Turnkey PCC Rifle Options

[gatordev]

Unfortunately the range I normally go to is going 10+ months of being closed and I'm not sure if it's actually going to open again, at least anytime soon. That means the other two options in my area are either a public range that's just not a fun place to shoot, or a semi-public range that has additional bays for members where you can shoot with a holster and do transitions. Those bays, however, require pistol caliber rifles and no center-fire rifles are allowed back there.

At the moment, if I were to join there, that only leaves me with either shooting a .22 AR or a MP5. I would like to be able to get back into shooting regularly, to include reps with an AR-configured gun.

There was a thread earlier about PCCs, but I can't find it, and what I'm asking here is a little more of a narrow question. I'm asking for options for a turnkey, AR-style 9mm rifle. It doesn't have to be a SBR/pistol, and honestly it would make it easier if it wasn't.

The two main options seem to be either the Colt 9mm or the myriad of Glock-mag-based ARs, but a lot of them seem to be all over the place on reliability. The Colt would be the easiest solution and pretty cost effect at ~$1000, as all I would need to do is throw a rail that I already have on there, except I'd also have to buy mags, which aren't cheap.

The Glock options make the mag problem a little easier, as they're cheaper, but I don't own any 33-rnd mags, so I'd have to buy some for that, too.

I've seen the Sig MCX PCC, but that seems like it's got a lot more going on than I need or want.

Anything else I'm missing? And is there a turnkey 9mm Glock-based AR that works and doesn't have "Aero Precision" on the side of it? (I keeeeeed! kind of).

[Jerry R]

I have a New Frontier Armory PCC (pistol config) in .45 ACP. They offer 9mm and 40 Cal as well. They use Glock magazines. "Build it online" and mine came in around eight bills not counting irons and RDS. It has functioned well ... so far.

You can order stuff for a pistol config, or rifle config. Stripped lowers and uppers, or complete uppers and lowers. Mine shown below - I've replace the blade with an SBA-3

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5769&d=1535315242

[alamo5000]

Maybe look at something like this. Keep in mind I've never used any of them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzVHicze2Fk

[Uffdaphil]

CMMG Banshee

[gatordev]

I have a New Frontier Armory PCC (pistol config) in .45 ACP. They offer 9mm and 40 Cal as well. They use Glock magazines. "Build it online" and mine came in around eight bills not counting irons and RDS. It has functioned well ... so far.


Any idea how many rounds you've put through it? Looking at their site, they do appear to be a decent option.


CMMG Banshee

All of the ones I see are pistols (or SBRs), which I don't really want to deal with. However a Banshee upper on something like Alamo posted might be a solution.

[Jerry R]

Any idea how many rounds you've put through it? Looking at their site, they do appear to be a decent option.


I've only run a few hundred through it; mostly hardball. But, it didn't have any problems with my 200g SWC reloads either.

[Uffdaphil]

Gator, I missed that you only wanted carbine length. The CMMG Resolute is the 16.1” model available for Glock or Colt mags. It is spendy at $1800 (Cerakote included), but for me the less violent recoil delayed blowback system is worth it. Don’t have the dough for the 9mm Banshee yet. Be aware it may be a looong wait. My 7.62x39 Banshee took 21 weeks.

You can also use just the upper for your standard AR lower with adapter and save maybe $3-400 bucks. I had a Palmetto Glock 16” 9mm Glock pattern that I replaced with a 7” barrel. I sold it because of the obnoxious clouds of gas suppressed. And I don’t really trust Palmetto for serious use.

https://cmmg.com/resolute-mkgs-9mm-16-1

[BoilerUp]

I put together an Aero Precision EPC. In hindsight, I'm not sure why I bothered as blowback isn't really that enjoyable after shooting better operating systems.

I'd suggest you really consider the Sig MPX. It's a duty and/or competition quality firearm with some pretty innovative engineering. It's a good weapon and one of my favorites. If you've got an MP5, you'll appreciate the smooth cycling of the short stroke gas piston. I actually think it's a bit smoother than the roller lock design.

If that just doesn't do it for you, then the CMMG radial delayed blowback would probably be the next thing I'd consider.

After that, choosing a blowback AR9s would be a function of personal preference for the features / brand you like, but kind of like a 308 AR I'd suggest trying to keep as many of the parts as possible from the same manufacturer to help ensure it works well out the box, but I generally view all of them as range toys. My EPC is fun, I guess, but I'm about to send the barrel back to AP so they can replace it with one with an improved feed ramp design as they are known to have issues with flat nose / TMJ rounds.

[gatordev]

The intent of this is just a range trainer, so the ammo used would pretty much be 115gr ball. That said, after perusing the options here, I think I'm leaning towards the Banshee upper with an existing lower/mag adapter. Seems to be a functional answer that's under budget, even after buying the adapters. I can use an already Form 1'ed lower I have and grab an in-stock short upper. I still need to do some more research on the uppers.

Probably the quickest way to get my original range to open back up is to buy this and then I won't need it.

[UWone77]

The intent of this is just a range trainer, so the ammo used would pretty much be 115gr ball. That said, after perusing the options here, I think I'm leaning towards the Banshee upper with an existing lower/mag adapter. Seems to be a functional answer that's under budget, even after buying the adapters. I can use an already Form 1'ed lower I have and grab an in-stock short upper. I still need to do some more research on the uppers.

Probably the quickest way to get my original range to open back up is to buy this and then I won't need it.

Figured you'd be a Colt 6951 guy. Kind of a set it and forget it like you're looking for, and if you want to dump it, you'll get what you paid.

Also you mentioned mags for the Colt. Try the Duramags. They have worked well for me and are around $20.

[Former11B]

Angstadt Arms makes some nice ones

Here’s a 9mm rifle, takes Glock mags and looks like it needs little upgrading save for maybe trigger, optic and light

https://angstadtarms.com/product/udp-9-rifle/

[gatordev]

Figured you'd be a Colt 6951 guy. Kind of a set it and forget it like you're looking for, and if you want to dump it, you'll get what you paid.

Also you mentioned mags for the Colt. Try the Duramags. They have worked well for me and are around $20.

Initially I was figuring that was the way I'd go, but the Banshee upper is an interesting option. The other benefit of going with the Colt is I can pop off the FSP and throw a spare C4 10" rail on there and it matches a lot of my other configurations of a 10-inch-ish rail system on short guns.

Good to hear about the Duramags. I saw them listed for decent prices.

[gatordev]

Angstadt Arms makes some nice ones

Here’s a 9mm rifle, takes Glock mags and looks like it needs little upgrading save for maybe trigger, optic and light

https://angstadtarms.com/product/udp-9-rifle/


That looks like another option. I'm also going back to the original Colt idea. After looking at the Banshee selection vs price, an 8" gun doesn't make sense if I'm trying to create a training gun that emulates my other rifles. The Colt only requires me to do some minor gunsmithing and I'd have a copy with no additional expenses (other than the mags). If I can buy it locally for what an online + transfer price would be, it seems like a winner. I'll have to see if that Angstadt Arms is sold locally, as well.

BoilerUp: You seem to not appreciate the standard blow-back operating system. Assuming this isn't suppressed, would you agree that it's still a liveable experience?

I feel like I've created my own Alamo thread.

[BoilerUp]

BoilerUp: You seem to not appreciate the standard blow-back operating system. Assuming this isn't suppressed, would you agree that it's still a liveable experience?

Ha! Yes, totally livable, but after you've shot an MP5 I think you get a little spoiled and I'm the type that would rather put $800 towards a $2,000 thing I love instead of spending the money on something that is "livable". In hindsight, I'm not really sure why I felt the need to build the EPC. I just kind of wanted to play with the AR9 thing but was ultimately disappointed. The recoil impulse between a blowback 9 and a .233 is very different.


I'm curious if a 22LR conversion kit would serve your purposes? I've always been tempted to try one of those. Then you are shooting your exact same rifle and mags have the same profile.

[UWone77]

I feel like I've created my own Alamo thread.

And this here folks, is why I love this place. [:D]

[alamo5000]

I feel like I've created my own Alamo thread.

HaHa!!! Welcome to my world ;)

Now that you're on board I don't feel as weird about asking so many questions. LOL

[gatordev]

The recoil impulse between a blowback 9 and a .233 is very different.

Is it sharper? Is it "harder hitting?" Obviously I'm not asking if it feels like a 308 gas gun, but is there more muzzle flip due to the impulse at the shoulder?



I'm curious if a 22LR conversion kit would serve your purposes? I've always been tempted to try one of those. Then you are shooting your exact same rifle and mags have the same profile.

Whoa, whoa, slow down there. If you're bringing 22LR back into the conversation, then I should just configure one my two .22 ARs and use them. The Nordic Component is a bit heavier, and the M&P22 is lighter, but either one would work and have pretty much zero expense. And how can we solve problems if we can't throw money at the problems?

Honestly, this is probably the smartest move and I could just throw a spare Razor I have on one of these and call it a day. But I'm not always the smartest man.

[BoilerUp]

Is it sharper? Is it "harder hitting?" Obviously I'm not asking if it feels like a 308 gas gun, but is there more muzzle flip due to the impulse at the shoulder?

It will depend on the specifc gun of course, but to me it's more like you are feeling the bolt going back and forth more than the recoil from the round being fired itself. 9mm is obviously light recoil, but you have much more reciprocating mass.

[gatordev]

It will depend on the specifc gun of course, but to me it's more like you are feeling the bolt going back and forth more than the recoil from the round being fired itself. 9mm is obviously light recoil, but you have much more reciprocating mass.

Gotcha, that makes sense. Kind of like an op-rod AR.

[UWone77]

AU has Colt 9mm 16" Carbines in stock for $999. That's about the best price I've seen lately on them.

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-9mm-Semi-Auto-16-Carbine-p/ar6951.htm

[gatordev]

Hence my original posit in the thread:


The Colt would be the easiest solution and pretty cost effective at ~$1000, as all I would need to do is throw a rail that I already have on there...

Ky Gun Co has them for a couple bucks more. AU seems to be hit and miss on shipping and tax, so AU is probably still the top contender. I still haven't made it down to my local gun store to see how impressed they are with their products.

[UWone77]

Hence my original posit in the thread:



Ky Gun Co has them for a couple bucks more. AU seems to be hit and miss on shipping and tax, so AU is probably still the top contender. I still haven't made it down to my local gun store to see how impressed they are with their products.

AU is definitely hit and miss. In the last few months however, they've had the best prices (after you factor in shipping) on A Hellion and a M1A SOCOM16. The 4" Python was also tempting.

[gatordev]

Okay, looking for a sanity check here, as I may have come up with an option that's a little less money but I'm not sure if it's cost effective.

AU has the 6951 for $1021 out the door, and after the transfer fees, I'm probably looking at $1061 + the cost for mags. Let's just call the total $1100 with 3 mags on hand.

I've found a 9mm CMMG radial delayed blowback barrel/BCG combo and a BCM upper receiver for $640 out the door. Add in two mag converters and I'm looking at $700. I have all of the other parts on hand to make it a complete upper. This then also allows me to run the upper on an existing AR-15 lower (which I have plenty) as well as giving me the option of cutting the barrel down, should I want to, and put it on a SBR AR lower (which it will probably already be sitting on).

The local large gun store didn't have any 6951s in stock, which would have simplified this process.

So $1100 vs $700 plus some gun-smithing (which the 6951 would need anyway). No extra pain in dealing with the transfer. Is the $400 savings worth it? Am I missing anything else?

[alamo5000]

If it was my money I would do the upper, and not just because it's cheaper. It gives a lot more flexibility in what you are doing. Plus this is a "substitution" as far as I can see so keeping the lower and the controls the same might be a benefit.

[UWone77]

Okay, looking for a sanity check here, as I may have come up with an option that's a little less money but I'm not sure if it's cost effective.

AU has the 6951 for $1021 out the door, and after the transfer fees, I'm probably looking at $1061 + the cost for mags. Let's just call the total $1100 with 3 mags on hand.

I've found a 9mm CMMG radial delayed blowback barrel/BCG combo and a BCM upper receiver for $640 out the door. Add in two mag converters and I'm looking at $700. I have all of the other parts on hand to make it a complete upper. This then also allows me to run the upper on an existing AR-15 lower (which I have plenty) as well as giving me the option of cutting the barrel down, should I want to, and put it on a SBR AR lower (which it will probably already be sitting on).

The local large gun store didn't have any 6951s in stock, which would have simplified this process.

So $1100 vs $700 plus some gun-smithing (which the 6951 would need anyway). No extra pain in dealing with the transfer. Is the $400 savings worth it? Am I missing anything else?

The $400 savings is probably worth it.

You got enough weapons where future resale might be a factor too. If you don't like it and want to dump it, at least you can get your money out of the Colt. Is that worth $400? Leaning.... probably no... but I just like the roll mark.

[BoilerUp]

Okay, looking for a sanity check here, as I may have come up with an option that's a little less money but I'm not sure if it's cost effective.

AU has the 6951 for $1021 out the door, and after the transfer fees, I'm probably looking at $1061 + the cost for mags. Let's just call the total $1100 with 3 mags on hand.

I've found a 9mm CMMG radial delayed blowback barrel/BCG combo and a BCM upper receiver for $640 out the door. Add in two mag converters and I'm looking at $700. I have all of the other parts on hand to make it a complete upper. This then also allows me to run the upper on an existing AR-15 lower (which I have plenty) as well as giving me the option of cutting the barrel down, should I want to, and put it on a SBR AR lower (which it will probably already be sitting on).

The local large gun store didn't have any 6951s in stock, which would have simplified this process.

So $1100 vs $700 plus some gun-smithing (which the 6951 would need anyway). No extra pain in dealing with the transfer. Is the $400 savings worth it? Am I missing anything else?

Well, I'd be torn, too. Part of me says to get the factory gun as you know you'll end up building out a custom upper as a dedicated carbine, anyway. The Colt will almost certainly hold it's value better and is interesting to have in the collection regardless. But, I didn't realize you can get the CMMG barrel / bcg and drop into a mil-spec upper, so now I'm wondering if I can breathe new life into my EPC.

So, sorry, I can't help you. Pros and cons either way. Why do you say the 6951 would need gun-smithing? Do you just mean you'd swap out some parts to make it match your other platform?

[Uffdaphil]

I also didn’t realize you just needed the CMMG barrel/BCG with other parts non-proprietary. That’s the way I would go as I am itching to try the delayed blowback. If you don’t like it the CMMG combo would be an easy sale with most of the rest useful components for future AR builds.

[gatordev]

So, sorry, I can't help you. Pros and cons either way. Why do you say the 6951 would need gun-smithing? Do you just mean you'd swap out some parts to make it match your other platform?

Correct. Based on my research, all it needs is a GI barrel nut (which I have), which is compatible with an already owned Centurion Arms 10" rail. I just realized that I need a new MIAD grip for the 6951, so there's another cost. The 6951 would also "need" a B5 stock, which the CMMG option would not.


... but I just like the roll mark.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not above the emotional satisfaction of a roll mark. I'm just not sure it's worth $400 in this case....unless function goes out the window with my CMMG plan. Then I'll have regrets, do doubt.

[gatordev]

I'm not savvy on 9mm external balistics... If I'm trying to roughly simulate height over bore of a 5.56 gun, and I'm shooting 9mm at 25y or less (probably 15-20y in the bays), I'm thinking a 50-ish yard zero would make that close enough, no?

Progress so far. It looks absurd with the optic, I know, but remember it's a training gun. Still waiting on the muzzle thread protector. I'll build the mags up in the next couple of days. I'm hoping range day will be next week.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52438270533_f43dbdf0ba_b.jpg

[Uffdaphil]

Better look at trajectories for different weight bullets. I shoot mostly sub-sonic 147-158 grains which fall off much sooner than lighter supers.

I’m thinking a zero that corresponds to a 100 yard 5.56 would be good. The POI would never be over. Quick to estimate center mass. Not so hot for close up head shots. My 74 year old eyes are center mass only.

[UWone77]

Just getting a thread protector? No muzzle device?

[gatordev]

Better look at trajectories for different weight bullets. I shoot mostly sub-sonic 147-158 grains which fall off much sooner than lighter supers.

I’m thinking a zero that corresponds to a 100 yard 5.56 would be good. The POI would never be over. Quick to estimate center mass. Not so hot for close up head shots. My 74 year old eyes are center mass only.

So the intent here isn't to make it a combat effective weapon, but instead to mimic the intrinsic height-over-bore issue that a 5.56 gun would have. This PCC will generally only be shot 25y and in in a training environment, as it's currently the only way to work close up stuff with my current range availability situation. If I can hit a full size plate at 100y with my Glock zeroed at 25y (semi-consistently, anyway), the rifle should have even less drop if I were to zero it at 25y, which would normally be a decent choice. But if I'm trying to simulate HOB and shooting a target at 15-20y, POI would pretty much match POA.

I'm thinking (and this is the question) that if I moved the zero farther out, then bullet would still be coming up at 25y and POI would lower than POA, which would be close enough for government work. I'm just not sure how flat 9mm shoots.

The round would just be 115gr ball.



Just getting a thread protector? No muzzle device?

For now. I only have one pistol can, which is currently configured with a 1/2x28 thread to be able to put on a Glock. With no muzzle device, if I wanted to shoot it suppressed, this makes it easy. If I wanted to add something later, I'd probably look at a 3-lug muzzle device, or if the recoil is "worse" than I'm expecting, maybe a CMT brake. But I'm thinking that may not be necessary.

This whole thing is just one big experiment, hence trying to keep the initial cost to entry down.

[gatordev]

Slight configuration change. I ended up moving the Razor over to my SR-15, which donated the NX8.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52454286513_ddffd1e38b_b.jpg


Ended up zeroing at 50y, which I think should work well. Only put 55 rounds through it due to time, but zero malfunctions so far. The recoil really is pleasant. The impulse is "more" than 5.56, but it's "slower" if that makes sense. I need to play with it more shooting off-hand. So far, so good! Now I just need to find the Magpul ladders that are somewhere in my office.

[Joelski]

Sweet stick!

[gatordev]

Just getting a thread protector? No muzzle device?

It seems after doing actual unsupported shooting, this setup does have more muzzle flip than I was expecting during follow-up shots. It's not the end of the world, but it is more than some of my 5.56 guns. So, I'm thinking of trying a small compensator. I have two units in mind, the CMT mini 9mm and the VG6 Gamma 9mm. I've been able to find a little real world info on the VG6 but nothing on the CMT. I like the CMT price-point, and it's not like the upper needs a monstrous brake, but I also don't want to just buy something and then not have it do anything other than be louder.

Anyone used either versions in 9mm?

CMT Version (https://www.cmttac.com/9MM)

VG6 Gamma 9mm version (https://www.vg6precision.com/vg6-gamma-9mm)

[alamo5000]

Griffin has the Hammer comp.

[gatordev]

Griffin has the Hammer comp.

That looks a lot like a BCM Gunfighter. Any idea if this is worth 2-3 times more than the CMT?

[alamo5000]

That looks a lot like a BCM Gunfighter. Any idea if this is worth 2-3 times more than the CMT?

I have one in 5.56 but that's only because that is all that was available at the time. Honestly I didn't even look at the prices. I just know it exists and they have mounts for it that can (I think) fit other suppressors (not just their own).

If you won't be running any kind of can I wouldn't bother, but if you have a 9mm can it might be worth looking at their Plan A or other type of adapters they offer to see if anything fits.

[gatordev]

I have one in 5.56 but that's only because that is all that was available at the time. Honestly I didn't even look at the prices. I just know it exists and they have mounts for it that can (I think) fit other suppressors (not just their own).

If you won't be running any kind of can I wouldn't bother, but if you have a 9mm can it might be worth looking at their Plan A or other type of adapters they offer to see if anything fits.

Yeah, I only have one pistol can (an Omega 45K), so the mount doesn't buy me anything. The video on Griffin's site does have a few seconds of that mount on a much shorter 9mm PCC, and it's "okay" on muzzle control. That gives me an idea of what the CMT device will do. I may just give that a shot since it's a decent price point.

[alamo5000]

Yeah, I only have one pistol can (an Omega 45K), so the mount doesn't buy me anything.

This was what I was talking about... Maybe I am just misreading your response.

https://www.griffinarmament.com/plan-a-taper-mount-adapter-for-omega-nomad-other-1-375x24-threaded-suppressors/

https://www.griffinarmament.com/plan-a-xl-taper-mount-adapter-for-omega-nomad-other-1-375x24-threaded-suppressors/

If you get one of those for your suppressor plus the actual 9mm muzzle device you have the option to suppress it with the can you already own.

[gatordev]

If you get one of those for your suppressor plus the actual 9mm muzzle device you have the option to suppress it with the can you already own.

You read correctly, I just didn't dig deep enough into the Griffin website to find that adapter. I ended up ordering the CMT, but if it doesn't work out, I'll keep this in mind. I'm not sure how much I will want to suppress this, but it's good to have options.

Once again, thanks for the links. This build ended up turning out nicely with your assistance.

[gatordev]

Small update...the CMT brake provided a noticeable difference in muzzle flip. It's not exactly like a 5.56 gun, but it's pretty darn close.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52547220779_5f8a428f1d_b.jpg