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GriffonSec
14 June 2009, 15:16
I'm in the process of building my SBR, and am at a sticking point for a non-folding, fixed front/rear sight. Top of the list is the C4 Diopter style sights as I'm under the impression it would be a bit more "ideal" on a short barrel. Unknown as to future availability on these, and actual user feedback has been a bit of a problem to find. At some point I'm likely to go to an Aimpoint M/ML 3, but the idea is to learn as much as possible with irons up front.

Profile plays a lot into this, I'm not a huge fan of the large knobs hanging off the ends of the LMT type, nor do I need the QD of the Larue rear.

Ideas, suggestions? Also, some real world feedback on the C4 sights would be great as far as pros and cons.

-Steve

spamsammich
14 June 2009, 15:41
The DD fixed sights are in stock and very nicely thought out if you don't need elevation adjustment. It would be my choice for your application, fairly low profile, no knobs sticking out, light weight, and does not encroach on the charging handle area so you can mount it back on the last slot without fear of tearing up your fingers.

GriffonSec
14 June 2009, 16:06
I had forgotten about the DD sight, found it poking around Rainier's site. That's a do-able option also.

I have a set of Magpul MBUS I could use, but I don't see the need for flip ups for this particular rifle. I like them, but so far, I've had issues with a bit of glare in the apeture (it seems) while in direct sunlight.

sadmin
14 June 2009, 18:23
how about the POF option; it may fit your needs. I dont have one personally.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=562

rob_s
14 June 2009, 19:23
Isn't just the DD rear out, not the front yet?

Griffon, do you need both or just the rear?

Troy is also supposed to be coming out with a fixed front (http://troyind.com/FixedHK.html) and their fixed rear (http://troyind.com/FixedRear.html) has surfaced a few places.

spamsammich
14 June 2009, 19:53
oh yeah, you're right Rob. The DD front isn't out yet. What's your time table like Griffon? if you can afford to wait, like if you're still waiting on your paperwork, hold out for the DD front. It looks like it will fit the bill. Or take the knob off the LMT fixed front sight and replace it with a nylock nut.

spamsammich
14 June 2009, 19:56
What I don't like about the rounded front sights is you tend to put the circle in the circle when you line up the sights. It isn't always the case where the front sight post bisects the front "circle" so you may not be as fast or accurate with the HK style fronts. I run into this problem with my Troy HK sights, in my opinion it takes a lot of training and dry fire presentations to break yourself of the habit. I was still having to slow down and thing things through today at the range.

rob_s
15 June 2009, 03:32
Spam I agree. I've noticed this more lately when taking pictures of iron sights where it's easier to just center the outer ring. When I get the image into Photoshop I often find that while I centered the outer ring the post itself is either high or low in the aperture.

GriffonSec
15 June 2009, 06:15
Time table is pretty much the full stamp wait as the paperwork just went out.

I didn't know DD was doing a front sight. Interesting.

Digging around some, I did find the Troy fixed units last night, and that's another workable option. I thought I had seen the fixed rear before. What I haven't thought about is lining the "rings" up between front and rear. Interesting point.

I'm sure the POF has a similar issue, my only concern is that they tend to continuously pop up for sale used, and I'm wondering if there's a specific reason for that. Great looking sight though.

Originally, I had considered going with a simple F sight base, but didn't want to go with basically a 10" rail (9.5 FSP) on the 11" barrel. I'll be using a DD Lite 9.

rob_s
15 June 2009, 06:42
There are rail options that are cut to allow the stock FSB to stick through. If at all possible for your application these are my preferred method. I have two guns where I chopped the FSB (which I still think is the #1 best solution for a low profile gas block) and I kind of regret it on them.

That said, having a bolt-on FSB allows you to move it around and mount it where you want, including a little further back to put a light at 12 O'clock regardless of rail length.

FWIW, I think having a pair of Troy flipup BUIS is the best most versatile solution. They lock in the "up" position and function just fine as fixed BUIS.

Troy front (rear got pinched for another gun), shaved FSB, X300

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/website/X300%20VS%20TLR1/X300mounted.jpg

Stickman
15 June 2009, 09:10
Midwest Industries has a fixed rear sight that is pretty stout, and doesn't have any knobs sticking out.


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WeaponEvolution.com/0O2P8913-1028-Stick-WEVO.jpg


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/WeaponEvolution.com/0O2P8911-1028-Stick-WEVO.jpg

GriffonSec
15 June 2009, 20:51
Rob, That's very similar to what I'm going for with mine. I'm going to try out the Streamlight TLR-1 however. Being able to work around with light position was the main reason to get away from a standard FSB.

Stickman, the MI and DD look similar, yet DD looks to have lightened theirs. What I do like is the A1 style windage adjustment.

I have an extra detachable carry handle that I had considered modifying to work like the LMT if I can come up with a solution for the knob. Still leaves the front sight to deal with as the only extra one is for a gas block mount.

The C4 diopter sight appealed to me due to the V notch. Seemed to me, being new to carbines, that it would be a bit more ideal for close work.

rob_s
16 June 2009, 04:01
"for close work" I'm anxious to try one of the CSAT rear apertures with the notch in the top. I'm actually considering using irons only in a Pat Rogers class in December and running one of Paul's apertures in a Daniel Defense rear sight for the class to suss it out.

jester
16 June 2009, 05:30
I have a C4 diopter rear sight that I used with a standard front sight base. I did like the V-notch for use with an EOtech 552 in absolute co-witness. It provides a nice uncluttered view. When I got the sight, the rear drum would not adjust for elevation due to rust buildup on the threads. I soaked it with PB Blaster penetrating oil and was finally able to break it free with surgical forceps. The $40+ adjustment tool probably would have made it a bit easier.

Another issue you should be aware of is side-to-side play in the rear drum...which mine has a little bit of. Apparently a new ball bearing and spring will solve that problem, but I have yet to take mine apart again. HKPro has a thread on it: http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=532189

All that said, I recently ordered a set of HK416 sights to run on my DPMS LR308 AP4 (16" m4gery)...with a ~13" SWS railed handguard. (I will replace the rear drum with one from an HK91 calibrated for .308) I am aware that they are shorter than the C4s, but it might work out better for my high cheekbones and having sights closer to the bore-line is appealing. Eventually I plan to run an Aimpoint Micro T1 on LaRue's 416 specific 1/3 co-witness QD.

The circle in circle issue shouldn't be a problem with the C4 or HK sights with no front elevation adjustment, correct? The fixed front sight post should perfectly bisect the circle... I was also concerned about the width of the front post affecting precision shots, but the 416 post looks fairly thin. I don't know if the C4s are the same or not.

Here is a link to proper sight picture for the V-notch (pictures on page 2): http://www.hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103921

jester
16 June 2009, 05:44
I tried a CSAT in LaRue's fixed BUIS. I found that the combination of notch and peep-hole let too much light get to my eye and caused the rear to ghost out too much. BUT, that was with an extremely long sight radius and my eye pretty close to the sight.

The sight is designed for an M4 carbine sight radius I believe. Shortening the sight radius did seem to help clarity, as did moving my face farther away. In any event, I went with this sight instead: http://weaponsolutions.com/Welcome.html

I don't mean to rain on your parade...the CSAT might work out really well on a shorter rifle. Keep in mind I have a nearly 13" rail and the .308 upper is longer as well. I will say that it was very nicely machined and well thought out (for standard carbine length).

rob_s
16 June 2009, 06:18
No rain, won't know until I try it.

That sight you linked to doesn't really do what I think the CSAT is designed to do. The CSAT is supposed to give you a way to aim POA/POI at close range as well as at distance, with some amount of holdover involved in between (where holdover is typically 1.5"+/- and doesn't much matter anyway).

If I run it I'll definitely be doing so on a short radius gun since that's all I own.

I'm going to hold off buying the CSAT anyway as it's too small and I'll lose it without the sight to install it in. [BD]

GriffonSec
16 June 2009, 06:28
"for close work" I'm anxious to try one of the CSAT rear apertures with the notch in the top. I'm actually considering using irons only in a Pat Rogers class in December and running one of Paul's apertures in a Daniel Defense rear sight for the class to suss it out.

I've looked at that a few times. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on it when you do. The idea behind my layout for this rifle is "irons only", especially for the first few classes, then add the RDS later for convenience.

Jester, Thanks for the info on the C4. Gives me a better idea on how that sight works.

Looks like I'm leaning towards the Troy Fixed front and rear, with the DD rear the next most likely option. Thanks to processing at the ATF, I have a few weeks to work this out....

Multitaskertools
4 July 2009, 01:58
I'm working on a setup that's totally different; details in a few weeks

JAYTEAM
11 December 2010, 10:02
I'm getting ready to set up my 7.5" 9mm SBR to run "irons only". I already have the DD A1.5 rear, which I'm thinking about putting a CSAT in. I've decided on the Troy fixed front sight that has HK shaped ears. I think I may get the tritium version though, because I don't plan on running an optic.

What do you guys think about that configuration?

Jay

Paulo_Santos
11 December 2010, 14:33
I'm getting ready to set up my 7.5" 9mm SBR to run "irons only". I already have the DD A1.5 rear, which I'm thinking about putting a CSAT in. I've decided on the Troy fixed front sight that has HK shaped ears. I think I may get the tritium version though, because I don't plan on running an optic.

What do you guys think about that configuration?

Jay

If you already have the DD Rea, I'd get the DD Front to match. You can put a tritium on the front also. I'm not a big fan of the HK style.

JAYTEAM
11 December 2010, 19:21
I realized we were talking about different rear apertures when I looked a little closer. I thinking of the Weapons Solutions version with a rear notch.

http://weaponsolutions.com/Welcome.html

I already have the DD rear, and I have thought about using the DD front. I still haven't made my mind up yet. I am leaning towards the Troy fixed HK one though.

Jay