If you could only have one...

[alamo5000]

I have been thinking about getting some type of night vision for a while now. I will definitely have to save up for it, but it's a good goal to have.

The question is between night vision and thermal, which one would you get (and why)?

I'm sure there are pros and cons to each one, I'm just not familiar enough to know enough to make a decision.

I am not (yet) asking for specific recommendations but rather a why or why not for each one. Later on I can get into specifics.

In general though I don't want to spend some insane amount. I would say between $1000 and $2000 would be the price range.

I also don't need anything to see a mile away. I'm primarily thinking about say a 100 to 200ish yard ability to ID and/or take a shot.

I'm not sure what form any of this will take. I've seen tons of people with helmet mounted gear and all that, but I've also seen pic rail mounted options, and even things that mount to an existing scope.

At this point I am thinking about maybe mounting something on my 300blk or even my 10.5. Both of them have RDS and one is QD so taking them off isn't a big deal.

I don't know enough to really make any kind of decision but hopefully I can learn more going forward.

[BoilerUp]

Would be good if you defined some priorities. E.g., threat ID on the property, or killing a hog? Pretty limited budget, there. For the "threat ID on the property" I'd think maybe a PVS-14 monocular but then you'd want an IR Laser, too. For the hunting scenario, then the Pulsar / Sightmark scopes could make sense.

I don't own any of the above.

[alamo5000]

Would be good if you defined some priorities. E.g., threat ID on the property, or killing a hog? Pretty limited budget, there. For the "threat ID on the property" I'd think maybe a PVS-14 monocular but then you'd want an IR Laser, too. For the hunting scenario, then the Pulsar / Sightmark scopes could make sense.

I don't own any of the above.

I am starting completely from scratch. At this point I am looking more for pros and cons of NV vs Thermal. Why would one be better than the other or vice versa.

If it comes out that I would need to throw $5 grand at it, I probably won't do it. That said I threw out that 'budget' because I have seen several things that fall in that price range.

As for my use of it, probably primarily for night hunting of pigs, but also for threat ID or whatever around the house. It will more than likely get used but not in some super hard use extreme environment or anything like that. If pigs get to tearing up my yard (or someone else's) I would like the option to go out there at night and help eliminate the problem from a deer stand or whatever.

[Default.mp3]

The general rule of thumb is that thermal is used for detection, while I2 is used for PID.

[Joelski]

Disclaimer: I am not a frequent NV shooter, although I have hunted and shot under NODS a handful of times. That said, here is my advice, based on research that I've done.

And money is the solution to the whole NV question. Cubic dollars. A helmet-mounted binocular NV system can run $7,500 for an acceptable setup, and that's just the tubes. The helmet, mount, battery pack, and any other add-ons are yet to be added to the tally. There's a guy that advertises on the M4C marketplace that offers such a deal on Harris/L3 PVS-14 tubes, white phosphor, gen 3, so, decent start, but not for the faint of heart! NV Guys does have binocular packages closer to 5k, including the mount. Those use PVS-14'a as well, IIRC, but there is a wide range in quality and some "kits" require assembling the components. Returns are another huge factor, and like anything else, "buy once, cry once" and "you get what you pay for" apply in full force.

Another option for you would be a clip-on to mount in front of your weapon-mounted optic, but the limitation is that you're swinging the barrel around, tracking prey, or predators.

A setup that works at a somewhat reasonable price would be a monocular for spotting and an ATN 1x-6x NV or thermal scope. That can be had for inside your budget, and would allow hunting and keeping track of the predators that are trying to surround you without sweeping your buddies.

PS: Those sexy quad tubes that ST6 uses run 40k.

[Stone]

I have only run NOD's once (my sons gear) along with a MAWL he has mounted on his rifle. Its a pretty sweet setup and seems like it would have more versatility than just running a thermal scope. The NOD's can be run by themselves for night spotting or the MAWL can be switched to a different rifle a lot easier than a thermal scope attached to just one rifle. It just seems like a person has more options and configurations with the NOD's setup than a thermal setup... Like Joelski said, buy once cry once. Think long and hard before pulling the trigger on your setup. My kid is in the last phase of ITC, (Marsoc) and I know they are running some high end shite. They mostly run night ops, if you want I can shoot him a text and get some intell on what would be a good setup for what your looking for. On his last break him and his buddies went bush whackin for some hogs at night in NC and I believe he was just running a monocular and a MAWL, IIRC. Oh, and I would up your budget to 8K-10K :P

[Joelski]

My cousin was in the SEAL teams up to 2005. His setup was monocular and he kept his other eye for white light. That would be hard to adjust to walking around with one eye closed at night. Of course, you blow that advantage any time you need your depth perception.

[tact]

Didn’t quite catch it earlier, but is it for people or animals?

Work for me mostly at night with heavy NV use, combined with fair amount of thermal toys. They both have their pros and cons under a variety of situations…..but using them together and utilizing their strengths is money!!

[Default.mp3]

I don't know much about the low end of I2 stuff; my experiences under NODs have purely been in force-on-force roleplaying and some flat range stuff, using a relatively nice dual-tube setup. My time with thermals is very limited, just flat range stuff with my COTI. The budget way I might suggest is to get a budget PVS-14 and just do passive aiming using a tall mount, assuming that your environment has relatively easy detection where you don't need a thermal for detection, since you seem to be wanting to do ambush tactics rather than something more dynamic.

I don't think there's going to be very much overlap with what the military uses and the current presented use case, simply due to issues of budget. One can certainly get into thermals and I2 on the cheap, but expectations must also be managed. I have a friend that's killed pests with a suppressed .22 LR and a cheap IR laser, using a Nest camera to aim with; not exactly high speed, but hey, it worked for him in this specific use case. Stuff like ATN or other budget manufacturers are essentially like what Hi-Points are to guns; yes, they work to a certain extent, but they're still pretty dog shit all around... but if that's all you need, well, mission drives the gear train.

[alamo5000]

Didn’t quite catch it earlier, but is it for people or animals?

Work for me mostly at night with heavy NV use, combined with fair amount of thermal toys. They both have their pros and cons under a variety of situations…..but using them together and utilizing their strengths is money!!

I've never shot anyone, or at anyone, and hope to not have to in the future [BD] That said I would say the primary use would be to shoot pigs that come up into the yard and/or other people's yards and tear stuff up. A good secondary option would be to ID around the house or whatever. Around where I live there are a lot of state prisons and from time to time people escape and have been known to do more stupid things.

That all being said when all that crap was going on for the past couple of years, having the ability to operate at night (even on a really basic level) would be a massive advantage should it ever come to that.

It would be cool to learn how to operate in teams or whatever, but for my primary use this is not in the cards so far. With that in mind I could possibly take out a second person to operate as a spotter or something. I would for the most part be operating that out of a vehicle, most likely a small ATV/Mule or something. Call me lazy but all that physically running around and stuff starts to become work.

Having both would be ideal for sure. In fact that might be an option too. Get a little hand held monocular or something that operates on thermal and then have the NV on the rifle. To Default.mp3's point, I could do detection with one and shoot with the other or something along those lines. If I did get both I would want the option to mount them up so I could swap if I decided to do so.

If this was a money is no object thing I would be having a different conversation all together. The WEVO bug is still definitely alive and well though. [BD]

Right now I am thinking more about a basic setup for me to use on my own in low stress situations like staking out an area for hogs or whatever and use them on/with low recoiling firearms like ARs or something. It is very unlikely that I would ever be running around a shoot house in the dark with a group of other dudes.

[alamo5000]

Given that I am barely starting to look, something like the one in the link below is possibly a contender for what I would use it for. This was kind of more what I had in mind. Then again as always I am open to ideas.

I will look at thermals as well and see if I can find something along the same lines as the NV in the link.

https://sightmark.com/products/sightmark-wraith-4k-mini-2-16x32-digital-riflescope

If I got something like that I might get something like this from Arisaka to go with my existing light. I can just swap out the head for one of the IR heads and hence will have a pretty minimalist setup.

https://arisakadefense.com/malkoff-scout-light-head/

[alamo5000]

Here is a thermal for under $1000 bucks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daBRUVL17Y4&t=354s

[gatordev]

That image really does start to fall apart past 150y. Something to keep in mind with inexpensive thermal is the resolution of the image. Typically they're pretty low, which means the farther away something is, the more blurry and non-formed the images will look on the "screen."

Joelski mentioned the quality of the tube and how it relates to price, and that's really important to understand. Getting something that can react quickly to light, isn't fuzzy, and doesn't have 19 different black dots (blemishes) in the tube ups the price considerably. A Gen 3 OMNI 6 or better seems to be where I'd start if I was going to wear it.

The majority of my career I've used OMNI 4 tubes and they're okay, but in this day and age, why not pay a little more for better clarity in varying light levels? But as was mentioned, you're probably looking at the $3.5-4K minimum for just the tubes.

[alamo5000]

I have a couple of technical question that maybe someone knows about. It's specific to the illuminators more than the NV device.

First off I am just window shopping at present. I haven't even come close to picking a specific product.

That said I see some terminology that I am not quite sure what it means.

1. For example I see things like this: "850nm IR Illuminator"

What does the nm stand for?

2. I also see stuff like: "700mW output"

I take it that just like any other flashlight it would be similar to lumens and/or candela.

Then of course you have design issues such as flood, hot spot, etc which I am a little more familiar with, but the above two abbreviations I am not completely familiar with. A lot of it I suspect has a lot in common with flashlights. Such as I have two Surefire lights, an EDCL1-T and a Tactician. Although one has more lumens (on paper) these two in my opinion are drastically different. One has a lot tighter of a beam that can be fairly effective outdoors to a couple hundred yards (at least). The other (the Tactician) has more lumens but it throws a wall of light but it won't extend nearly as far.

Anyway if anyone has some further info on illuminators please share.

[Joelski]

https://www.rayteccctv.com/blog/2015/02/850nm-vs-940nm-infra-red-lighting/

[Default.mp3]

nm stands for nanometer. It is simply the wavelength of the light. Sensitivity to specific wavelengths will depend on the optic in use. 850nm is the standard wavelength for IR; folks will use 940nm for reduced visible signature if using LED illuminators, though as noted in the above link, there is typically reduced performance due to reduced sensitivity to that wavelength by most devices.

mW is milliwatt, and is equivalent to lumens, which is to say, it is the raw output, and does not account for flood/throw. Note that laser outputs are much more efficient than LED outputs, which means that something like a DBAL-D2 with a 600 mW LED illuminator is somewhere between a full power AN/PEQ-15, which have a 30 mW laser illuminator, and a MAWL-C1+, which can go up to 67 mW.

[alamo5000]

https://www.rayteccctv.com/blog/2015/02/850nm-vs-940nm-infra-red-lighting/

Thank you for the link. That helps.


nm stands for nanometer. It is simply the wavelength of the light. Sensitivity to specific wavelengths will depend on the optic in use. 850nm is the standard wavelength for IR; folks will use 940nm for reduced visible signature if using LED illuminators, though as noted in the above link, there is typically reduced performance due to reduced sensitivity to that wavelength by most devices.

mW is milliwatt, and is equivalent to lumens, which is to say, it is the raw output, and does not account for flood/throw. Note that laser outputs are much more efficient than LED outputs, which means that something like a DBAL-D2 with a 600 mW LED illuminator is somewhere between a full power AN/PEQ-15, which have a 30 mW laser illuminator, and a MAWL-C1+, which can go up to 67 mW.

Thank you!!! That definitely helps. It lets me know that I am on the right track (in my understanding). In my head I was pretty much translating all the other stuff I learned about flashlights over to IR, and it seems like I was correct in that assumption.

If I ultimately start to dabble in this (potentially rather expensive) area, I would like (at least for now) to not have to over do it with equipment and so forth. My first idea is to use all of my existing gear as it sits, but just swap out the head on my light (it is compatible) to an IR head.

Although my experience with NV is extremely limited I don't know if I would want to just walk around illuminating everything all the time. That means the momentary button on my light would be nice. Maybe I am just biased, but I really do like it and how I have it set up. It's simple, no BS, no wires or excessive batteries, and most importantly it's easy to activate when I need it. Plus what I have in mind potentially can cut down on me needing to buying other stuff.

I found this video here about the Arisaka head that I saw on their site. It should give a good idea what to expect from that side of it should I decide to dip my toe into this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tRGmSIVcFo&t=222s

[gatordev]

Keep in mind that whatever way you have to "illuminate" an area/target, you still have to have a way to aim. That then leads to setting up your optic in a way that's compatible with NV. If you're wearing the NV, then that complicates things further, as not everything is functionally compatible with wearing NVGs. A PEQ solves a lot of that by providing a secondary aiming source via the "laser."

[alamo5000]

Keep in mind that whatever way you have to "illuminate" an area/target, you still have to have a way to aim. That then leads to setting up your optic in a way that's compatible with NV. If you're wearing the NV, then that complicates things further, as not everything is functionally compatible with wearing NVGs. A PEQ solves a lot of that by providing a secondary aiming source via the "laser."


Those digital scopes that I am considering all have reticles built in specifically for aiming. The one I have been reading about the most (so far) has 14 total reticle options in nine colors each. It can zoom down to 2x and all the way up to 16x.

It also has an optional external rechargeable battery that mounts to a pic rail (otherwise it runs on two CR123A batteries). With that external battery pack it can continuously run for a long time. The one review I saw regarding the battery said he charges it once I week and goes out night hunting several times a week.

Again, I am not really looking for super ninja seal team 6 functionality, but more like popping a pig that is tearing up someone's yard. It says it has a range out to 300 yards but I wouldn't shoot that far (at night), at least not around here.

7986

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[alamo5000]

At least for now, the general concept would be to start with something like that (to dabble in it), but then later on once I get addicted to it I can spend $15,000 on a setup. [BD]

That said the idea would be to start with that type of setup, then get a hand held thermal that could possibly have the option to also be mounted up to a firearm. I could sit in my lawn chair and detect with the thermal and shoot with the NV.

[alamo5000]

This video shows you how the video looks like at several distances in the day or night. Should give you a rough idea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4X5fdxvkbE

[mustangfreek]

Lol
Alamo and his 8 page replies.. Too much to read to gaf
You hold it down typewriter

[gatordev]

Those digital scopes that I am considering all have reticles built in specifically for aiming. The one I have been reading about the most (so far) has 14 total reticle options in nine colors each. It can zoom down to 2x and all the way up to 16x.

I initially thought you were talking about an IR optic, but now see you're talking about a NV optic. Either way, just be careful with the magnification. There's no way that optic you posted is providing 16x optically (it's too short, or the eye relief would be terrible). There's a lot of digital zoom going on there. Now, with a 4K sensor you can get a way with a lot, but understand the image quality is going to degrade with more mag. On a dark night, that will make NV lose effectiveness quickly. Off-setting that with some sort of illimunator will definitely help (like he was doing in the video). As an aside, you can also use illumination to help counter incompatible/bright lights that are blowing out your NV as well.




It also has an optional external rechargeable battery that mounts to a pic rail (otherwise it runs on two CR123A batteries). With that external battery pack it can continuously run for a long time. The one review I saw regarding the battery said he charges it once I week and goes out night hunting several times a week.

Again, I am not really looking for super ninja seal team 6 functionality, but more like popping a pig that is tearing up someone's yard. It says it has a range out to 300 yards but I wouldn't shoot that far (at night), at least not around here.


Could be a great option, but as others have said, just understand that with using something weapon mounted, the only way you're going to see something is to be pointing your rifle at every thing. That may not be a big deal for where you are, but just understand that it requires muzzle awareness.


This video shows you how the video looks like at several distances in the day or night. Should give you a rough idea.


I only saw the day mode at 20y, so it would be interesting to see how effective it is at a rifle distance and digitally zoomed. It being 4K really does help. Technology is amazing.

[Stone]

At least for now, the general concept would be to start with something like that (to dabble in it), but then later on once I get addicted to it I can spend $15,000 on a setup. [BD]

That said the idea would be to start with that type of setup, then get a hand held thermal that could possibly have the option to also be mounted up to a firearm. I could sit in my lawn chair and detect with the thermal and shoot with the NV.

Just wanted to share something that has helped me and saved me money in the long run. In the past, when researching and window shopping for something I would start at the bottom and work my way up in the quality of an item. The problem with that is I usually ended up settling on a lower end model then needed to sell it to get the one I really wanted/needed in the first place, almost always at a loss. I recently flipped my logic around and started looking at the best of the best and what it offered compared to lower quality items which helps me understand what the best can do for me and for the problem I am looking to rectify. It really helps to shine a light on what lower end models truly lack. In all reality since I am just window shopping this can only help me and not hurt. On the flip side, starting at the bottom and going up from there never really tells me what the next up model is truly lacking and gives me a false sense of quality since I am only comparing it to the model below. This really works well, as 100% of my purchases in the last few years have been rock solid and I couldn't be happier. When I am window shopping, its not about what I can afford (since I am not ready to buy anyways) its about logic, reasoning, and quality to ultimately guide me to the best for my application. Try it, it works...

[Default.mp3]

Just wanted to share something that has helped me and saved me money in the long run. In the past, when researching and window shopping for something I would start at the bottom and work my way up in the quality of an item. The problem with that is I usually ended up settling on a lower end model then needed to sell it to get the one I really wanted/needed in the first place, almost always at a loss. I recently flipped my logic around and started looking at the best of the best and what it offered compared to lower quality items which helps me understand what the best can do for me and for the problem I am looking to rectify. It really helps to shine a light on what lower end models truly lack. In all reality since I am just window shopping this can only help me and not hurt. On the flip side, starting at the bottom and going up from there never really tells me what the next up model is truly lacking and gives me a false sense of quality since I am only comparing it to the model below. This really works well, as 100% of my purchases in the last few years have been rock solid and I couldn't be happier. When I am window shopping, its not about what I can afford (since I am not ready to buy anyways) its about logic, reasoning, and quality to ultimately guide me to the best for my application. Try it, it works...The problem with that approach here is that there is a massive price gap between the low tier digital systems and the low tier analog systems, along with significant differences between the capabilities and modes of use. I would almost put digital scope systems and traditional analog headborne systems to be separate things, outside of something like a SIONYX.

[Stone]

You missed my point, since price is irrelevant when researching... Its about understanding a topic from the best perspective, what the product is, is irrelevant as well since this logic can be applied to anything we are considering buying.

[Default.mp3]

You missed my point, since price is irrelevant when researching...I'd argue that the problem with your approach is that looking at the best of the best for night vision doesn't provide much helpful information about anything that would be in alamo5000's budget, simply because the technologies are very different. Learning a lot about grand tourers doesn't help you much when your budget only allows for a commuter bicycle, when the goal is to get something to get to work.

[Stone]

Your still not getting it, its not about budget, its not about price. That only comes into play later, chew on what I said for a while. Again, price is irrelevant when researching a topic or product its about gaining the best intel to guide me in an eventual purchase.

[Default.mp3]

Your still not getting it, its not about budget, its not about price. That only comes into play later, chew on what I said for a while.I disagree.

I recently flipped my logic around and started looking at the best of the best and what it offered compared to lower quality items which helps me understand what the best can do for me and for the problem I am looking to rectify. It really helps to shine a light on what lower end models truly lack. In all reality since I am just window shopping this can only help me and not hurt. On the flip side, starting at the bottom and going up from there never really tells me what the next up model is truly lacking and gives me a false sense of quality since I am only comparing it to the model below.
You stated that you like to start at the best of the best to better understand your application better. However, the best of the best here offers radically different options and capabilities than the bottom tier options; thus, I would argue it would misguide someone that would have been misguided from starting at the low end, anyway. I agree that critical thinking is integral to solving each problem, but framing it in the context of what the best can offer can offer just as many biases and false starts as constraining yourself at the low end. In this case, there are capabilities that the top end do not have that the low end offers as standard, and vice versa; again, this is because of how different the products fundamentally are.

If you argue that I'm missing the point, and that it's just strictly about critical thinking, and that one can ignore products... then I dunno what the point of saying you "started looking at the best of the best and what it offered compared to lower quality items" is, since that inherently implies that products still matter in order to understand the mission.

[Stone]

I said you missed the point because your first two counter arguments where based solely on price/budget which has nothing to do with what I was trying to get across.

"I would argue it would misguide someone that would have been misguided from starting at the low end, anyway."

Then how is that even an argument if according to your logic both starting points are illogical? "Bad reason fallacy"

Starting at the top tier and working your way down offers a substantial frame of reference that highlights what the lower end lacks. Starting at the bottom and working your way up distorts this because the lower end capabilities are subconsciously referenced and then compared to the higher end. Logic is only as good as its starting point. Starting at the top teaches me what the full capabilities of a system are then I have a better understanding and full view as opposed to starting at the bottom with a 10% understanding of what a system can fully do. Thus, when we research something bias are reduced and better decisions can be ascertained when my starting point knowledge provides a clear vantage point.

[Default.mp3]

"I would argue it would misguide someone that would have been misguided from starting at the low end, anyway."

Then how is that even an argument if according to your logic both starting points are illogical? "Bad reason fallacy"I'm not saying either starting points are illogical. I'm saying that if one starting point is going to trip up someone doing the research, then the other point will, too, because of the drastic differences between the high end and low end in terms of operation, capabilities, and features for night vision.


Starting at the top tier and working your way down offers a substantial frame of reference that highlights what the lower end lacks. Starting at the bottom and working your way up distorts this because the lower end capabilities are subconsciously referenced and then compared to the higher end. Logic is only as good as its starting point. Starting at the top teaches me what the full capabilities of a system are then I have a better understanding and full view as opposed to starting at the bottom with a 10% understanding of what a system can fully do. Thus, when we research something bias are reduced and better decisions can be ascertained when my starting point knowledge provides a clear vantage point.The problem here is that the assumption that the lower end offers less capabilities. This is in many ways not true in the night vision world. Top end analog systems often are much less feature-rich than low end digital systems, due to the very different technologies at play. Things like recording, disturbed reticles, etc., are all fairly easy to find on low end digital night vision scopes, but high end tube-based clip-ons will have none of those features, and will also require a day optic to pair with. High end night vision in general will also pull things like headborne systems into play, which again have limited features compared to digital systems, while also necessitating a totally different mode of utilization. That's the problem I see with your approach; it would work just fine if comparing like against like (e.g., low end tube-based NODs vs. high end tube-based NODs), but that's not really what would be occurring given what suggestions folks have made (digital scopes vs. the tube-based systems that folks have thrown out). It would be like someone with no idea about watches researching high end mechanical watches, and thinking that they would be able to get useful information about an Apple Watch or G-Shock in such research.

I want to stress, the issue I see with your approach is specific to the situation at hand, where the high end and low end are extremely different to each other in very fundamental ways, enough so that I do not see much meaningful crossover between the two.

[Joelski]

Great point. Basically, in order to be well-informed, extensive, top-to-bottom research is necessary.

And while there is a sweet spot for every user, it will never fall into the bottom of the price range. That's just a cold, hard fact of that capability.

Unless your desire is to merely observe under less light conditions with a cheapie monocular, even the slightest bit of capability adds to the price.

This is a great example of the Japanese, and to a lesser extent, Korean industry makes inroads on quality at a price point. To this point, the Holosun stuff has been an aberrancy; and a lonely one. Same story with Consumer electronics and pro sound; You can buy a cheap, knockoff of a quality item, but you won't have the same one in a certain amount of time (usually short).