Remington ACR

[stealth]

I did my best to embed the video but was unsuccessful.

Advanced Armament posted The Skinny (http://www.aacblog.com/?p=3227) on the Remington/Magpul ACR today.

http://11.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kocmlmZATC1qzgon6o1_500.jpg

Hoping to get my hands on one at Silencer Shoot (http://www.advanced-armament.com/silencershoot/).

[tac40]

Keep us posted, video/pics as well if possible.


http://vimeo.com/6073585 This should the link for ACR review

[spamsammich]

umm...he linked the video.

[TehLlama]

To keep this along - would it be fair to assume that there will be a carbine-length piston for a 10.5" Barrel (and maybe 12.5"), then middy-lenght piston for the 14.5", 16", and 18" units?

[Mr.Goodtimes]

is it just me or does this thing look like the SCAR's inbreed brother?

on a side note, i held a scar today and its way different then i expected. MUCH smaller then i thought it would be. The thing looks like a pig in pictures but in person, its very compact and light weight, def on my list of guns to aquire.

[stealth]

From what I can tell they will offer 10.5, 14.5, 16 and 18 inch barrels.

Folding, polymer, collapsible stock.
Trigger finger bolt release.
Rail end charging handle.

Easy hand guard removal for simple barrel switch.
Adaptive Combat rifle works with 6.5, 6.8 and 5.56 by changing barrel, magazine and bolt.

[federalist22]

Remington Military Info Page http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/acr.htm

[JustMatt]

So does this mean that Bushmaster is out? Or are they only doing the civy version?

[Army Chief]

The prevailing wisdom seems to be that Remington will handle contract sales, and Bushmaster retains the lead on civil sales ... which is fairly ironic in view of the fact that that most serious riflemen would be far more interested in the ACR if the abortive Bushmaster angle was just scrapped altogether.

AC

[tac40]

Any updates from Bushmaster, Remington or Magpul. I certainly hope this is not going to be like GM, same product but re-badged for each company, Masada, ACR etc. ; )

[Creeky73]

will civilians be able to buy this, or only LE/military?

[tac40]

I was told there is a version for the civilian market under Bushmaster and Remington ACR for the military market. There was no release date or price, some sources say 2nd quarter of 2010 or as early as fall 2009 for a release date. Perhaps a well connected source here can advise.

[Mr.Goodtimes]

how many people are actually going to buy one of these things that bushmaster makes? all the "serious" people on these various forums will dog bushmaster for making a shit AR-15, yet they're willing to run out and buy a busmaster ACR.

bushmaster cant even make a good copy of eugene stoners rifles, whats to say that they can make a decent copy of someone elses design?

if bushmaster is producing this gun then, it might just be a SCAR for me. I'd consider buying if remington was producing it.

[Army Chief]

In fairness, I don't think the issue here is that Bushmaster can't make a competent AR; it's more that their business model is geared toward building a commercial rifle to a particular pricepoint, rather than a military rifle to a specified standard. Enough people buy on looks alone to make that a perfectly viable proposition, and they've obviously done well.

The average Bushmaster rifle isn't complete garbage; it's just that enough steps have been skipped along the way that the end result represents an unacceptably risky proposition for the working professional. Want an AR-pattern gun to show the guys at the range? The Bushmaster costs less, looks the same, and is available now. Want a hard-use battle carbine that you can trust with your life? Look elsewhere, save your money, and be prepared to wait.

Fast forward to a Bushmaster ACR. Will it be absolutely identical to the Remington variant? If the current model holds true, likely not -- though there will surely be a model which looks the same as the Remington, and for many, that will be more than enough. I truly hope that this isn't the case, but lest this come off as unnecessarily pessimistic, keep in mind that to this point Bushmaster's entire stock in trade has been in doing just that with AR-pattern rifles. Do we really have a reason to think that they would handle the ACR any differently? Facts not in evidence, I suppose.

No doubt about it, the ACR is a leap forward into the future, and I would love to own one -- or several -- but a Bushmaster clone of Remington service-grade gun doesn't appeal to me. That's why I'm watching the Remington/Bushmaster marketing scheme with a certain pensiveness. It's not that I don't like the guys in Windham, or that I wish them ill; it's just that they have a reputation for building to a "good enough" standard that simply isn't. If they can get past that, and leave their ridiculous logo off of the receiver (I'm admittedly shooting for the moon here), we may yet get a version of the Masada worthy of interest; otherwise, I suspect the few Remington guns that make their way to LE distributors will command SCAR-like prices, effectively keeping them out of the hands of those who want (and need) them most.

AC

[AR Performance]

At SHOT last Jan, we looked at both, well we looked at the Magpul Masada, they would not let us touch it, but the FN salesman watched as and we stripped the SCAR in about 30 seconds LOL.

The Masada has some great features but the rail system the bolt slides in/on as it was built made me go hmm?, I heard it has been completly redesigned by Remy or Bushmaster. It will be interesting to see how it works after the current builder gets finished with it.
Just personal opinion, the SCAR is the way I'm going.

[rob_s]

AC has it. I agree that BM makes a sub-standard firearm not because they don't know how to do it right, but because they choose not to.

The ACR, regardless of who makes it, has some FEATURES that may be desireable if executed well. Ambi bolt stop/release, piston operation, modular design, etc. However if they in turn produce it with a 4140, non-lined, and untested barrel with a 1:9 twist and an out-of-spec chamber and pair it with a bolt made of provolone cheese and similarly untested then all the great FEATURES in the world won't make me buy one because it will still be rotten at the core. And, by releasing a gun with a rotten core I will be forced to assume that the guts of the new features will similarly be rotten, thereby negating any benefit they may have had.

and no matter how impeccable the core and features, there are still potential issues with procurement. Want a SCAR? Great, go buy one. Then let's see what happens when your piston breaks on TD2/5 at Gunsite. Think any of your fellow students have a spare? Think FN will sell you spare parts so that you can have a stock of spares? (hint, no they won't)

One of the values of the "milspec" M4 that so many people ignore is that it has become ubiquitous. Like the 1911, Glock 9mm, Remington 700 and 870, etc. Go take a class or shoot a match and chances are that if your AR breaks there is somebody else within spitting distance that either has a spare part and/or can fix it. Break your fancy new "look at me" and see if that happens.

I'm passively interested in the ACR, but even with a rock solid core and a great set of features, it'll be 50 years (and US military adoption) before it ever becomes ubiquitous.

[Army Chief]

A masterful summation, Rob. Appreciated your thoughts on this.

AC

[AR Performance]

You are correct at a $2000-$3000 price it should have the very best of everything and spare parts should be available.

[TehLlama]

Well, it will command $2k+ prices for the forseeable future, so it wll be upon Remington/Bushmaster to deliver at that level - the feature set will probably keep sales afloat either way.

The interchangeable barrels and calibers also make it an extremely attractive choice for those looking at Form1 for their first go at it.

[Cameron]

This thing I can't understand is why on earth they made it with a pistol grips that cannot be changed.

I think I am going to get a FN SCAR instead.

Cameron

[rob_s]

This thing I can't understand is why on earth they made it with a pistol grips that cannot be changed.


I agree with you here. At the very least you'd think they would work in the MIAD interchangeable front and rear straps.

Although at one time it was the upper of the Masada that was going to be the serial numbered part, so if that's the case changing out the lower wouldn't be the end of the world. I always thought that having detachable grips on the serial numbered part was a great idea in case that plastic protrusion of a grip got broken.

[JustMatt]

I think i'll just build another AR pattern rifle.

[bigcoastie]

I'd have to agree on buying another AR pattern rifle unless the price is around the $1500 mark.

[Cameron]

At the very least you'd think they would work in the MIAD interchangeable front and rear straps.
I always thought that having detachable grips on the serial numbered part was a great idea in case that plastic protrusion of a grip got broken.

Especially when you consider it is called the Adaptive Combat Rifle, that is fully-modular yet you can't change the damn grip. Weird.

Looking at the FN SCAR is appears we can install our favourite grips. Looking through Remington's Military sight even their damn super duper Modular Sniper Rifle (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/msr.htm) has the ability to accept any AR15 grip!!

Cameron

[Creeky73]

If I may inquire a little more into the Bushmaster discussion, what exactly is it about their product that makes it so questionable? Is it sub-par parts, or is it sub-par building? Or both? And my next question would be, are pretty much all AR's on the lower end of the spectrum questionable? I mean, obviously you can't expect the same quality of gun if you are comparing a $950 DPMS to something from Noveske or Barrett, but is my RRA viewed as cheap crap because I paid just a shade under a grand for it? I know that for AK's, a lot of people say "an AK is an AK is an AK, only thing that matters is how it was put together." Is it sort of the same thing for low-end AR's?

[Stickman]

However if they in turn produce it with a 4140, non-lined, and untested barrel with a 1:9 twist and an out-of-spec chamber and pair it with a bolt made of provolone cheese and similarly untested then all the great FEATURES in the world won't make me buy one because it will still be rotten at the core.



They aren't, I can't say much more.


Remington has a solid grasp on things.

[Titleist]

Remington has a solid grasp on things.

Yeah but does Bushmaster. Us lowly civilians are concerned with that facet of the deal.

[Stickman]

I can't say anything other than I'm not worried about it.

[Rev68]

If AAC is giving away one or maybe two Remington ACR's at the Silencer Shoot then that would suggest to me that it's Remington that is making them for civilian sales not bushmaster. I find it highly unlikely that Remington would release only two ACR's for the civilian population and have Bushmaster do the rest.

BTY Cameron, another fellow Kiwi here.

[Titleist]

I can't say anything other than I'm not worried about it.

You're a saucy flirt.

[Stickman]

You're a saucy flirt.


Its true.

[TehLlama]

How backwards compatible are the gas systems/barrels going to be? Say, if I wanted all my barrel hardware to originate from Grants Pass, could that be done fairly easily (despite the cost)?

[rebelEMPIRE]

Adaptive barrels... hmmm. That's quite a nice feature in and of itself, but wouldn't you have to zero your optics again?

In my opinion, having adaptive upper receivers makes much more sense--more money, but nonetheless more sense.

I love how everything is ambi and the relocation of the charging handle, but it really doesn't seem much more modular than the AR platform.

Lastly, since it appears that much of the ACR is polymer, I wonder what the overall weight is; it looks lighter than your typical M4 variety.

-rebelEMPIRE

[TehLlama]

Combine an interchangeable barrel with separate operating groups, and you can make the same upper run 5.56, 6.8, 6.5, 5.45 by changing only those parts. THAT'S modular.

Ambi is nice, but couple the bolt catch and charging handle locations together. Now try clearing a double feed... you see where I'm going with this.

From the old technote, it's almost a pound lighter in 14.5" form.
Also, barrel reattachment is within 1 MOA, so zero is workable for up-close (would zero with longest barrel, can switch to shorter in a pinch without re-zeroing). Past 300m, the different external ballistics based on barrel lengths are more of a concern, but since it retains a close enough zero, switching to a shorter barrel is fine.

[caporider]

Adaptive barrels... hmmm. That's quite a nice feature in and of itself, but wouldn't you have to zero your optics again?

In my opinion, having adaptive upper receivers makes much more sense--more money, but nonetheless more sense.

I love how everything is ambi and the relocation of the charging handle, but it really doesn't seem much more modular than the AR platform.

Lastly, since it appears that much of the ACR is polymer, I wonder what the overall weight is; it looks lighter than your typical M4 variety.

-rebelEMPIRE

There is a lot more steel in the ACR than in your typical AR, the piston system weighs more than a simple gas tube, Magpul's polymers are quite dense, and the adjustable stock has many more parts than a standard M4 sliding stock. I'm willing to bet the weights come out pretty close, if not slighly in favor of an M4.

[uspopo]

At much as I want this gun and have funds socked away for it I am not holding my breath on this one..

[Cold]

At SHOT last Jan, we looked at both, well we looked at the Magpul Masada, they would not let us touch it, but the FN salesman watched as and we stripped the SCAR in about 30 seconds LOL.

The Masada has some great features but the rail system the bolt slides in/on as it was built made me go hmm?, I heard it has been completly redesigned by Remy or Bushmaster. It will be interesting to see how it works after the current builder gets finished with it.
Just personal opinion, the SCAR is the way I'm going.

Magpul or others, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Magpul only had MASOUDS in the booth and not MASADAS... or did I just not see the MASADA there? I talked to Drake and Costa but only saw them with the MASOUD.

[rob_s]

the Masada was there, but strapped to the rack and non-removable at the very top of the rack.

[Army Chief]

If, as Stick suggests, we do get a civil version that is every bit the equal of the Remington contract contender, then I suppose my enthusiasm will build rapidly ... at which point, we end up with the second major problem: dealing with supply and demand issues, and trying to find one at a fair price. I'm not suggesting that market forces are somehow the bad guy here, but if the ACR goes the way of the SCAR -- which it inevitably will -- then the feeding frenzy is sure to keep prices high, and availability relatively low, as hoarders work their magic on Gunbroker.

Here's hoping that my atypical pessimism is unwarranted.

AC

[rob_s]

Not only market issues of supply and demand for the base gun, but support supply issues in terms of spare parts etc.

I don't think the uniqueness of the platform is insurmountable (assuming spares are available) since any good shooter is going to have a stock of spare parts, or a spare gun, for any gun that sees hard use. But it is certainly a consideration, and will definitely dampen whatever enthusiasm I have for my uses.

[Army Chief]

Spare parts? You weren't actually going to shoot the thing, were you? ;)

AC

[tac40]

Will this be out by 2012? I have a Mayan calendar date to meet. ; )

[TehLlama]

Bushmaster is still saying Q1 2010. I'm pretty optimistic for later in the year.

[300winmag]

My STEYR AUG seems to be at least as adaptive as this new Magpul/Bushmaster/Remington beast. In fact the American made version of the AUG by MSAR has the option of 5.56 NATO or 6.8 SPC cartridges. I dunno if MSAR's barrels and bolts will fit my AUG but the MSAR is available new for a LOT less than I can get for my used STEYR AUG.

I've had my AUG since 1988 and with ten 30 rnd. and one 43 rnd. magazines, a blank firing adapter, bayonet lug and both standard and split ski sling it will be an easy sale should I ever want to part with "My Precious".

[SilentType]

300 WINMag,

If you need a barrel or anything for your AUG in terms of parts call MSAR and ask for Dave he'll hook you up. The gas block is just a bit different for the AUG than the MSAR, but they can do it for the AUG pretty easily and have already done that a few times already for other folks.

Steyr has parts available for sale as well, but their barrels are only available in 1:9 and you can get 1:8 through MSAR (they did have some cold hammer forged FNH 1:7 barrels) and can get different lengths. The other thing is that the new MSAR barrels are 1/28 pitch so you can mount any flash suppressor you want.

Bushmaster ACR

I think we'll hear something concrete at SHOT Show 2010 about the ACR for us civilians. I would not be shocked at all too see ACR's out toward the end of 2010. I wouldn't hold off my purchases to wait for it unless it takes you a huge amount of time to save up the $1,500 to $2,000 (or whatever they'll charge) to purchase one since I think we'll have plenty of time. I'm looking forward to it.