteriorate with my astigmatism and red dots just continue to bloom more and more."
Which is why I believe he opted to go with irons... Besides you'll never have a battery fail, optic breaking, and they are super light weight... Its definitely got some upsides to it...

I built my son his first AR when he was 17, now he just turned 21 and is a recon marine. To this day he still hasn't put an optic on it, he just loves shooting it with the irons. He recently bought a new AR and put a T2 on that one though.[BD]

[rxer311]

Yeah but his original issue was "My eyesight just continues to deteriorate with my astigmatism and red dots just continue to bloom more and more."
Which is why I believe he opted to go with irons... Besides you'll never have a battery fail, optic breaking, and they are super light weight... Its definitely got some upsides to it...

I built my son his first AR when he was 17, now he just turned 21 and is a recon marine. To this day he still hasn't put an optic on it, he just loves shooting it with the irons. He recently bought a new AR and put a T2 on that one though.[BD]

I have also tried using a LPVO set at 1x and it is just too heavy for the intended purpose.

Red dots just bloom more and more as my astigmatism progresses. I have what they call an irregular astigmatism which also really can not be corrected via traditional means with lenses unless I go with a hard contact lens. That 2 MOA dot looks like an 8 MOA constellation of stars with tails going in every which direction.

I am thinking about trying out one of those Crimson Trace Linq systems for this rifle to see how that works.

[BoilerUp]

I have also tried using a LPVO set at 1x and it is just too heavy for the intended purpose.

Red dots just bloom more and more as my astigmatism progresses. I have what they call an irregular astigmatism which also really can not be corrected via traditional means with lenses unless I go with a hard contact lens. That 2 MOA dot looks like an 8 MOA constellation of stars with tails going in every which direction.

I am thinking about trying out one of those Crimson Trace Linq systems for this rifle to see how that works.

I think prior posters have already stated this, but if I had an astigmatism I'd be looking at Holographic and/or Prismatic sights.

[rxer311]

Trijicon does not make a true 1x and those that do are made in China.

[tact]

Trijicon does not make a true 1x and those that do are made in China.

So are you saying that no red dots that are true 1x are made in the US? LPVOs? I’m just trying to understand your post since there is very little context to it.

[rxer311]

I am talking about 1x prismatic sights.