Advice sought on solid AR15 - fund $1200 - $1500

[Venice Will]

This looks like a good "no bull**** zone", and I'm gatherin' as much advice as possible, so please...be patient ("oh, damn, anogther newbie!"[noob]) -

I'm looking for a durable, well functioning AR15 that's comfortable in the urban jungle environment, that could also serve well in limited front range wilderness/camping environment.

$1200 - $1500 (not counting optics) but would spend a little more if the weapon was a long-term keeper.

Les Baer looks to put out a nice piece...? Rock River's reviews look good too. S&WXP15 but I am used to seeing their name in the handgun arena...and then there's Colt. Hybrid stock setups are very interesting - FNH and the IWI Tavor (but I'm not sure a civilian semi has been marketed yet).

Likely looking toward a 14.5" barrel (16 w/front flash cage)...using a low-end Aimpoint or EOTech site for ranges from 25 yards to 100 yards - 300 yards max.

Now I have been exposed to the Noveske VTAC Combat Carbine on THIS forums...maybe I need to increase my starting fund...???

ANY INPUT IS WELCOME - if you have experience with any of those brands, and can recommend one...or more - lay it out, or point me in the right direction (including other posts where this has already been covered.

Thanks

[CCK]

Daniel Defense DDXV carbine, suggested retail 1199.00

Spend the rest on Pmags

Chris

[Stickman]

Daniel Defense

LMT

Noveske


All of these are good carbines, I would rate the Noveske as the top of the list, but its also the most expensive.

Welcome to the board, and don't worry about being new to the AR world. Honest questions are always welcome here.

[rob_s]

www.bravocompanyusa.com

Pick up one of their uppers, lowers, and bolt/carrier groups.
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8343/59827.html

Or get the Noveske N4 Light Recce Basic 16" (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lrb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=). Well worth the premium.

You may also find this (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html) to be of use.

[Eric]

At that price range you can easily pick up a quality carbine, with change to spare to put toward optics.
The Colt 6920 is another option and can currently be had for under $1,200 if you shop around.

[Deaj]

The M&P15 is a solid AR. The only significant consideration is the rifling - the S&W has a 1:9 twist. I believe the others mentioned are 1:7. If the 1:9 is an issue you'll want to take the S&W off your list. Otherwise it's a great choice that, considering your budget, will leave you with a good bit of $$ left over for ammunition and/or accessories.

[John Hwang]

Hard to beat the Daniel Defense or Noveske promotions going on right now.

[GYATES]

I'm an LMT guy. You can't go wrong with a BCM either. The new DD rifles look pretty good too. You can get plenty of rifle for that money. You need to check Rob's chart. It will help you spend wisely.

[shotdown]

I own an LMT and it's been great. However, the rifles mentioned are also great.

[Venice Will]

So where are these "promo's" running for DD and Noveske...?

thx

[tac40]

LMT
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company
Noveske
Colt 6920
fixed budget check with Stag and S&W

[Captains1911]

A Colt 6920 can be had for around $1150-$1200 right now if you look around. Otherwise a complete BCM in which you will have to buy the upper, complete lower, BCG, CH, and handguards separately. Both are excellent options.

ETA: or you can buy a complete BCM, I love my middy:

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26sea rchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M4_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26sea rchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM

[ronrog69]

The Colt 6940 would be my recommendation. Of course, I bias, since I have the 6920. The 6940 is referred to as a modified 6920 because it has the quad rail, which you will want. BotachDefense.com has them for $ 1335.00 with free delivery if you are law enforcement or qualify as a registered member. I paid $ 1339.00 last June, then spent another $ 325.00 on a Daniel Defense 5" Omega quad rail, and rear buis.

[bluecobra]

If you look around you may be able to find a good deal. I was at a local gunshop this past weekend and they had a stack of Colt 6920s on sale for $999. I wasn't looking for one but just couldn't pass it up.

Brand new in the box with 2-20 rd mags and the cleaning kit. For once I was in the right place at the right time.

[ronrog69]

For that price it's a No Brainer. Wish I had a Grand and I'd pick up another one.

[Venice Will]

rob s - that chart is fabulous - THANKS!

One question though...what happened to Les Baer and Wilson Combat in the discussion and chart? are they being "black-balled" for some reason?

[rob_s]

Not blackballed, just not worth the cost IMHO. There are a lot of brands not included at this point, it's just too hard to keep adding every tom dick and harry to the Chart. The important thing is the Explanation of Features. Once you understand the features you can contact any maker and see if they include the ones you want. Careful, as anything other than "yes" or "no" typically does not bode well. Oly, for example, will go on and on for pages as to why they don't do a thing, or will talk in double-speak about a feature only to ultimately admit they don't do it afterall.

[Eric]

With the ever-growing number of AR manufactures/assemblers, it would be just about impossible to keep up.

[rob_s]

that's become the exact issue Eric. There are a lot of new makers that I would ideally like to be able to add, but the Chart would become unreadable and keeping up with the shifting sands of a lot of the smaller makers would get very difficult.

At this point I think the best thing is exactly as I suggested. People can educate themselves with the Explanation of Features, decide which ones are important to them, and then contact the manufacturer of their choosing and ask them if they provide those features.

the only problem with that course of action is that many of them will lie, or let the receptionist answer emails with no idea what she is talking about, or they'll engage in doublespeak trying to make it sound like they do something they don't.

For example, one maker (who is on the Chart) says "all of our barrel steel is magnetic particle inspected". What they don't tell you without further pressing is that, assuming they are telling the truth at all, the steel is MPI as bar stock and prior to it becoming barrels. Completely, totally, and entirely useless, and frankly there is no reason to do it that way at all.

So it's a double-edged sword. On the one hand there are too many makers to keep adding to the Chart, on the other hand too many of them lie or bend the truth to totally trust what they say, but on the third hand chasing down all of their lies and half-truths would become a full time job. Ok, a triple-edged sword?

To bring this full circle to the point of the thread, if you have the budget there isn't any reason to go chasing all these ghosts. At this point in time the only makers that do get added to the Chart are the ones that fall further to the left. The only make/model that's not on the Chart that i would consider is the Knight's Armament SR-15 E3, but that's a $2k+ gun. The Daniel Defense guns are on the Chart,but not in the version I linked to above, and are another one worth considering.

For me, and my money, if you have the scratch I'd pick a Noveske N4 Basic Recce first, a BCM BFH with hammer-forged barrel and mid-length gas tube second, and a standard BCM with mid-length has system third. And don't get confused, as that spread is so close you could separate them with a frog's hair. I own #3 on that list, to give you some idea of how close I think the three rate.

[rob_s]

something else, RE: Colt.

I do still believe that they are the standard in the M4-pattern market. They do things that nobody else does that aren't even on the Chart because most people find them irrelevant. But, there are other features like hammer forged barrels and mid-length gas systems that Colt doesn't do and that make other brands more desireable to me. But you still can't go wrong with a Colt 6920.

The 6940, on the other hand, is an anomaly to me, and typical of Big Colt trying, getting it halfway right, and ultimately not having a clue what people want. The front sight on the 6940 folds, which is kind of silly. The gas system is the 7" and the rail system is therefore limited, and since it's part of the upper you'll be limited to that length forever (or until you change out the upper) so even if you absolutely think you want a rail system (and I'd think long and hard about that if I were you), chances are good that the 6940 rail system isn't what you want, and neither is that front sight.

Rail systems in general are something that I would not buy on the base rifle, and would wait to determine if you really want/need. With a mid-length gas system I find the plastic handguards to be more than serviceable. and this from a guy that owns, and has owned, more than a few guns with FF rails.

[Venice Will]

the advice has been great -

one other question: piston or gas ioperating system ...which offer lower muzzle flip and recoil?

and which of the Ar15 platforms mentioned in here have gone that route?

Thanks!

[Venice Will]

good advice all the way around - my choices are narrowing..

one "newbie" question - piston vs. gas op system for recoil and muzzle flip - which Ar's mentioned have a less pronounced recoil?

thanks again

[John Hwang]

So where are these "promo's" running for DD and Noveske...?

thx

If you buy a DD Rifle you qualify for a $250 black card
If you buy a Noveske Upper or Rifle, you qualify for a free blemished lower

[rebelEMPIRE]

piston vs. gas op system for recoil and muzzle flip - which Ar's mentioned have a less pronounced recoil?

That's an interesting question. Although I don't know myself, i would venture a guess and say the difference between felt recoil is too minute for us to discern since the major moving part is still the BCG. Perhaps it's more important to find the weight of each BCG to determine its inertial properties; is a piston BCG significantly lighter than a gas operated BCG; or do we include the added weight from the piston rod and call it heavier?

A different perspective is to look at the gas venting properties of a piston and conventional AR platform. Piston AR's often devise methods to vent excess gas, therefore using only a necessary amount to actuate the BCG rearward--which indirectly results in no more recoil than needed.

In a gas operated AR, one can fine tune the gas pressure by use of a device similar to Noveske's switchblock, which can also limit the felt recoil.

That said, the overall weight and length of your weapon, muzzle device, buffer spring, buffer weight, etc, etc. all play a much grander role in determining the recoil of a weapon system. I know I didn't answer anything, but I hope I provided some insight. In the end, I personally would like to know, too.

-rebelEMPIRE.

[Paulo_Santos]

one "newbie" question - piston vs. gas op system for recoil and muzzle flip - which Ar's mentioned have a less pronounced recoil?

thanks again

It is hard to make general statements on this because there are several different Piston Systems out there. In my experience, my LMT Piston upper is the softest shooting AR that I ever had. But I have heard different things about other piston AR's. I think it has a lot to do with the gas port size, just like it does in DI. In either system, an overgassed gun will have harder recoil than a properly set up one.

[rob_s]

and as rebel alludes to, weight of the overal firearm will play a huge role as well. Someone shooting a stock 6520 and then an LWRCi or an LMT piston will absolutely notice a difference in recoil. Of course, the 6520 weighs at most 2/3 of what the other guns do.

[Venice Will]

Well, I drove a ways to the largest firearms shop in the area...and "toyed" with some Colt 6920 and 6940's....a Sig 556...a S&W M&P15...a new Ruger AR (heavy as h***)...an FNH SCAR and man are they a pleasure to hoist...no weight...(but I haven't seen a lot of reviews on their performance) and last, but not least, an LWRC M6A2 - THAT piece is on my short list, if I can find a bargain somewhere on the ethernet.

I still want to hook up some time lookin over a Les Baer, a Wilson Combat and a Noveske (if I can FIND stock in the area).

Then...I'll make my choice and pay, pay, pay....

What other other than LWRC) PISTON operated AR15's a worth considering...?
LMT...?

more thanks for the advice and chatter on this linkl...it's appreciated

[Paulo_Santos]

Well, I drove a ways to the largest firearms shop in the area...and "toyed" with some Colt 6920 and 6940's....a Sig 556...a S&W M&P15...a new Ruger AR (heavy as h***)...an FNH SCAR and man are they a pleasure to hoist...no weight...(but I haven't seen a lot of reviews on their performance) and last, but not least, an LWRC M6A2 - THAT piece is on my short list, if I can find a bargain somewhere on the ethernet.

I still want to hook up some time lookin over a Les Baer, a Wilson Combat and a Noveske (if I can FIND stock in the area).

Then...I'll make my choice and pay, pay, pay....

What other other than LWRC) PISTON operated AR15's a worth considering...?
LMT...?

more thanks for the advice and chatter on this linkl...it's appreciated

Out of all that you mentioned, I would get the SCAR in a heartbeat. Everyone that I spoke with that has shot one, told me that they are unbelievably accurate. My second choice would be the LMT Piston since you canchange out the barrels and the piston system works.

[Venice Will]

OK - let's thin the herd -

BEST 3 gas PISTON systems in the same configuration...LWRC, love the feel and quality (M62A...NICE) but only a 2 year warranty - LCM I haven't been able to handle one..others I should consider...?

I have $1550 in hand, and might have a few hundred more -

BCM...where can I get advice on how to piece together an optimal 14.5" Urban Jungle unit...?

THANKS again gentlemen...

and THANKS FOR SERVING to all the servicemen!!! HOO RAH!!!! [adore]

[BigTime]

Just get a Colt LE6920 and get it over with.

[Venice Will]

"NEIGHHHHHHHH"

I held it...didn't suit me - apparently I'm just not a COLT man....

[cz777]

earlier this year ,i got a nice ''gift ''it was a YHM XL carbine with 1/9 twist barrel that's only fault i found it has more points like the inside of barrel extension/bolt lock up area is chromed too its also the stock tube is mil-spec and staked ......very tight fit ! so add this one to the list .....

[rob_s]

"NEIGHHHHHHHH"

I held it...didn't suit me - apparently I'm just not a COLT man....
I don't understand this statement at all.

[Venice Will]

Let me "extrapolate" - buying a weapon is a lot like buying other things... a car....or a fine custom blade...or a new digital camera, cell phone... whatever

it's gotta "feel right" ...in your hands - when you hold it, flip it around, bring it up to your cheek...inspect it...it's either gonna be in the mix, or it's gonna be "nope...not that one"

when I handled the Colt...it was a "naw...not for me" experience...as it was with some others I've tried...just personal preference