Your opinion on the use of shot timers

[alamo5000]

I have been going back and forth on the use of a shot timer... (I don't have one but I am considering buying one)

On one hand I don't think it hardly has any practical application for concealed carry with one big exception. I am not a competition shooter. In the conceal carry arena it doesn't help at all about situational awareness, cover vs concealment, or any decision making stuff that will be far more important in the big picture. On the other hand where it does help is with constantly revealing the truth about mechanics and accuracy, which I personally think applies to concealed carry a lot.

On balance are you using a shot timer in your regular routine or do you bypass that as something geared more for a competitive shooter?

Opinions either way... please share...

[mustangfreek]

Beep











[BD]

[gatordev]

On the other hand where it does help is with constantly revealing the truth about mechanics and accuracy, which I personally think applies to concealed carry a lot.

On balance are you using a shot timer in your regular routine or do you bypass that as something geared more for a competitive shooter?

Opinions either way... please share...

If you're trying to measure a baseline and/or establish or attain a standard, you have to have a way to measure the results. For the act of presenting and firing a weapon, one way to do that is assessing accuracy. Another way is assessing time on target. Note what I just said isn't specific to firing a hand gun, it's true overall for employing a weapon system, and standards exist for such things in the military.

So, all that said, for the exact reason you mentioned, "revealing the truth about mechanics," a timer is a great way to establish such a baseline and work towards a standard, whatever that might be for you.

I'm a huge fan of a timer, not because I shoot competitively, but because I can measure improvement or decline, and when I do shoot competitively, it adds some stress to the act of shooting.

[Former11B]

^ what he said. Two metrics of “improvement” would be speed and accuracy.

Your accuracy may improve at the cost of speed or your speed improves but you’re not hitting anything

Use the shot timer so both can be measured.

I don’t shoot exclusive pistol-only competition (about 70/30 towards rifle) but adding time to the equation adds pressure to you as a shooter. You have X amount of time...can you, at the beep, execute all the actions necessary to stop the threat in a finite amount of time?

I had an instructor and sort of mentor tell me a long time ago that you have the rest of your life to enter that gun fight. How long or short that may be is up to you. The situation wasn’t the same but the point was clear: get that gun up

[alamo5000]

Thanks for the responses. That kind of validated how I was sort of leaning I guess. The same metrics could be applied to rifles as well as pistols too I would imagine. Both a clear 'win'...

On that note I have been looking at the Pocket Pro Timer II. Any experience with those or are better options available? I only mention that one because it's one of the few that Midway carries not because I have done any research on it.

[gatordev]

Thanks for the responses. That kind of validated how I was sort of leaning I guess. The same metrics could be applied to rifles as well as pistols too I would imagine. Both a clear 'win'...

My apologies if my post to sounded handgun-centric. That wasn't my intent, it just seemed like that's where your focus was, Alamo. The timer is agnostic, and I agree, it's a great tool, regardless of weapon system and/or discipline.


On that note I have been looking at the Pocket Pro Timer II. Any experience with those or are better options available? I only mention that one because it's one of the few that Midway carries not because I have done any research on it.

When I first started shopping, I ended up with the that timer. I liked it for all of the various settings you could adjust, especially on the random start time. The Pack (?) timer is a nice timer, but at least fpr the one I've borrowed, it doesn't allow for random start times. The smaller one (basically the third main option) is okay, but I like being able to clip my timer to a pocket or kit, so that ruled it out.

The PPT does eat 9v batteries, though. The battery will last a long time, but the back light screen will be shut off early on in the battery cycle. Also, my timer's LCD screen has a decent sized blemish in it now, which makes reading some of the characters hard, but it's not like I've take great care with it and it's lasted at least 6-7 years. I need to get a new one, as I can't even read the settings and it reset itself the other day on me. But overall, I'm still a fan.

[Jerry R]

At the spring and fall shoots, we use a shot timer for the dueling tree. I don't have a local range that allows "from the leather", so I don't get to use it much locally. If you have a range that allows it, it does help with practice in that it will provide input into your time on target for the first shot. It sets a level that helps your practice. If you don't know how you are doing, it is tough to gauge improvement. I'm a big fan of input. The more I know, the more I can learn. We use a couple of PACT shot timers. Not expensive, and easy to use.

[alamo5000]

Thank you all for the responses so far. No need to apologise for anything Gator.

I don't use public ranges ever because I can shoot at home. It's been at least 3 or 4 years since I went to a range.

The idea of getting feedback has been coming up a lot lately. I will probably be on the lookout for a good price but I know zero about timers so learning about any features that are good/bad on various models would be helpful.

[gatordev]

Something I forgot to add earlier... The PPT allows you to adjust for suppressed weapons. I think both the PACT (thanks Jerry!) and the "other" (I can't remember the name) timers do that, as well, but something to research before buying. Again, why I went with the PPT, at the time, but it was some time ago.

[alamo5000]

Something I forgot to add earlier... The PPT allows you to adjust for suppressed weapons. I think both the PACT (thanks Jerry!) and the "other" (I can't remember the name) timers do that, as well, but something to research before buying. Again, why I went with the PPT, at the time, but it was some time ago.

That's definitely an example of exactly what type of things I would like to know before buying.

If anyone can think of any other stuff at all please jump in. And definitely thank you Gator and others for your help. It definitely helps to learn from other people's experience.

[Default.mp3]

AMG Lab Shot Timer is probably the best thing out there, from what I've been told. Beyond that, the rest of them all fucking blow equally; the CED, Pact, and Pocket Pros are all pretty similar in terms of features and all are old as fuck. I have had my Pocket Pro II for a long time now, and works fine still, I guess.

You can do a lot of shit dry with just a phone app. Draws, reloads, etc.

If it's raining out, just toss the timer into a Ziploc bag, maybe bump up the sensitivity a little, and drive on.

[BoilerUp]

I got a shot timer a year or two ago and I find it both useful for practice to improve but also just fun. For some, the timer also adds some pressure to perform which can also impact your performance, which I find interesting.

I got the Competition Electronics Pocket Pro 2 as it seems to be pretty well accepted and utilized. It's does have adjustments for sensitivity, but it won't pick up my shots when I shoot my MPX suppressed with subsonic ammo (which is pretty much all I shoot with the MPX) . I'm not sure if that is a "bad" on the timer or a just an "awesome!" on the gun.

Get a shot timer. Go shoot with it. Get better. Have fun.

[alamo5000]

AMG Lab Shot Timer is probably the best thing out there, from what I've been told. Beyond that, the rest of them all fucking blow equally; the CED, Pact, and Pocket Pros are all pretty similar in terms of features and all are old as fuck. I have had my Pocket Pro II for a long time now, and works fine still, I guess.

You can do a lot of shit dry with just a phone app. Draws, reloads, etc.

If it's raining out, just toss the timer into a Ziploc bag, maybe bump up the sensitivity a little, and drive on.

Those look great. Just need to figure out where to get one.

[alamo5000]

I got a shot timer a year or two ago and I find it both useful for practice to improve but also just fun. For some, the timer also adds some pressure to perform which can also impact your performance, which I find interesting.

I got the Competition Electronics Pocket Pro 2 as it seems to be pretty well accepted and utilized. It's does have adjustments for sensitivity, but it won't pick up my shots when I shoot my MPX suppressed with subsonic ammo (which is pretty much all I shoot with the MPX) . I'm not sure if that is a "bad" on the timer or a just an "awesome!" on the gun.

Get a shot timer. Go shoot with it. Get better. Have fun.

Yes. More than just giving measurements of performance it does seem like it would add a new element to shooting. A fun one at that.

[Default.mp3]

I got the Competition Electronics Pocket Pro 2 as it seems to be pretty well accepted and utilized. It's does have adjustments for sensitivity, but it won't pick up my shots when I shoot my MPX suppressed with subsonic ammo (which is pretty much all I shoot with the MPX) . I'm not sure if that is a "bad" on the timer or a just an "awesome!" on the gun.Most likely has to do with the frequency of the sound, rather than the sheer volume. It'll probably pick it up if you have it pretty close to the ejection port. Or modify the drill so that you just use par times, I guess.

[BoilerUp]

Most likely has to do with the frequency of the sound, rather than the sheer volume. It'll probably pick it up if you have it pretty close to the ejection port. Or modify the drill so that you just use par times, I guess.

Yeah, maybe. I had it hanging from my belt. One of these days I'll see if I can get someone to hold it up directly behind me while I shoot.

[gatordev]

If I'm running a shooter at a competition that's shooting a quiet, suppressed gun, I'll just push the timer up to the ejection port, and it works fine.

[alamo5000]

I got an email from AMG Lab today and they said their timers are built to order which typically meant a long wait time. However per their email starting in January they will offer them ready to ship and start keeping inventory on hand for immediate shipment.

I might wait a little bit and get one of those. We will see you.

[BoilerUp]

I got an email from AMG Lab today and they said their timers are built to order which typically meant a long wait time. However per their email starting in January they will offer them ready to ship and start keeping inventory on hand for immediate shipment.

I might wait a little bit and get one of those. We will see you.

So you're going to wait to order so you can avoid waiting for your order?

[alamo5000]

So you're going to wait to order so you can avoid waiting for your order?

Yup. LOL

I'm still looking into it to be honest. It's not a priority and I have holiday anxiety already. I already have too much stuff that should have been done yesterday so a few things have to wait.

Also I read some forums and they were waiting up to six months for a timer. I don't see any point in that.

I don't need to rush to get one anyway. I will get one but after the holidays cool off. Right now 3 day shipping takes about 12 days on average so I can wait a little bit to make sure that's the one I really want.

[alamo5000]

I checked on my CC statement and paid it all off so it looks like I am pretty much in the clear from Christmas already. With that in mind I went ahead and bought the AMG Labs one. They said it was about a 2-3 week wait so I am guessing sometime in early to mid January.

I am totally unfamiliar with shot timers but when I get it I will let you know what my impressions are. I plan to use it for both pistol and rifle practice. I will have to come up with new (to me) drills that incorporate a timer.

If you know of anything along those lines please let me know.

[tact]

Most drills have a time standard to work towards.

[alamo5000]

Most drills have a time standard to work towards.

Formal drills are new territory for me. Pretty much I am asking to learn and/or be referred to reference material so in due time I can give it a try.

[BoilerUp]

Formal drills are new territory for me. Pretty much I am asking to learn and/or be referred to reference material so in due time I can give it a try.

Well, you're in luck. I actually spent some quality time on google and youtube a year or so ago right after I go my shiny new shot timer and tried to build a plan and or list of ideas. I put my notes in a Word document and here they are:

CARBINE PRACTICE
1) 12-Round Warm-up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpMq7ck-1aQ)
Ammo: 12 rounds loaded; Target- 3x5 card, 5-yards
• 2-rounds @ 100 Cadence. E.g., “one hundred” BANG, “one hundred” BANG
• 2-rounds @ 10 Cadence. E.g., “ten” BANG, “ten” BANG
• 2-rounds @ 1 Cadence, BANG BANG
• 2 rounds fast
Move to 15 yards
• 2 rounds @ 100 Cadence
• 2 rounds @ 10 Cadence
2) Baer Standard Drill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIJejiWnqn4&t=463s )
Ammo:10 rds load, 3 rds ready mag; Target: Baer Standard Target; 5 yards; Condition: 9 seconds
2 x 5 rounds in each of the big squares (left and right)
Bolt-lock reload
3 rounds in center smaller circle
Bolt lock reload
3) “Up Drills” / First Shot (sight alignment) Drill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJsnRRyfso)
Ammo:5-10 rounds loaded; Target 5x5 box (head shot on IPSC Silhouette); 5 yards; Condition: half sec
1 shot, starting from low ready
Repeat until you get ~5 consistent hits within condition
4) Repeat “Up Drill” with Hammered Pairs
5) Throttle Control Drill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJsnRRyfso )
Target: T-Rex 2-circle; Ammo – 8 rounds; condition TBD; range: start 7-10 yard
4 rounds at cadence in big, then 4 rounds at slower cadence in small (can mix up)
6) Failure Drill – Repeat above but put one controlled shot in the T-box after the hammered pair (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRTqQjvlPs4 )
7) Box Drill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRTqQjvlPs4)
2-target Failure Drill (above). 2 in chest, 2 in chest, T-box, T-box
8) Z-Drill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a61R5f7odE0 )
Ammo: 5 rounds; Target: 5 x 3x5cards; 10 yards; condition: <5sec
Start from low ready, 1 shot per card in a “Z” pattern
9) 2-2-4-2-2 Drill ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2oT3BeqVPs&t=277s )
7 yards, 3 IPSC targets;
10) Finish session with Repeat BAER Standard Drill, note time difference from first.

PISTOL
Consistency Drill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1iDjiLrp6g
https://guerrillaapproach.com/product/consistency-target-free/

[alamo5000]

Dude. You are the man. Thank you for that.

[BoilerUp]

Oh, and FWIW, Failure Drills are my favorite


https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs

[Default.mp3]

http://pistol-training.com/drills

[alamo5000]

http://pistol-training.com/drills

Thank you. I will take a look when I get a minute.

I am shooting for fun and I want to keep in fun so a lot of the time I mix up what I am shooting based solely on my mood. I think a timer will add a bit of a new element into it and make it a bit more competitive even if I am only competing against myself.

Over time I want to incorporate that into both pistol and rifle.

About the only pistol 'drill' that I've tried was stuff that I made up. I started at 7 yards and I would draw and shoot the target. Then I would run up and touch the target with my free hand and run back to 15 yards and repeat, and then do it again to 20 ish yards all back to back. It doesn't sound like much but that gets to be a lot of running. I also would do it starting at 20, then 15, then 7 to basically simulate closing space and/or making space between myself and my target.

I've been a lazy ass for a long time though so I haven't done it in a while. But that is the sole thing that I have ever tried and I am definitely not an expert.

[alamo5000]

About the only pistol 'drill' that I've tried was stuff that I made up. I started at 7 yards and I would draw and shoot the target. Then I would run up and touch the target with my free hand and run back to 15 yards and repeat, and then do it again to 20 ish yards all back to back. It doesn't sound like much but that gets to be a lot of running. I also would do it starting at 20, then 15, then 7 to basically simulate closing space and/or making space between myself and my target.


I figured it out and I would end up running as fast as I could for between 50 and 60 yards each go with a minimum of 3 shots on target (one at each stop). You can do two shots on target at each stop if you want (6 shots), or even three (for a total of 9 shots fired).

I know one thing. I found out that I am lazy and out of shape. Trying to shoot (accurately) when you are winded and/or feeling like you are going to puke is 'interesting'.

[tact]

Thank you. I will take a look when I get a minute.

I am shooting for fun and I want to keep in fun so a lot of the time I mix up what I am shooting based solely on my mood. I think a timer will add a bit of a new element into it and make it a bit more competitive even if I am only competing against myself.

Over time I want to incorporate that into both pistol and rifle.

About the only pistol 'drill' that I've tried was stuff that I made up. I started at 7 yards and I would draw and shoot the target. Then I would run up and touch the target with my free hand and run back to 15 yards and repeat, and then do it again to 20 ish yards all back to back. It doesn't sound like much but that gets to be a lot of running. I also would do it starting at 20, then 15, then 7 to basically simulate closing space and/or making space between myself and my target.

I've been a lazy ass for a long time though so I haven't done it in a while. But that is the sole thing that I have ever tried and I am definitely not an expert.

Defoor has a similar test.

[tact]

Here’s a couple more.

You don’t need the Dropbox app to view this one...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbuq3ckx8yfhbdg/PGF-drill-book-Sept-2015.pdf?dl=0

Operator Readiness Qual (separate from the ORT)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201220/ebc95b7126e5ebbb0d76f152068507c9.jpg

Additional standards
7684

[alamo5000]

Update:

I got my timer today. 72 days from order until delivery. This was after I was told '3 weeks' on the date of order (Dec. 16)

First thoughts are that the packaging was awesome. The product looks awesome as well. I haven't had a chance yet to play with it in detail but it looks like it's solid for sure.

I spent a bit of time tracking down the owner so that wasn't good. He is an active user on another forum that I joined (at first) for the sole reason to try and figure out what was going on with my order. Several emails went unanswered so I resorted to plan B.

I don't know how many employees there are but the owner seems like a cool guy. That said I think they lost my order so they were just cruising around thinking all was caught up when it really wasn't. Apparently the company has a reputation for being slow AF when it comes to orders. I don't think I am the only one at all. That said as soon as the owner found out via that other forum within about 2-3 days my unit shipped out and he included some extras in the box (mainly swag but it's still a gesture).

Main complaint is it seems like the employees just kind of screw off when the boss isn't around and communication is very much lacking. Like I said, I sent three emails and none got a response. It wasn't until I joined the other forum until I got a reply.

I was told it was on backorder so I knew it wasn't going to ship instantly going into it. 3 weeks vs 10 weeks is a big difference though. I didn't push it sooner because it was holiday season, which I figured factored in to everything, plus covid, plus all these record sales numbers in the gun industry etc etc.

I kind of got the impression that the owner was not happy about the situation with my order so he personally checked on it and made it right as quickly as he could. Like I said though it's more about the lack of any kind of response and bad or no communication than it was about the 10 week wait time. If they had told me 10 weeks up front I still would have bought one but it's just 'how' it all happened.

Anyway aside from the not good communication aspect product wise it looks like I have a solid piece of gear to work with.