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WileyCoyote
29 August 2009, 16:28
I just bought a LWRC M6A3 and can not figure out which type and brand of optic to go with. I have spoke with many people and of course they all recommend different optics or scopes.

I am leaning towards the Nightforce 1x4x24 scope with larue tactical mount. However I like the Aimpoint T-1 and the Comp M4s. I also am an oldschool type of guy and really like Leupold scopes but personally I dont think the turrets are as good as the ones on the Nightforce.

Your opinions and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

m24shooter
29 August 2009, 18:30
Have you seen the fighting carbine optics article? Can't remember where it is but give me a minute to find it.

Here you go:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/fighting-carbine-optics-for-the-ar-15/

A lot will depend on what you want to do with your carbine and how you foresee using it. Up close, the 1x will do everything you need. The Aimpoints are great in that arena, and the question would be if you want the size of the Comp or the small, lightweight Micro. You can add a magnifier down the road if you think you need it, and it will work with both models.
The NF is a great optic as well, and will give you the variable power in the same package. You will have a larger optic, but will have the ability to have a CQB capability at 1x and more definition at 4x at farther ranges.

Keebsley
30 August 2009, 09:56
Have you seen the fighting carbine optics article? Can't remember where it is but give me a minute to find it.

Here you go:
http://demigodllc.com/articles/fighting-carbine-optics-for-the-ar-15/

A lot will depend on what you want to do with your carbine and how you foresee using it. Up close, the 1x will do everything you need. The Aimpoints are great in that arena, and the question would be if you want the size of the Comp or the small, lightweight Micro. You can add a magnifier down the road if you think you need it, and it will work with both models.
The NF is a great optic as well, and will give you the variable power in the same package. You will have a larger optic, but will have the ability to have a CQB capability at 1x and more definition at 4x at farther ranges.

I'll echo what m24shooter has said. It all depends on what you want to accomplish with your rifle. I took a carbine class yesterday and got to use various optics ranging from regular iron sights, to an Aimpoint, EOTech, and a NF. Each has their plusses and minuses. If I had it my way, I would go the route of the Aimpoint just for size and space savings. But for what I want out of my rifle, which is an SBR, it makes sense. I would have no issues and would love to have the NF 1x4 for a rifle that would be used for perimeter work but would also be used for more up close and personal aspects. It all depends on what you wish to accomplish.

Titleist
30 August 2009, 10:07
For my SR-15 I'm having this same debate, with a NF 1-4x NXS. My only issue is that if I do 85-90% of my shooting up close, like 50yds but want to have that ability to go to longer ranges, how good the NF is at those closer ranges?

How bad is scope shadow when shooting 1x, etc? Those are the only things holding me back form that purchase.

m24shooter
30 August 2009, 10:44
Titleist:
Here is the "shadow" of a folded down MBUS at 4x and 1x.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/RA%20upper%20and%20ADM/100_1455.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/RA%20upper%20and%20ADM/100_1456.jpg

WileyCoyote
30 August 2009, 11:17
Is that the view through a NF 1x4x24 NXS?

WileyCoyote
30 August 2009, 11:22
Thank you for sending me that article. It was very informative and helpful. If I had the funds I would buy the Aimpoint T-1 and the Nightforce 2.5-10x32 NXS. The company I bought my rifle from the sales guy turned me to the Nightforces but he is like me an old school scope type of guy but he said that NF 1-4x24 is the "cats meow" of CQ scopes with long range capabilities.

Titleist
30 August 2009, 11:41
Titleist:
Here is the "shadow" of a folded down MBUS at 4x and 1x.

Thanks m24. I guess my question really relates to how fast you can acquire targets with it. Obviously that's a loaded and complicated statement. I'm used to the T-1 since with both eyes open I can be on target extremely fast. And when switching shoulders around barricades it's really quite easy.

Obviously with an optical system like the NXS you're dealing with a different style of scope, so that if your eyes aren't dead set behind the scope do you get that "toilet paper tube" like effect?

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I just mean to say that black ring effect that happens when you move off axis from the scope a bit. With the T-1s you're not going to encounter it really, but I'm wondering how much it comes in to play on the short dots like the S&B or NXS.

Also I'm working under ZERO experience trying any short dots out, so I'm pulling these concerns out of my ass here. But would love to know before I start setting the cash aside for one.

m24shooter
30 August 2009, 11:55
Is that the view through a NF 1x4x24 NXS?
Negative. It is a Burris XTR 14 1-4x24 with 30mm body. It will give you an idea of what looking through a 1-4x variable will look like though.


Thanks m24. I guess my question really relates to how fast you can acquire targets with it. Obviously that's a loaded and complicated statement. I'm used to the T-1 since with both eyes open I can be on target extremely fast. And when switching shoulders around barricades it's really quite easy.

Obviously with an optical system like the NXS you're dealing with a different style of scope, so that if your eyes aren't dead set behind the scope do you get that "toilet paper tube" like effect?
Yes. Because of the longer tube, even the true 1x variables will require more head to optic alignment than a true RDS 1x optic. If you have the scope mounted correctly and you can index your head by muscle memory/stock positioning (like NTCH) it will be fairly quick. Shooting off-shoulder will be a little slower. Getting something that is a true 1x will help a lot.


Sorry if that doesn't make sense, I just mean to say that black ring effect that happens when you move off axis from the scope a bit. With the T-1s you're not going to encounter it really, but I'm wondering how much it comes in to play on the short dots like the S&B or NXS.

Also I'm working under ZERO experience trying any short dots out, so I'm pulling these concerns out of my ass here. But would love to know before I start setting the cash aside for one.
You've got some valid concerns. I would say to try one first and see if you like it. The extended eye relief mounts help a lot at positioning the scope correctly. I'm used to shooting ACOGs, and I mount my optics (the magnified ones) where when I bring the weapon up I'm already indexed. This carries over to my 1x optics as well since I mount those for an absolute cowit whenever possible. For that reason, it isn't much of an issue for me. If you don't shoot like that, the "toilet paper tube" effect may be a problem.

Titleist
30 August 2009, 12:43
Thanks so much. I think before I take the plunge I should try to get behind one of these and see how it feels first. Till then I'll rock my T-1.

That helps a lot, thanks for the explanation.

m24shooter
30 August 2009, 12:52
Glad to help.
On my middy project I'm trying to figure if I want to go Recce/SPR light (the Burris XTR or an ACOG) or a straight middy carbine (a T1).
I really like the feel of the carbine. But if it is stupid accurate I may go the heavier way of the magnified optic.

Titleist
30 August 2009, 13:35
I can't say that my SR-15 is all that accurate, it's a durable and light rifle, but it's not too much of a tack driver.

But I totally understand your debate.

Army Chief
30 August 2009, 22:32
For SBR applications, the T-1 is admittedly hard to beat, but I like the idea of a magnified/variable optic on standard length carbines (i.e. 14.5-16"). Which one is right for you depends largely upon your usage model, but my shopping list looks something like this:

1. S&B Short Dot II - This is purely a windfall purchase. I own other S&B glass, and there is no doubt in my mind that the Short Dot remains a best-in-class offering, but I have a hard time justifying a $2,500 investment when funds are finite. On the other hand, if I only had one AR, it would get a Short Dot.

2. NF 1-4 NXS - Nightforce has a great reputation "in the community," and were it not for the fact that the daylight illumination of the FC-1 is a bit sketchy, this might very well put the S&B on level ground. Either way, this is premium glass as a reasonable price point, with the features you want and an innovative reticle that is worth a second look. I will very likely go this route on my next non-NFA AR.

3. Trijicon ACOG/Compact ACOG - This is pretty much where my shopping lists ends, though admittedly, there are so many options in the ACOG line that it is difficult to know where to start. The compacts seem to hold my interest, and what brief experience I've had with them has persuaded me that I should probably start there. I have a dedicated CQB carbine for training and such, but for just about everything else, I can see where an ACOG might be a solid 99% solution. No, it isn't a variable, but there is a good argument to be made for a quality fixed-power optic, and I tend to think that we tend to over-play CQB applications, anyway. Relatively few of us -- even those of us in uniform -- will routinely be involved in room clearing and arms-length engagements with a carbine. If we know that such a fight is coming, odds are there will be a dedicated team (with select fire weapons) involved; if we don't know that it is coming, then we're far more likely to find ourselves responding with a handgun.

Whatever the case, as a member of the over-40 crowd, I'm taking a renewed interest in magnified optics for reasons other than just target discrimination, and any (or all) of these strike me as superior choices for a general purpose carbine.

AC

Paulo_Santos
31 August 2009, 01:31
If most of your shooting is under 50 Yards, I'd get a Red Dot Sight. If you decide that you want magnification, you can always add the 3xMagnifier, which will give you a solid 0-300 yard system.

The 1x4 scopes are nice, but not as fast as a red dot. The 1x4 scopes are better for 25-400 yards.

Army Chief
31 August 2009, 02:24
Concur in principle, though it should be noted that a 3x magnifier is a rather poor substitute for a true variable (or fixed power optic) if that is what you're looking for, simply because of the reduced field of view. This is not a show stopper by any means, but it is something to keep in mind.

AC

TehLlama
5 September 2009, 10:07
Also consider why you need the magnification. I run ACOGs across the board because I shoot well with them up close, but the magnification helps most for identification, less for shot placement.

With any practice it's not hard to make 200yd hits consistent with even the diminutive T-1, so my motivation to use variable power optics is for more precise target ID and placement - MR/T works well for that (though clearly not as well as the NXS or ShortDot 1-4x offerings)


If this won't be your last AR15 - get the T-1 and a QD Mount.
Then get the 1-4x Optic and QD mount with your next rifle - whichever direction you go with your next stick - you'll have an unbeatable CQC optic, and a fantastic general purpose optic.

If your next one is shorter, or lighter - the it gets the T-1. If your next rifle is longer, heavier barrel, and/or match trigger - then it gets the variable mag. optic.

My collection runs the gamut from the M4S Aimpoint (SBR) to a T-1 (lightweight 14.7"), TA31RCO-M4 (14.5" Hvy), MR/T TS30 (16" MedCon Middy), TRS-1 4-16x50mm (18" SPR)

The War Wagon
17 September 2009, 18:58
One thing you don't hear a LOT of in such circles as these I have found, is what optic works well, once you're past PRIME gaming/military service age? :o

Lot of young guys on these sorts of boards are top-flite carbine school grads or instructors, while others are honest-to-goodness Hadji hunters, either headed to or from the sandboxes, and who REALLY push optics to the extreme, there on the 'two-way rifle ranges.'

But for us 40-somethings (and beyond), who find such niceties of life, like, Astigmatism, catching up to us, "following the dancing dots" while even trying to leisurely sight-in, is an exercise in futility, and such optics really aren't DESIGNED with us in mind anyways.

Case-in-point: I had a GREAT EOTech 557, that, sadly, I had to get rid of. All those little ballistic-drop dots just blurred on me, to the point where I was afraid, I was going to no longer going to be able to hit "up!" [wow]

Ergo, I've gone with the "old man optci" now - a Trijicon RX30-23 for BOTH my AR's, and I'm actually punching out the X ring again at sight-in. Will I win the War on Terror with it? If it comes down to THAT, we're ALL doomed. But should trouble approach within 200 yards, I KNOW I can put a hurtin' on it NOW, with an optic my eyeballs can actually utilize! http://weaponevolution.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif THAT'S... a GOOD feeling.

Army Chief
10 April 2010, 16:19
NF 1-4 NXS - Nightforce has a great reputation "in the community," and were it not for the fact that the daylight illumination of the FC-1 is a bit sketchy, this might very well put the S&B on level ground. Either way, this is premium glass as a reasonable price point, with the features you want and an innovative reticle that is worth a second look. I will very likely go this route on my next non-NFA AR.

Reaching back and engaging in a bit of necro-posting, but as a quick follow-up, I did invest in a Nightforce 1-4x a few months ago, and it has served to re-shape some of my thinking. The oft-lamented daylight illumination issue, in particular, has emerged as a largely irrelevant criticism. While it is true that in full sunlight the lit reticle does wash out, it does so leaving a very crisp black aiming point, which under those conditions, is actually a good thing. When cast against dark backgrounds, even with the reticle "off," the aiming circle and hash marks of the FC-1 appear in the negative (i.e. white), again providing more than enough contrast for the shot. Add the lit reticle, which is capable of surprisingly high output levels, and the capabilities of this scope are nothing short of impressive.

I've also become a believer in the unique FC-1 reticle configuration, though it will take more time and shooting at various ranges in various conditions to truly explore its full potential. I may need to run some more specific tests to speak authoritatively regarding any target obscuration or aiming point limitation issues, but I doubt there will be too many surprises in store. It's a good, clear design that naturally lends itself to fast aquisition in ways that conventional crosshairs do not.

There is more evaluation work to do, but on balance, I'm extremely impressed with this scope. Even at a near-true 1x, it is no Aimpoint, but neither is it intended to be. It is, however, "close enough for government work," and I value versatility and a magnification capability more than the pure speed of a dedicated RDS. The weight penalty is quite reasonable, but again, you will notice it, if you're accustomed to something like the T-1. Haven't really encountered any battery life issues yet, but am aware of the potential problem, and I try to manage my "on" time accordingly.

Perhaps most impressively, construction and optical quality compare favorably to my S&B 1.5-6x -- which at half the asking price is no small feat. Again, I would have to consider this a fairly prelminary report, but this is one purchase that I would make again. If you're looking for a 1-4x variable, and need to stay in the neighborhood of $1,200, the compact NXS may well be a best-in-class offering, notwithstanding the fact that it has actually been a couple of years since it first appeared on the market.

AC

TehLlama
10 April 2010, 21:48
In no way will the combination of an aimpoint and a magnifier give you the optical quality, low light resolution, or exit pupil of a variable zoom tube.

I'm curious to see how the newer generation 1.1-8x optics fare (S&B, Leupold CQBSS, Premier, maybe others?), if Trijicon comes out with a BDC/Range Estimation cabable reticle for their TR-24G, or if Swarovski makes a BDC/Daytime illuminated version of their C6i.
I could only justify the $2k+ optics if I got a monolithic barrel/caliber change capable upper. Like M24S said, it's an investment comparable to the value of the rifle it's on.

I'm waiting on something that has solid daytime illumination (battery or fiberoptic/Tritium dual illum), a BDC reticle that's usable for 5.56, mil-dot reticle (preferably with Mil adjustments) - this doesn't exist, but I suspect it will soon. I'm spoiled by the daytime brightness of the Trijicon offerings (TA31RCO mostly) so I'll pay a bit for that functionality.

The strategy I'm adopting is to get a more budget oriented 1-4X optic (I'm getting the Vortex PST 1-4x) [Burris 1-4x or Millett DMS-1 are good choices for this] along with the LT mount I'll use later to get acclimated to the optic, see how it works on the setup I'm running (14.8" suppressed) and use that as a backup gun, continue using a lighter rifle (14.5" LW) with a T-1 in the interim. It might work well for you.

d90king
12 April 2010, 07:55
I just bought a LWRC M6A3 and can not figure out which type and brand of optic to go with. I have spoke with many people and of course they all recommend different optics or scopes.

I am leaning towards the Nightforce 1x4x24 scope with larue tactical mount. However I like the Aimpoint T-1 and the Comp M4s. I also am an oldschool type of guy and really like Leupold scopes but personally I dont think the turrets are as good as the ones on the Nightforce.

Your opinions and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

How do you plan on running your rifle?

Application SHOULD dictate optic. Each optic has its strength and weakness. If you want to keep the weight down (especially on a piston rifle which can be a little front heavy) and use it as a training carbine I would recommend the T1. If you want to stretch its legs and do a little more precision work the NF is an excellent optic. I have the same rifle and went with a T1 to keep it as light as possible. I also have a 3X on a swivel that I can throw on if I am trying to shoot steel out to 400 yds. Optics should be application specific and not whatever is the flavor of the month. I would use a NF on more of a SPR type of build rather than a training or hard use rifle.

Decide how you want to use your rifle then find the optic that suits that purpose best.

Here is an A3 with the T1..

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1308.jpg