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JustMatt
24 July 2009, 04:34
I have decided to step up to the big boy caliber and sell my .40 XDM. Now my question is about which gun. I have shot a glock 21 and like it enough but I miss my SIG 226 and considering going with a SIG 220. Capacity issues aside (i think we can all agree that more ammo in the gun is better) I was hoping to get some opinions on what is out there in the .45 area. I'm not devoted to polymer or steel frames. Main areas of concern are accuracy and reliability.

rob_s
24 July 2009, 04:36
Concealed carry an issue? Guns like the Glock 21 can be tough to conceal depending on body type and typical attire. On the other hand, I find it easier to conceal a 5" 1911 than a Glock 26.

Army Chief
24 July 2009, 05:34
The "problem" that has emerged in the 1911 game is that we've seen several distinct classes of pistols develop, each according to a particular price point, and each with its own inherent strengths and weaknesses. People tend to invest in one or the other, and then become loyalists without much regard for the larger realities of the market.

In the "basic" category, which I'll define as under $1,000, the pistols with the best reputations are Colt, Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Colt, S&W and Colt. I wouldn't expend a lot of energy looking at other alternatives, even though some may be more worthy than others (i.e. the SIG). At this price point, you will get service grade components, acceptable fit and finish, and some factory-grade tuning. Most serious 1911 pistoleros view these as base guns, and eventually upgrade them over time, which is why I made a subtle hint about going with a Hartford original. Something to think about in this price range is that the fewer bells and whistles you're getting, the better off you probably are. That might sound counter-intuitive, but most of the upgraded/enhanced parts that come on a basic 1911 are going to be discarded at some point anyway, and many require frame modifications that can make custom work more complicated later on, when you really know what you want.

In the "semi-custom" world, you have a higher cost of entry to be sure (usually around $2k), but you're getting a much more finished product. Parts will be "best in class," slide/frame and component fit will be uniformly excellent, the finish details will usually be very, very good and the pistol will be tuned correctly by a competent pistolsmith. This is the minimum standard that a lot of working professionals will recommend, save for those "in between" pistols that started off as one thing but were worked into another by an unusually squared-away unit/department armorer. Recognizeable names in the "semi-custom" category include Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, or Nighthawk. There are others, but I've more or less stopped there intentionally.

If you have a significant amount of money to spend for no particular reason, enjoy museum pieces, don't shoot much, or only intend to buy one 1911 in your life with the intention of seeing your great-grandson treasure it, there are $3k and even $4k offerings from many of these very same shops and smiths. Still, while I'm sure the Bill Wilson Signature pistol is a lovely shooting iron, if I'm going to spend $4k or more, then I'm going to have a custom pistolsmith start with an empty workbench, and build me a masterpiece. I'm thinking a Caspian frame and slide, and someone like Ted Yost or one of his boys. For the price, you'll get everything you got in the semi-custom class and more, much more.

The difference between an excellent 1911 and a truly majestic 1911 isn't so much the components used, or even how the gun is spec'd -- it is how much time it spends on the bench under a master's hand. In the age of CAD, a competent 1911 can be assembled by a factory employee with a basic level of understanding of his/her task; however, the best 1911s are still hand-wrought works of art, and relatively few pistolsmiths posses the skill, patience and care necessary to deliver a pistol that commands -- and truly deserves -- a price tag of several thousand dollars. Some, however, do.

So, where does that leave us? Back at the beginning, probably. If you just want a 1911 to shoot and enjoy, buy a Colt. If you want some nice upgrades, but have the same purposes in mind, buy a Kimber. If you're serious about using the 1911 as a defensive tool, jump up to the semi-custom realm and look at something like a Wilson CQB or Brown/Nighthawk equivalent. I'd stop there, quite honestly, though I suspect that someday I will stop gawking at photos and actually commission a "full house" .45 from one of the greats. Until then, I'm quite content with my Wilsons. :)

AC

tac40
24 July 2009, 06:18
Have you tried the Springfield XD 45? You already shoot the XD 40. If you are a recreational shooter and not considering carrying it on you and already have some knowledge on shooting, perhaps the 1911 should be considered. I carried the Sig P220-45 cal for several yrs, I like the pistol but it was a big gun to lug around off duty. For a fun 45 to shoot, try the Glocks, Springfield XD and HK. Good luck.

JustMatt
24 July 2009, 06:21
Concealed carry is not a big issue. I'm 6'3" and 300lbs so I can conceal a howitzer on my person if I need to. Plus I have a 'murse' I carry in often.
Chief, you gave me alot of info to think about when it comes to 1911's. This is not going to be a museum piece or something I can pull out of the safe and show off to the guys. I want a 'go through hell and come out shooting' gun. She ain't gotta be pretty, just accurate and tough. Thats why I was leaning torwards Glock. My previously owned SIG never failed to fire once in 8 years and thats why I mentioned the 220. I hear/read that 1911 are harder to keep running than the others and thats a concern. Not that I don't keep my weapons cleaned and oiled just that I like to think that in adverse conditions they will function as needed. My budget would be $1k at most.

Army Chief
24 July 2009, 06:26
I'd say the inverse is true: it isn't hard to keep a 1911 running, but it can sometimes be hard to get one that runs as it should out of the box if you were trying to save money on the initial outlay. Short of bad magazines or the odd extractor tension issues, a properly set-up 1911 is actually a lot more reliable than folks have been led to believe. People just run into trouble when they buy an inferior model to begin with, or [shudder] decide to improve things with some good old-fashioned home gunsmithing.

For your purposes, make it a Colt or a Kimber, stay away from aftermarket crap, and enjoy your new .45.

AC

JustMatt
24 July 2009, 13:06
Tac, I don't dislike my XDM but i'm not in love either. I loved my SIG 226 and wish I hadn't sold it but that's water under the bridge. I was leaning towards a Glock 21 but now Chief has me thinking 1911. I have never shot a 1911 so that's probably where I should start but if I can get into a good Kimber or Colt for under/at $1k that might be a option. Guess I got some researching and shooting to do, my local indoor range has a verity of pistols to rent and they might have a 1911 in there somewhere. Good info and lots to consider. Thanks.

Army Chief
24 July 2009, 14:49
I think that I misunderstood to at least some degree in that I thought the premise here was that we were talking about 1911s in particular, when in fact, we were talking about .45s in a more general sense. I still favor the 1911, but I also like the SIG P220 quite a bit -- even though I know that the .45 variants don't have a universally stellar reputation across their production history. I'll leave those distinctions to others, but I carried the P226 once upon a time as as LEO, and I see no reason why the P220 wouldn't inspire the same confidence. I just think that the 1911 has been an enduring baseline for very good reason, and in the right hands, it is still one of the best fighting pistols available -- at any price.

AC

oregonshooter
24 July 2009, 15:36
The XD grip is too long IMO. I won one at last years IDPA State match and tried to replace my G17 for EDC with it, but it was a no go.

I have packed a G21 as an EDC in a Milt Sparks Watchman and it can be concealed as well as the G17 with a good holster (the Alessi PCH is best) but I'd rather have 17 rounds of 9mm for the same weight and thinner profile than 13 of .45 with a G21.

When you start looking at 1911's you are entering another world. I had a custom built Caspian GM model for a few years as my EDC and the weight difference/ammo capacity between it and the G17 made the switch easy after I realized that the caliber (in pistols with modern HP ammo) is of little affect on terminal performance.

If your hands fit the G21 go with it. It is reliable above all others and has the least amount of recoil in any .45 I've shot. When it is all said and done I come back to the Glocks because they are tried and true, and the gun is a tool that needs to work 100% of the time for me with little maintenance or breakage issues and with the Glock price point it is hard not to see how they make the best sense for EDC if they fit your hand/shooting style/concealment needs.

JLSKIP
24 July 2009, 15:51
If all my money weren't tied up elsewhere right now, and I didn't already own this exact model, I would pick this up in a heartbeat.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34666&highlight=springfield

Something to be said about a pistol design that hasn't changed much in the span of 100 years.

oregonshooter
24 July 2009, 15:55
Something to be said about a pistol design that hasn't changed much in the span of 100 years.

True, but todays 1911's have changed much in 100 years.

nice pistol though and at a good price!

JustMatt
24 July 2009, 18:18
My department's issued sidearm is a Glock 21 so that's another reason why it appeals to me. But as I am a corrections deputy I don't carry on duty every day. So it's kinda a toss up. I do like the way the 21 shoots but I need to get my hands on a good 1911 and a 220 for some comparison shootin.

oregonshooter
24 July 2009, 18:28
If your department encourages (read: not anti CCW) and allow the issue gun to be carried, I'd go that route for sure.

I carried a 1911 on duty as a reserve for a few years because it was my CCW but switched to the G21 for duty for a mounted light option (M6 is a wonderful thing for dirtbag compliance) but to keep continuity I carried the G21 EDC also.

It is doable with proper holster. Without a quality fitting holster the G21 is pretty tough. Much tougher than the thinner versions from Glock.

The Versa Max is another good option for the G21, but the metal band mouth does add bulk and is not as comfy IMO.

Personally I like the Summer Special designs better because the gun is not so low in the waistband and affords a better "combat grip" without interference.

JustMatt
25 July 2009, 03:56
Being in Corrections (that's the important way of saying Jail Guard) my Sheriff frowns on CCW even though by my states governing body (FDLE) I can carry. That being said we (Corrections) don't get issued a personal firearm, we have to draw from the armory whenever we are assigned a armed post.

rob_s
25 July 2009, 04:08
If by FDLE you mean Florida Department of Law Enforcement, why not just get your CCW for the state and remove all doubt? Assuming, of course, you're talking about concealed carry outside of work.

Army Chief
25 July 2009, 12:07
Haven't ever served in corrections, but I'm more than a little surprised that off-duty carry is discouraged/not-permitted. If parole officers generally feel the need to carry, then I would think that a prison guard would have twice the incentive to retain a bit of "added capability" on the street. Am I missing something here?

AC

Gray
25 July 2009, 12:43
Before you finally decide, take the time to look/shoot the S&W M&P 45 with thumb safety. It may be a pleasant alternative.

Gray
25 July 2009, 12:52
A. Chief,

As a LE dinosaur (the name gray should really be flesh tone), the past is another country...they do things differently there.

I recently had a neighboring police chief tell me to talk with one of his subordinates regarding a firearm issue because he "does not know anything about guns"; at least he was honest. The reality that he and many (if not the majority) can ascend to those positions without that knowledge stands as a stark reminder of the current state of the vocation.

Always remember: When you are hired, your funeral is already amortized. Two cops in a car are synergistic in efficiency, and with that comes litigation that cannot be amortized. It is cheaper to put one cop in a grave than two cops in a car.

gunnut284
25 July 2009, 15:46
I have had a Sig P220 and have a G21SF. I sold the Sig to get the Glock. Just wasn't happy with the trigger or accuracy of the Sig. And I'm issued a P226. The S&W M&P line is nice as well. I carry the Glock regularly IWB without much problem though a smaller gun is easier.

JustMatt
25 July 2009, 18:21
Rob S. - I am ashamed to say that I just haven't gotten around to it. I know all I got to do is send in the paperwork and $75 bucks but somehow that money keeps finding its way out of my wallet.

And I hate to tell you Chief, the Administration in my county is less than pro Corrections. We are paid the same and are issue the same badge but in the eyes of the Chief Deputy and the Sheriff we are red headed step children. I could go a county north or south and be treated very differently.

Back to the guns, thanks for the opinions and advice. Like I said earlier, just gotta find some time to shoot them and decide.

oregonshooter
25 July 2009, 18:24
JustMatt,
You should be covered under the LEO federal law. No need to spend money on a CCW.

Gray
25 July 2009, 19:01
JustMatt,

I was not saying I was a chief, I was replying to army chief re his comment about ccw. Sorry for the confusion.

Army Chief
25 July 2009, 23:46
Gray,

No worries: your previous post was clear and concise. I think JustMatt was actually responding to my earlier remarks.

Former LEO, and current Chief (Army CW4) here -- but I am definitely not a police chief, either. :)

So, it sounds like we've arrived at the Glock, if we want to go with something familiar and largely bulletproof, the SIG if we wish to branch out slightly, but still stay in familiar territory, or a 1911 if we're willing to master a new manual of arms. Might as well toss the HK 45 into contention as well -- what I've seen of this pistol has been impressive. (I'll bet a used USP would be quite affordable, too, if you had any interest there.)

Finally, back in May I had an opportunity to check out the new FNP-45, and that too looked to be a very promising design.

AC

Stickman
26 July 2009, 09:16
I would certainly take a look at a P220, I carry that over my G21 for days where I want a .45 for offduty events.

I've carried my G21 in plain clothes assignments, and it works, but the P220 is much easier and is more like a 1911.

Gray
26 July 2009, 10:06
No arguments with the comments, but I see not much support for the M&P. Is that just because of its newness or are there other issues?

cmoore
26 July 2009, 11:22
Don't forget the Springfield 1911 double-stack that takes the Para-Ord magazines. One of our guys at work carries it on-duty and really likes it. I've shot it and find it comfortable to shoot. If you're sold on the 1911-style, and want the capacity, that may meet your needs.

Happy gun-hunting....[:D]

JustMatt
26 July 2009, 12:55
OregonShooter - I wasn't being a smart@$$ I was actually talking to ArmyChief, sorry for the confusion. I'm not ruling out a 1911 but I am concerned with getting a quality piece for under $1k. Seems like there are more opinions about 1911's then there are about which AR platform to choose. One group loves Kimber the other hates them, Colt's seem to be a highly regarded piece but I can't find any info on there website. I do love my old SIG but the cost of a P220 would almost get me into a 1911. Then you have the capacity issues of the polymer framed guns holding 3-5 more rounds than the steel framed guns. I feel like a fat kid in a doughnut shop, to many tasty options to choose! Stick, when you carry your 220 do you use the 8 round mags or the 10? I was curious if the 10 rounder sticks out the bottom funny or is it flush? And now Gray has me looking at the M&P which looks like a decent gun at a good price. I need to just say screw it and get em all! The girlfriend would love that

Creeky73
27 July 2009, 16:38
Just thinking out loud here...I was considering a 1911 for a spell, and I decided against it for many of the reasons AC brings up in this post. I get the impression that a sub $1k 1911 is probably not quite the gun that one would expect if they have had no previous experience with that platform...and I have little. The only one that I have personally fired was a custom job but I have no way of knowing how it stacks up against the mainstream high dollar versions. I do know, however, that I do not want to spend $900 on another gun that I feel compelled to spend another grand or more on after the fact. My AR has already turned into too much of a money pit. But one thing I wonder...everyone speaks so well of the enduring design of the 1911, how it must be fantastic since it has survived and flourished this long. I don't hear too much about other guns where master craftsmen spend so many hours tweaking and tuning to perfection, resulting in these $4k guns, so I wonder how much better other designs could be if they received even a fraction of the attention that the 1911 gets? In other words, are these high dollar custom guns that most people will never be able to afford setting an unrealistic standard for 1911's? I am thinking you could just about turn a Hi-Point into something pretty sweet after $3k worth of work at a master gunsmith, so is that really saying much for the platform?

Stickman
27 July 2009, 17:06
No arguments with the comments, but I see not much support for the M&P. Is that just because of its newness or are there other issues?



I've heard good things about the 9mm & .45 versions, but have not tried any of them myself.

Gray
27 July 2009, 20:28
Stick buddy,

You owe it to yourself to try them. Talk to Chris Corino (S&W's NW rep), great guy, easy to work with. He came out to our location (East Moose Nipple) with his whole repertoire.

bigcoastie
28 July 2009, 03:55
Here's my choice for a .45

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii328/bigcoastie/CIMG0663.jpg

Taurus 24/7

I like that it has a single action / double action triggger, integrated lock, load chamber indicator, decocker, and manual safety. I've had nothing but good things to say about it and actually I kind of prefer it to my glocks at the moment.

Boris
28 July 2009, 18:03
I started w/ a Taurus PT945 back somewhere around '96. It fell apart and lesson learned. Traded it for a Kimber Series 1 (Target) which I will never get rid of. Added a P220 as a replacement as my primary carry gun for the lightweight frame, shortened slide, night sights, etc. enhancements for a single stack "carry" .45 ACP. Thought I could assimilate, but never liked the DA/SA trigger. Purchased a M&P 9 full-size for stock service competition to emulate the 1911 as best I could in 9mm for half the price. Loved the M&P9 so much I sold the P220 and got the M&P 45 (without thumb safety) as my primary carry gun which has most of the attributes of the 1911 (at half the price) with all the reliability, accuracy, safety and added capacity [over the single stacks.]

+1 for M&P 45s

-B

JustMatt
30 July 2009, 17:45
Ok, so I went to my local gun shop and traded in the Springfield XDm .40 torwards a new Glock 22 RTF2 .40. I know I started this thread to talk about switching up to a .45 but I have ammo and other accesories for .40 cal's and it would have been to much of a hit on the checking account to re-do everything in .45. I liked the RTF2 frame alot more than the 3rd gen, it's quite sticky. I pick it up next tuesday and I will head straight to the range and report back with some photos and my opinion, if anyone is interested that is. Thanks for all the advice and opinions you all gave.

Stickman
2 August 2009, 13:50
I think a lot of us would be interested in your feedback on your new weapon, just make sure you start a new thread or people are going to be lost.

JustMatt
3 August 2009, 06:02
No problem, I pick it up tomorrow and plan to head straight to the range to break it in. I'll post a new thread and some pics later tomorrow night.

Continuity
4 August 2009, 10:08
Being in Corrections (that's the important way of saying Jail Guard) my Sheriff frowns on CCW even though by my states governing body (FDLE) I can carry. That being said we (Corrections) don't get issued a personal firearm, we have to draw from the armory whenever we are assigned a armed post.

It sounds like you are a certified peace office. If so, IMHO, I would leave the CCW permit alone. Rely on the authority your commission grants you to carry a weapon.

My experience in the jail environment, especially intake vestibule, would say that at least once (this week [:D]) someone has stated that they are going to kill you when they get out.

Reason enough to carry off duty for me.

BTW my vote is for the Sig220. Accurate, reliable.... single stack mags.(Glocks are double stacked, fat grips), and no levers to fumble with under duress to fire.

I'd do 1911 if I shot every day, but I don't, and I know very few people that do..

tac40
4 August 2009, 10:48
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/IMG_4944.jpg

HK 45

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/IMG_4945.jpg

HK 45 Rainier Arms

I suppose you can blame stick's influence for this, at least thats what I told my wife. [BD]

JustMatt
4 August 2009, 13:59
Continuity, I know that I'm covered under FDLE policy but my department is headed by lawyer who has exactly 54 months experience on patrol and that was 15 years ago. Lately they have been out to get rid of anyone that gives them a reason to. He is trying to make a name for himself so he can move up the political ladder. That being said, I don't think having a CCW would hurt anything and I'm prob gonna take the class with my girlfriend because she works in the jail as a civilian and it seems we are seeing more and more inmates (former inmates) outside of work. As for the HK, that is a nice weapon Tac. If I had your money I would shoot a HK to. [:D] I did pick up my new Glock today and I'm gonna post a new thread with a couple pictures. Had the opportunity to make some extra cash today so I didn't make it to the range, that will have to wait till Friday.

tac40
4 August 2009, 16:37
Brother you have me wrong, I'm broke:(, but I have my family to take care of me:o

I trade all my old stuff for new stuff;) Plus I pick up all my buddies's gear when they drop it or leave it behind.