Polymer 80 gets visited by ATF

[mustangfreek]

Just seen the news on the webz and an email earlier today.

Interesting...

[UWone77]

Yeah, they're specially targeting P80 and their distributors like Brownells, who sold kits with all the parts along with the 80% frame. Apparently, they're gathering customer lists from all the distributors as well. Gonna be potentially pretty ugly.

[mustangfreek]

Humm..braces last month were/are under heat and now p80’s

They sold them for years...wonder why it took so long if this stuff is true..

[MoxyDave]

They are clearly emboldened by the administration change.

Buckle up guys. It's going to get rough.

[Tyrannosaur]

Just wait for the Supreme Court to fix it. Oh... wait. Nevermind

[FortTom]

Hell, out of two dozen other idiotic things, LA's new AG is making assaulting a police officer a non crime. They (the socialists) know the only way to control us through gun control. Then they take over health care, employment, the food chain, every aspect of our lives. I just watched an older video of Kamala Harris say "hell yes, when I'm elected President" (a Freudian slip?) I'm coming to take them and jail you if you (being us) resist.
The ATF is just getting warmed up! Sorry for rant. I know it's pushing the political do not cross line for the forum, but the gun grabbers are so intertwined with weak spined politicians it's hard to not get your toes up to that DMZ because our future overlords are puppets of the George Soros' of the world. If I get spanked for this post, that's o.k.

FT

[Stone]

To understand something I try to look at things from all points of view. In reality it seems like P80 pushed the threshold on the 80% rule by adding in the parts that make it more like a 95-99.9% product as a whole. They could have just shipped the lower parts separately, but by trying to save extra costs on shipping they put it all together. I am not taking either side on this one, but seems to me P80 poked the dog with a stick by trying to save a few bucks.

[Stone]

Hell, out of two dozen other idiotic things, LA's new AG is making assaulting a police officer a non crime. They (the socialists) know the only way to control us through gun control. Then they take over health care, employment, the food chain, every aspect of our lives. I just watched an older video of Kamala Harris say "hell yes, when I'm elected President" (a Freudian slip?) I'm coming to take them and jail you if you (being us) resist.
The ATF is just getting warmed up! Sorry for rant. I know it's pushing the political do not cross line for the forum, but the gun grabbers are so intertwined with weak spined politicians it's hard to not get your toes up to that DMZ because our future overlords are puppets of the George Soros' of the world. If I get spanked for this post, that's o.k.

FT

Take their statements to its end game, who will they get to enforce their bogus laws? Logistically its just a pipe dream on their part, all they can spread is fear, that is their game. Its smoke and mirrors... Their own plan shoots themselves in the foot by alienating the police and turning the cops against themselves... Patriots need to change the way they look at their gun rights, the right to bear arms does not come from the constitution so all this save the second amendment rhetoric is hot air. If they take away the 2A it doesn't matter, it changes nothing, since our right to bear arms comes before the constitution, not because of it. This is exactly what the British did just before the original unpleasantness. You cannot legislate away an idea or a core beleif.

[Stone]

I know this gets a little off topic but at the root of the discussion it seems relevant since the end game is always in the minds of firearm owners...



2nd Amendment and the Kool-aid Drinkers by Paul Howe

This article by Special Operations Veteran Paul Howe was originally published on the Wilson Combat Blog on January 3rd, 2013. If you wonder why I don’t get worked up over DHS buying all kinds of cool guy toys, it’s this…reality. They don’t have the guns or the numbers to threaten America’s liberty and that’s because America’s citizens are armed. The real threat isn’t a full frontal assault on our Constitutional rights, it’s the death by a thousand cuts that we suffer as Congress whittles away at them little by little. By wary of “reasonable” laws that amount to baby steps toward the total erosion of the Bill of Rights. Stay engaged. Be a trained, responsible gun owner and let your elected representation know how you feel, not only on this issue, but other Constitutional issues as well.

2nd Amendment and the Kool-aid Drinkers
by
Paul Howe

I have quietly watched and evaluated the in pouring of e-mails reference the liberal’s intent to seize guns and crush the second amendment. I want to add a few of my own thoughts on this issue as I have worked in and around all the people who could be tasked to seize your guns.

WHO’S COMING TO GET THEM?

United Nations (UN)
We are the UN. Other countries mostly join the U.N. to secure money, funding and training and few have any offensive combat capability. Most serve as guards at static locations and have no will to fight. America is the enforcement arm of the U.N. We have the money, equipment, personnel and lift platforms to get the job done.

If the president ever let the U.N. in this country, it would be a foreign invasion and armed Americans would stand up and crush them in a day. Our government would break down and the president would be ousted for letting foreign militaries invade our country.

Federal Government Military
Having served over 20 years in our military, I know that most soldiers would refuse the order to take part in the confiscation of weapons. First, the president would have to give the order, which is an “Illegal Order” in violation of the constitution. I don’t believe that service members would go back into the communities that raised them and conduct raids on good Americans in violation of the constitution.

Remember, these forces would have to come from a military base that is surrounded and supported by American communities. Civilians would simply cease to support the bases and they would fold in a short time. Cut of the fuel, food, electricity on bases and this would stop the silliness. Also, many, many service members live in the communities and they would have to travel from their houses to base unless they were locked down. In that case, their families would still be in the community and people would not be too friendly to those supporting these actions.

Federal Government DHS or TSA
The Federal government is not large enough or talented enough to seize guns. If they were to do 5-8 raids a day seizing guns, they would be physically and mentally exhausted and need a break. Physically conducting raids is exhausting. After the first few raids, the word would get out and Americans would start to fight back. It would take one good ambush from a house or along a travel route to decimate a tactical force or make it combat ineffective.

Next, most Federal Agencies work out of a fixed location centrally located in a community. Also, their personnel live in those communities along with their families. Once the word got out that they were doing raids in violation to the constitution, they and their families would be at risk. If they were to start raiding houses, kicking in doors and breaking in windows looking for legally owned guns, their homes would be subject to the same treatment by Americans rising up to defend themselves. They would shortly find themselves without a place to live.

State Law Enforcement
The Governor would have to order State and Local Law Enforcement to either:
Seize guns
Ignore the Federal Orders

If they ignore the Federal Orders, things would be tense, but people would be civil. If they started to seize guns, they only have limited people and assets to do this. Much the same consequences would take place as with the Federal Government.

Local Law Enforcement
Local Police and Sheriff Departments are the backbone of who protects American Citizens. A Sheriff or Chief of Police would have to give the order for his people to begin to seize weapons. Their people would either comply or see it as an illegal order and refuse.

Remember, Chiefs and Sheriff’s also have to live and work in the same communities they serve. As I described with the Federal Government, local Tactical Teams could probably only do 8-10 hits in a day and then need a break. So they hit ten houses and seize their guns, the word would get out and now they are subject to living in the same community as those they are attacking. It would not go well. Also, after one or two determined Americans or combat vets fought back, the team would lose many to death or injury and they would have made a decision whether to continue to push the fight. Remember also, they have to sleep sometime. Their homes and families would be at risk. It is an ugly scenario at best.

Nation of Combat Veterans and Patriots
Having been at war for over 10 years, we have a nation of combat vets and contractors that have seen more action than many of our WWII vets. It has been said that only a small percentage of Americans stood up to the British War machine in the Revolutionary War. Americans are better armed and trained today than at any time in our nation’s history. Think about what would happen if just our nation’s veterans stood up. People have been buying more guns and ammunition in the past five years than any time in my life. The guns and ammunition are out there along with the talent to use them.

Kool-Aid Drinkers
Kool-Aid Drinkers is the term I use to describe the Jonestown voluntarily massacre where the Peoples Temple Agricultural Project, a dedicated community western Guyana by the Peoples Temple led by cult leader Jim Jones intentionally drank poison Kool-Aid. Over 900 people died.
In every law enforcement, government and military agency or branch, there are a small number of Kool-Aid drinkers who would blindly follow orders. They would either be purged internally by their co-workers or people they attacked would stop their gene pool.

Also, at the police tactical team level, all members “volunteer” for the job and they can have the individual integrity to terminate their team service at any time if their profession becomes corrupt or misguided. I know many a good officer that has done that in the past.

Finally, there would be a certain number of American Kool-Aid drinkers that would turn in their weapons if asked. I believe it would be a small percentage as there are always those that do not have the will to resist or fight and they are not needed should thing get tough.

History of “Gun-Free Zones”
Our nation’s history is filled with examples of “gun-free” zones failed.
The Aurora Colorado movie massacre and the recent Connecticut shooting are two that come to mind. Also, remember the Fort Hood massacre where an Islamic extremist Major Nidal Malik Hasan killed 13 soldiers because our military bases are gun free zones. Combat trained soldiers had to be rescued by a security guard. That is embarrassing.

Evil came to all of these places and everyone was disarmed and not ready to fight back because they were gun free zones.

Think what would happen at a national level if the American people were disarmed. Another evil would come along either from inside our country or outside of it and resulting in our downfall.

How about others in recent history:
-In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
-China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
-Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Solutions
Write your state representatives and let them know how you feel about this issue. I would like to think that most states would refuse the order.

Next, at the local level, talk to your Sheriff or Chief of Police and ask them if they would allow or support the federal government in their confiscation of firearms. Put them on the spot now and hold them accountable. I like to think that most states would refuse the order.

Should firearm confiscation begin, solutions are simple. If they cannot live in a community, they cannot work in a community. If their house goes away while they are at work confiscating guns, so be it. Allow them to leave with their family and what possessions they can pack in their car. Point them to California and let them know all the Hollywood types would be happy to financially support them in the fantasy land they wish to live in and that they are not welcome in Free America.

In the end I believe that guns are the glue that hold our country together. Guns keep the government in check and the individual American safe and free. Remove guns and the government will no longer be controlled by the people. The government will control the people.
Finally, it is claimed that the Battles of Lexington and Concord, in 1775 were started because General Gage attempted to carry out an order by the British government to disarm the population resulting in the “Shot heard round the world.”

About the Author
Paul R. Howe is a 20-year veteran and former Special Operations soldier and instructor. He owns Combat Shooting and Tactics (CSAT), where he consults with, trains and evaluates law enforcement and government agencies in technical and tactical techniques throughout the special operations spectrum.

[UWone77]

For those that bought full kits... this has escalated quickly.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/

[Stone]

"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

I am sure most of us would agree that there are people in this world that probably should not own a firearm. P80 made it possible for anyone to order a complete firearm and have it shipped to their home, quite possibly they could have ordered as many as they wanted.

7675

Kit Includes:
PF-Series™ 80% Pistol Frame Kit
9mm Complete Slide Assembly
Stainless Steel Slide w/ Black Nitride Coating
Stainless Steel Barrel w/ Black Nitride Coating
P80® Slide Parts Kit
P80® Pistol Parts Kit w/ Trigger
15 or 17 round Magazine (10 round mags are included for states with restrictions)
Black Carrying Case

Sure seems like a complete firearm to me. While most of the firearms laws are lame and unneeded there still needs to be some firearm laws. P80 has really done the firearms community a disservice.

[alamo5000]

I fear this is going to escalate very quickly.

[BoilerUp]

I am sure most of us would agree that there are people in this world that probably should not own a firearm. P80 made it possible for anyone to order a complete firearm and have it shipped to their home, quite possibly they could have ordered as many as they wanted.


Kit Includes:
PF-Series™ 80% Pistol Frame Kit
9mm Complete Slide Assembly
Stainless Steel Slide w/ Black Nitride Coating
Stainless Steel Barrel w/ Black Nitride Coating
P80® Slide Parts Kit
P80® Pistol Parts Kit w/ Trigger
15 or 17 round Magazine (10 round mags are included for states with restrictions)
Black Carrying Case

Sure seems like a complete firearm to me. While most of the firearms laws are lame and unneeded there still needs to be some firearm laws. P80 has really done the firearms community a disservice.

It's not a firearm. The ATF has long stated it's not a firearm. If it's legal to order all the parts separately, throwing them in the same box doesn't magically make it a firearm.

[UWone77]

"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

I am sure most of us would agree that there are people in this world that probably should not own a firearm. P80 made it possible for anyone to order a complete firearm and have it shipped to their home, quite possibly they could have ordered as many as they wanted.

7675

Kit Includes:
PF-Series™ 80% Pistol Frame Kit
9mm Complete Slide Assembly
Stainless Steel Slide w/ Black Nitride Coating
Stainless Steel Barrel w/ Black Nitride Coating
P80® Slide Parts Kit
P80® Pistol Parts Kit w/ Trigger
15 or 17 round Magazine (10 round mags are included for states with restrictions)
Black Carrying Case

Sure seems like a complete firearm to me. While most of the firearms laws are lame and unneeded there still needs to be some firearm laws. P80 has really done the firearms community a disservice.

The logic is odd to me on their part to be honest. Basically, if you're trying to save money on shipping costs, you've sold a complete firearm.

[Stone]

It's not a firearm. The ATF has long stated it's not a firearm. If it's legal to order all the parts separately, throwing them in the same box doesn't magically make it a firearm.

If its not a firearm then what is it? The only thing missing to make it go boom is a bullet. How is their kit any different from me buying a glock in a box? The only thing missing from the glock in a box to make it go boom is a bullet. Just to be clear the ATF has zero issues with the 80% lowers... That has not changed.

Lets keep in mind why they are going after this:"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

Somebody who walks up to a couple of cops sitting in their car and executes them probably should not have a super easy avenue to acquire a firearm... I mean no disrespect BU, just want to debate on the merits of the topic...

[BoilerUp]

If its not a firearm then what is it? The only thing missing to make it go boom is a bullet. How is their kit any different from me buying a glock in a box? The only thing missing from the glock in a box to make it go boom is a bullet. Just to be clear the ATF has zero issues with the 80% lowers... That has not changed.

Lets keep in mind why they are going after this:"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

Somebody who walks up to a couple of cops sitting in their car and executes them probably should not have a super easy avenue to acquire a firearm... I mean no disrespect BU, just want to debate on the merits of the topic...

No disrespect taken and none intended, but I get somewhere between disappointed and nervous when I see gun-guys start rationalizing shit like this.

You realize it's still an 80% lower in the box, right? So, it's not a firearm. There is no law that I'm aware of (at least at the federal level) that prevents anyone from buying an 80% frame/lower because they are legally not firearms. So, if the item is not restricted, how does that change when other non-restricted things are in the same box? Putting other things in the same box as an 80% lower doesn't turn that lower into a firearm. That's my point.

The ATF's logic, and what you are saying, is that buying an 80% lower is fine, but if that 80% lower comes in a box with all the other stuff you need to complete the pistol then it's not OK. So, if you buy the parts from different vendors, or even add them all to you shopping cart from a single vendor but separately = OK, bundled together as one "kit" = not OK. That's twisted logic, at best.

[Stone]

No disrespect taken and none intended, but I get somewhere between disappointed and nervous when I see gun-guys start rationalizing shit like this.

I dont feel I am rationalizing it, nor am I choosing sides. But just looking at the facts to try and make sense of it while keeping emotions out of it. My positions have not changed one bit. The NFA is BS. The existence of the ATF is highly questionable and the majority of firearms laws are a joke. But there still needs to be some laws in place to prevent chaos. Would you not agree?

You realize it's still an 80% lower in the box, right? So, it's not a firearm. There is no law that I'm aware of (at least at the federal level) that prevents anyone from buying an 80% frame/lower because they are legally not firearms. So, if the item is not restricted, how does that change when other non-restricted things are in the same box? Putting other things in the same box as an 80% lower doesn't turn that lower into a firearm. That's my point.

As foolish as it seems, lines need to be drawn in the sand at some point for personal safety. But again, how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box? 90% of the parts in that box are non regulated as well. P80 could have just made a phone call to the ATF and ran it by them FIRST to avoid this fiasco. I get where your coming from and understand your position.

The ATF's logic, and what you are saying, is that buying an 80% lower is fine, but if that 80% lower comes in a box with all the other stuff you need to complete the pistol then it's not OK. So, if you buy the parts from different vendors, or even add them all to you shopping cart from a single vendor but separately = OK, bundled together as one "kit" = not OK. That's twisted logic, at best.

I agree, so what would be a solution? The logic may be twisted from the get go, the whole 80% thing is just an arbitrary number put together by people in an office somewhere. I dont agree with the ATF, or P80. Just because I point out the flaws according to P80's actions that violate current laws doesnt mean I am for either side.
But even if one of my kids pokes a dog with a sharp stick then gets bit does not mean I get angry with the dog.

[mustangfreek]

The “kit” , I didn’t pay attention to really.

Sure seems sketchy they could sell it that way..and probably the end of p80 unfortunately...oh well , they wouldn’t sell to WA anyways..

80% pieces are just that,pieces of plastic . not a firearm to atf..as they have defined.

[BoilerUp]

I dont feel I am rationalizing it, nor am I choosing sides. But just looking at the facts to try and make sense of it while keeping emotions out of it. My positions have not changed one bit. The NFA is BS. The existence of the ATF is highly questionable and the majority of firearms laws are a joke. But there still needs to be some laws in place to prevent chaos. Would you not agree?

As foolish as it seems, lines need to be drawn in the sand at some point for personal safety. But again, how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box? 90% of the parts in that box are non regulated as well. P80 could have just made a phone call to the ATF and ran it by them FIRST to avoid this fiasco. I get where your coming from and understand your position.

I agree, so what would be a solution? The logic may be twisted from the get go, the whole 80% thing is just an arbitrary number put together by people in an office somewhere. I dont agree with the ATF, or P80. Just because I point out the flaws according to P80's actions that violate current laws doesnt mean I am for either side.
But even if one of my kids pokes a dog with a sharp stick then gets bit does not mean I get angry with the dog.

There needs to be laws...

Lines need to be drawn...

What would be a solution?

P80's actions that violate current laws...

Ok, you are getting to the crux of the matter. I think you are more focused on where those lines should be drawn and I'm more concerned about the manner in which they are drawn. From my perspective, this fundamentally is more about how laws are made, interpreted and enforced then it is about what the law actually says. In this case, no legislation has changed the relevant laws which folks have been operating under for quite some time (anyone know when the ATF first published guidance on 80% firearms?). However, the law as written has some gray area around what constitutes a firearm (.e.g, when does a box of parts become a gun?). Generally speaking, government agencies make and publish their interpretations of the laws which impacts how those laws are enforced. This true for the ATF but is the same model as the EPA, for example.

In this case, that agency has for quite some time held, published, and enforced two relevant items:
1) Every firearm has one piece, typically the frame or receiver, that for legal purposes is treated as "the firearm", and
2) If that piece is less than 80% complete, it is not a firearm

So, lines are and have been drawn for quite some time. If the ATF had simply published a policy memo revising / updating their interpretation I suspect everyone selling "complete" 80% build kits would have simply adjusted and complied. No one really wants to risk violating federal firearms laws, especially when it is how you make your livelihood. However, the ATF instead apparently changed it's mind, didn't tell anyone, and is now seizing property. Note that no charges have been filed and I'm not aware of any new policy or position memos on this topic having been made public.

While I agree we need laws, they need to be clear and consistent. In this case, the ATFs actions appear arbitrary, which actually undermines the legitimacy of the law and the agency.

I think everyone thought they were playing by the rules, as silly as they may be, but now they are at risk for getting burned nonetheless. If you tell me that something isn't a firearm, shipping the not-a-firearm with additional spare parts doesn't change that. Did the ATF just figure out that people are completing the other 20% of the receiver/frame and assembling them into functioning firearms?


how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box?
It's different because the frame is 80% complete and cannot be assembled into a firearm as-is, which is consistent with the ATFs published policy that it is not a firearm and therefore does not need to be transferred as such. The ATF never based the 80% on the fully functioning firearm, they based it on the serialized part, which means the barrel, slide, etc. are irrelevant. I get that people disagree and don't like that, but that is why we have a legislative process.

There are MANY on-line retailers that sell build kits with 80% lowers/frames included. This practice has been going on for years. I suspect all of them are scrambling to stop that practice right now given the ATFs actions, which is probably all the ATF really wanted out of this anyway.

[mustangfreek]

And word is. Biden has said he is going to sign some executive orders regarding 2nd amendment stuff tomorrow.. “ghost guns” as they call them and pistol braces are in the conversation..

Buckle up..

[Stone]

Executive orders carry no weight of law, they are merely suggestions. I wouldn't sweat it...

[UWone77]

Executive orders carry no weight of law, they are merely suggestions. I wouldn't sweat it...

This.

There has never been a training bulletin coming out of my department to alter course on existing laws because of executive orders. Thanks for the suggestion Sleepy Joe, but what statute would we charge people under? We don't.

[alamo5000]

This.

There has never been a training bulletin coming out of my department to alter course on existing laws because of executive orders. Thanks for the suggestion Sleepy Joe, but what statute would we charge people under? We don't.

I just got some marketing material for a polymer 80 blowout sale. [:D]

While I agree whole heartedly with your comment, the POTUS along with some people on the other side can make life miserable for some people. It's sort of like the cop that pulls you over and decides to do a road side inspection of your vehicle because you were going 2mph over the limit.

Whether or not it's legit charges or not they can get people tied up in court for quite some time. Which in this case could well be retail outfits. The minute they find a receipt from Brownells or whoever or a credit card statement from some clown that robbed a 7-11 with a home built gun they can become a thorn in the side of companies that sold the kit whether it's actually part of the law or not.

As an example look at those people that had a mob break down a gate and go out to their lawn. When they went outside with an AR they were well within their rights...but here we sit.

[mustangfreek]

I’m not sweating nothing.. just adding to the crap and seen no other post here about it.

[SINNER]

Not really related to the law topic per say, but it’s staggering the amount of completed P80’s I would see confiscated in Baltimore City on their FB page. At least weekly, sometimes multiple’s a week.

[eric28]

"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

I am sure most of us would agree that there are people in this world that probably should not own a firearm. P80 made it possible for anyone to order a complete firearm and have it shipped to their home, quite possibly they could have ordered as many as they wanted.

7675

Kit Includes:
PF-Series™ 80% Pistol Frame Kit
9mm Complete Slide Assembly
Stainless Steel Slide w/ Black Nitride Coating
Stainless Steel Barrel w/ Black Nitride Coating
P80® Slide Parts Kit
P80® Pistol Parts Kit w/ Trigger
15 or 17 round Magazine (10 round mags are included for states with restrictions)
Black Carrying Case

Sure seems like a complete firearm to me. While most of the firearms laws are lame and unneeded there still needs to be some firearm laws. P80 has really done the firearms community a disservice.

I agree with you on this

[Stone]

Looks like the ATF has set their sights on stabilizing braces next...