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View Full Version : AAR - Magpul Carbine 2, Seattle area, Sept 2nd-4th 2009



rykyard
6 September 2009, 09:24
This is my first post on WeaponEvolution, I've read through posting guidelines and browsed the forum a bit (I've spent some time reading reviews/posts here in the past as a guest user). I find the focus here on quality posts creates a very useful resource with zero noise. Hopefully this is the right place to post this AAR :P


AAR - Magpul Carbine 2, Seattle area, Sept 2nd-4th 2009

Bill B. of the Valley Swat team hosted this class and did an excellent job taking care of all the details, everything ran smoothly and professionally.
The Facility, Auburn Valley Swat Range in Auburn, WA (just south of Seattle) could be described as spartan, though entirely adequate, and conveniently located.
The course instructors where Chris Costa and Drake Clark. What can I say about these two? The level of instruction was exceptional as expected and Drake's LE background was a boon. Great work Drake!

The weather all 3 days was excellent (high 60's to low 70's), with only a few light showers that helped keep the dust down and to remind folks that this is the PNW.

This was originally set to be a LEO/MIL only course but was opened up to civilians at the last moment to help fill up the last few slots. As it happens I had ammo available that was purchased in preparation for another class that I'd hoped to attend last month, my schedule didn't work out for that course, thankfully though I was able to get a few days off for this course and jumped on it.

There where a total of 16 students, 12 LEO's, 1 Mil, 2 civilian and 1 PMC. The LEO component comprised primarily members of Bill's team and ones and twos from other teams from around the Puget Sound area as well as LE instructors and (I think) state academy cadre. The cop jargon/job-descriptions blow by me pretty quickly so someone who knows can give a correct accounting if its important.

Also, I'm sure each of those teams are having their own internal AAR's and I won't speak to their experiences, I'll leave that to Bill and others to post whatever they might feel is appropriate. I will say that I count myself damned lucky knowing that these people will be the ones getting the call when shit goes bad in my AO.

The Magpul core concepts of Reality, Efficiency, Consistency where incorporated into each aspect of the course. I won't go in depth on the specific drills, if other attendees want to post and break it down a bit that would be welcome. I will say that this course is changing and evolving over time so there where a few distinct differences between this course and the Magpul Vol 2 DVD, additionally this particular course's scenarios where focused toward the LEO. Though Drake and Chris do make the point the much of that focus is transferable to the civilian and Mil domain, and a combat mindset is a combat mindset regardless of the domain.

I found the daily morning "kick off" BSA drill to be particularly effective as a measure of improvement. We where using some new Magpul paper targets that where designed around the BSA drill. I believe that these will be available for purchase soon.

In terms of weapon systems it was all AR's, many of them Colts, maybe 25% SBRs and several select fire lowers. For this course I again ran my BCM 16” middy (round count is now up to ~5000), it was rock solid with only 2 malfunctions, neither had anything to do with the upper. The first was a “foreign object” that somehow got lodged into the locking lugs (a small piece of plastic) this caused a FTF and a stuck live round and was easily fixed. The second malfunction was due to a roll pin coming partially out of an H-buffer that caused my buffer spring to bind and was a bitch to fix, luckily it happened on the last drill of TD2.
The only major gun-killing malfunctions where all from the one MIL attendee (Flashpoint) who broke (I think) 3 guns (maybe more), including Costa's gun, one of my guns (a DDM4) as well a slick new type of extended rail switchblock Noveske SBR that Stickman was kind enough to deliver to us from John so that the class could try it out (seen here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37321), though I think the Noveske issues where just with lube, as it was running suppressed. Who knew that 13Fs where toxic?
Pistols where a mix of mostly Glocks, 1911s, Sigs and I ran a HK P30. There where no issues with anyone's handguns that I recall.

I used a Norgon ambi-catch for the first time in a class. I can see that this will help with speed reloads and I was able to do the “L-shaped” tactical reload, however under stress I found myself defaulting and not using the Norgon, obviously a training issue and I may stick with it. I again used the ACLM ambi charging handle with no problems to report. I also went with a single point type sling for the class, an Emdom/MM gunslinger 1-point/2-point sling, without a breadth of experience with 1-point type slings I can't really compare to others, but this set-up created no problems for me during transitional work and general manupulation so I'll call it a win. I also decided to run a padded belt setup for this course, the belt was an ATS Warbelt with Eagle FB pistol mags pouches and AR mag pouch a Safariland 6378 ALS holster on a UBL all of which worked very well. My chest rig was the ATS M4 with ATS H-harness that simply works.

I personally found this course to be immensely rewarding, I was stressed and strained while trying to keep up with some skilled shooters and pushing myself to respond to the demands of the class. I do not use these skills in order to make a living, but I may one day use these skills to save my or my loved ones lives so I don't treat this as a “hobby”. I have the greatest of respect for those who do use these skills to make their living and spend a career honing those skills.

Additionally I'd like to thank John from Rainier Arms for quickly repairing the DDM4 (I'd purchased it from them earlier this year), they are located just a few minutes away from the range and are a great group of guys with a top notch operation.

Also present at the class was Stickman who was doing photos that will be part of the 2010 Magpul Dynamics course catalog so there will be some follow-up posts coming soon with some nice photos.

Addendum: rob_s asked on M4C what broke on the DDM4, my response there:

I should have been specific, the barrel nut came loose. Easily fixed especially with the design of the Omega X 2 piece rail. I don't know if the nut was affixed with insufficient torque originally, but that would be my guess, this is a an early version, low serial number DDM4, purchased prior to some minor adjustments made on new version.

Thanks for reading this far [:D]

Edited to add: this AAR is cross-posted (copy+pasted) on LF, M4C and LMS Defense forums.

Stickman
6 September 2009, 10:06
Good to see you posting over here, and it was good to work with you throughout the course. What was going to be a mix of shooting carbine and camera turned into 99% camera so that we could knock out the 2010 Magpul Dynamics Catalog images. I guess its public knowledge by now that I am Magpuls photographer, and they are great guys to work with.


From a LEO & Instructor point of view, I really liked the way this class was run. I am NOT a big fan of shooting schools where there are lots of breaks or down time. In general, its not how I run my classes, and I feel the faster pace help keep people dialed in tight.

I'll post and rykyard and myself can comment back and forth about the course and give our thoughts, but for now, here are a couple quick pictures....



Drake running his carbine.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1491%201024%20stick.jpg


Costa putting his S&W M&P through its paces while guys were on lunch and I was checking a lighting setup.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1370%201024%20Stick.jpg

Stickman
6 September 2009, 10:08
OP running his blaster... (I can't believe you didn't run your can at all!)


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1613%201024%20Stick.jpg



Checking targets.....

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0025%201024%20Stick.jpg

Titleist
6 September 2009, 18:02
Now our Portland class feels so pathetic in comparison. Thanks alot stick, now I have to go dry my eyes again.

Great looking class. Congrats guys!

tac40
6 September 2009, 19:04
Where are the pics of shooting from beneath a car/truck, any misses there? ; )

rykyard
6 September 2009, 19:41
Where are the pics of shooting from beneath a car/truck, any misses there? ; )

I'm sure there are some shots of that, and yes there where some misses [:D].

A certain SWAT team leader nailed the hood a couple times, you know he his badass because the rounds still traveled trough and hit his target dead on.

Stickman
7 September 2009, 00:02
Now our Portland class feels so pathetic in comparison. Thanks alot stick, now I have to go dry my eyes again.

Great looking class. Congrats guys!


I really wish I had been able to make it down there. Maybe next time.



A few more images from the class....


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0552%201024%20stick.jpg



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1650%201024%20Stick.jpg

Stickman
7 September 2009, 00:03
Where are the pics of shooting from beneath a car/truck, any misses there? ; )


Here is a beneath the car shot, you can tell he was using a muzzle brake because Chris and myself were both spitting gravel right after I took this shot....



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1498%201024%20sTICK.jpg

tac40
7 September 2009, 09:30
Oh Yeah, Love that. A few years back, we did the same drill and one of our finest ended up puting all his hits into the trunk/door of the company car. Our Chief was not happy. [BD] It was funny at the time.

That's a great picture, makes you appreciate flash suppressor over a muzzle break.

Titleist
7 September 2009, 09:33
I really wish I had been able to make it down there. Maybe next time.

Handgun 1 in June, be there or be square. ;)

rykyard
7 September 2009, 10:05
Oh Yeah, Love that. A few years back, we did the same drill and one of our finest ended up puting all his hits into the trunk/door of the company car.


Luckily this was a seizure, still had roach clips hanging from the rear view and a rasta-sticker in the back window, I think a few creases in the hood improved the look. ;)

Stickman
7 September 2009, 16:03
Handgun 1 in June, be there or be square. ;)



One of the things I really liked about this class was the amount of pistol work which was also hammered home. While it obviously wasn't a pistol class, it was used whenever you would transition to pistol in a real gunfight.

While I'm a Glock shooter, I still liked this image.


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0839%201024%20Stick.jpg

rykyard
7 September 2009, 16:44
One of the things I really liked about this class was the amount of pistol work which was also hammered home. While it obviously wasn't a pistol class, it was used whenever you would transition to pistol in a real gunfight.


Completely agree, also working as a team in order to get one's primary back into the fight, along with scenarios/set-ups that required us to de-conflict such that a gun was always in the fight. Costa/Drake where on top of this the whole time, tactical telepathy was in force by the end of the class.

tac40
7 September 2009, 19:03
I guess you can say we cheated a bit with the truck at out class ;)


http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/2009_Mar_MagpulDynamics_Day2221.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/2009_Mar_MagpulDynamics_Day2347.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/2009_Mar_MagpulDynamics_Day2243.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/horseplay/2009_Mar_MagpulDynamics_Day2383.jpg

Stickman
12 September 2009, 10:02
Here are a few more from the class.


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1956%201024%20Stick.jpg




http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0467%201024%20Stick.jpg




http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0472%201024%20Stick.jpg

Stickman
16 September 2009, 09:15
A few more pictures from the class.


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1437%201024%20Stick.jpg



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1591%201024%20Stick.jpg

Jerry R
16 September 2009, 13:21
A great thread and well written intro. Excellent pics as well! Thanks to all for sharing.

Now a question. In some of the photos the shooter has what appears to be a fully extended and locked "off arm". It appears a little awkward, but having not been able to attend a carbine course (yet) there must be some logic behind that grip style.

If someone could briefly explain, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks again.

rykyard
16 September 2009, 14:04
Now a question. In some of the photos the shooter has what appears to be a fully extended and locked "off arm". It appears a little awkward, but having not been able to attend a carbine course (yet) there must be some logic behind that grip style.

If someone could briefly explain, I would really appreciate it.


Jerry, the arm isn't locked, rather the "bend" is horizontal to the ground as opposed to the "normal" perpendicular (elbow pointing down), if that makes any sense. It is really a function of hand/thumb placement though. With the "thumbs forward" support hand grip you position your thumb over the top of the hand guard and as far out as you comfortably can.

It might look a little awkward, but it works very well for getting on target quickly and for achieving quick follow up sight pictures and shots. My understanding is that this form originates from the competition arena (something i have no experience with). For me, it works well for controlling recoil.

If I where to take a longer distance shot from an unsupported position I would not use this grip.


~

Go4broke
18 September 2009, 14:56
A great AAR by Rykyard and fantastic photos by Stickman !

I hope Magpul runs another carbine class in the Seattle area soon.

It would be great to get a chance to train with Costa and Drake.

OUTLAW-ONE
18 September 2009, 17:56
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0839%201024%20Stick.jpg

Spec and info on this BAD ASS custom SA Operator??? Awesome pics as always.

Stickman
19 September 2009, 14:02
Spec and info on this BAD ASS custom SA Operator??? Awesome pics as always.



No idea, I shot the picture, but its not my weapon. Sadly....

rykyard
19 September 2009, 14:45
Spec and info on this BAD ASS custom SA Operator??? Awesome pics as always.


I emailed the owner when I saw your question, hopefully he shows up and comments. If he doesn't I;ll try to get some specs.

I do know that the stand-off is from Lee Hadaway http://www.thearmsroom.com/ and is custom work requiring the weapon to be sent to Lee.

And that pic does rock

OUTLAW-ONE
19 September 2009, 16:34
Awesome! thanks

madkow
19 September 2009, 22:33
The weapon in question is mine, what would you like to know?

OUTLAW-ONE
20 September 2009, 03:52
The weapon in question is mine, what would you like to know?

first of all that is the most bad ass 1911 I think I've ever seen. It looks like a SA Prof Operator. What kind of sights and did you get the custom work done by the custom get shop listed above. Lastly if you dont mind, how much did it cost you?

madkow
20 September 2009, 13:48
The gun was built by Lee Hadaway and has a few Ed Brown extended upgrades as well as a memory groove beaver tail. Sights are a Warren tactical rear sight with a trij green dot front. Houge grip with a medium aggressive backstrap. Gun is armor coated and has a subtle green frame to a subtle black slide. I have replaced all pins and springs except the recoil, sear and main springs. The slide fit is a little loose, but she is a smooth as butter with the spring combo.

I am sure it is just a standard operator as it has no bull barrel or front slide serrations/ TRP markings. The stand off is a newer upgrade by Mr. Hadaway that I had him build. The first gen. made +5 years, but was a little weak. It finally succumbed, I think more from removing it for disassembly, than anything else.

I think I may be the 4th owner with the third being a nozzle that resold as soon as he bought it, trying to pass on his problems to me. From what Lee told me, this gun has had a hard time finding a good home. I saw something I liked and will make this one suit me. I don't expect things to suit me perfectly from day one.

I think I payed 1250 shipped and transferred with 6 CMC 10 rd. mags and a drop leg. I would guess that a custom stand off could run in excess of 400 with your shipping. Email the man and see if he wants to build another.

Hope this helps, last time I wrote this, I lost it because it took too long and I was auto logged off.....damnit

OUTLAW-ONE
20 September 2009, 16:12
thank you for the update. Great price too. Does it fit in a Safariland drop leg with the stand off?

madkow
20 September 2009, 16:42
yes,

If you have a heat gun, you can re-mold the lower portion. I found that the plug in the holster for the m3 light, will fall out, as it is only glued in. But, if I were a little more patient and judicious with the heat, I could have saved it.......maybe.

Stickman
20 September 2009, 19:26
Madkow,

Good to see you over here.

madkow
20 September 2009, 21:29
Glad to be here, and it was a pleasure meeting you recently at the range. Thanks for the help with the trigger group, them primers are the bain of my existence.

I would like to see more pics of that evolution, tell me you have more than just my hands grasping the Operator[:D]

Stickman
20 September 2009, 23:33
Did you have the 3x magnifier with T1 on your carbine?

Stickman
20 September 2009, 23:59
I found you...



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1517-1024-Stick.jpg

Stickman
21 September 2009, 00:04
Another of the pistol....


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0797%201024%20Stick.jpg

madkow
21 September 2009, 08:12
Ooohh, me likey. That camera work is just superb. Makes a ugly mug like me look somewhat presentable. I feel like a junkie who just got fixed up.

Thanks Stick!

Stickman
21 September 2009, 08:21
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1250-1024-Stick.jpg

tac40
21 September 2009, 12:08
Nice pics Stick

madkow
22 September 2009, 16:58
I'm thinkin' this is what happens when you go ludicrous speed and the G-forces send the camera straight to blackout.

Stickman
24 September 2009, 11:26
I'm thinkin' this is what happens when you go ludicrous speed and the G-forces send the camera straight to blackout.



You were running so fast the color was stripped out of the image.... ;)



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0870%201024%20stick.jpg

SilentType
24 September 2009, 17:13
Interesting AAR.

So when they do normal "open courses" is there a emphasis on civilian threats and employment of firearms? Do they sort of change the music slightly for LEO, MIL, and CIVI courses? I tried to get into a course this summer three months in advance, but it was booked. So you've got to act fast when there are slots open.

madkow
27 September 2009, 02:24
Open courses attract many shooters, from the highest speed to the highest drag. Unfortunately, instructors have to teach to that lowest common denominator. That is why many have 1 rated courses and second level etc. etc. Closed courses will focus on a specific skill set tailored for the group. A few things, however, never change. The 5 firearm safety rules and the mindset of having working weapons/gear, keeping these weapons working(unfuck your gear), and ending the threat.

Oh ya, don't forget to scan and assess

WileyCoyote
27 September 2009, 12:03
You were running so fast the color was stripped out of the image.... ;)



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0870%201024%20stick.jpg

Madkow,

I like your gloves what brand are they and where can I pick some up?

Thanks

WileyCoyote
27 September 2009, 12:05
I found you...



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1517-1024-Stick.jpg

Madkow,

Again, what brand of pants are you wearing here in this pic? I like them too. Where can I get some? Thanks

madkow
27 September 2009, 15:23
Gloves - Hatch NS430

http://www.copquest.com/12-1413.htm

Pants - Carhartt double front dungaree

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,87708_Carhartt-Double-Front-Dungaree-Pants-Canvas-For-Men.html

Cheers!

WileyCoyote
27 September 2009, 21:03
Gloves - Hatch NS430

http://www.copquest.com/12-1413.htm

Pants - Carhartt double front dungaree

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,87708_Carhartt-Double-Front-Dungaree-Pants-Canvas-For-Men.html

Cheers!

Thank you sir

Stickman
28 September 2009, 15:28
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK0518%201024%20Stick.jpg



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%204/STCK1518-1024-Stick.jpg