PDA

View Full Version : Reliability overkill?



chiz45
28 June 2007, 20:46
Lately on arfcom, there has been a heavy push towards reliabiliy upgrades, like Crane O rings, D-fenders, heavy tension extractor springs, shrouded fire pins, etc. What is the mil-spec requirement for these springs, and are these things exceeding that tension standard? I haven't heard of any problems using these various 'upgrades' (i've used a D-fender, O-ring, green Specialized Armament extractor springs--but NOT all in the same gun!), but was curious if you guys have seen/heard of any problems.

Stickman
28 June 2007, 21:05
Good question, and in my mind, there is a difference between making solid upgrades, and simply changing out parts to make oneself feel good. A good extractor spring and insert are a solid investment, but to start adding on everything you can without knowing why can become a problem.

In general, I have guys take a long hard look at what they currently have, and figure out how it runs. Then, start looking at what to fix. If there aren't any problems, the money may be better spent on ammo, training, and range time. I know that training doesn't sound cool to some people, and it might not look as cool as new gear hanging off a weapon, but until people figure out their limitations, as well as the limitations of their own weapon, they are simply wasting time.

The largest problem I've seen is people changing out things without knowing why.

306FTW
15 July 2007, 18:10
I agree. A lot of ppl put so called reliability features on their rifles/tools/weapons w/out really knowing what they do or sure if they need them.

I wait til a problem occurs before I go tampering with something. Take the Glock for example. People will put steel guide rods, extended releases, lighten the triggers, etc. However...mine works just fine as is and I just have a feeling that if I tampered with it it may never be the same or Murphy will find me at the worst possible time.

On my Colt carbine I was having some extraction issues. Wasn't sure if it was the extractor or something else. I finally narrowed it down to being my extractor spring. I replaced the spring and added an O ring for extra assurance. It ran like a top after that and never had a problem again.

dialM4murder
9 August 2007, 14:19
I think some preventative maintenance measures are Ok. My thing is people who tell you only LMT and Colt AR's will run. Sure, there are bottom feeders companies like model1sales that Id avoid, but I wouldn't blink twice about a Stag upper with a Bravo or LMT bolt carrier group swapped in.

Stickman
9 August 2007, 15:38
dialM4murder,

There is no doubt that the smart shooter will PM his/ her weapon, especially if its a weapon they stake their life on.

I've seen guys change out parts on duty weapons for no other reason than it looked cool, or they heard about it some place. I think thats the sort of problem that is enhanced by some of the internet rumors regarding weapons, components and enhancements.

Smart PM is mandatory IMO.

Eric
9 August 2007, 21:32
Smart PM is mandatory IMO.

Good call. I prefer to swap out parts prior to failure when possible. There really is no downside (short of money) to installing new springs (extractor, ejector, fire control, action spring, mag springs, etc) gas rings, extractors, ejectors, and such...as long as quality parts are used. Most of these parts are actually inexpensive.

Quib
16 August 2007, 21:01
I know that training doesn't sound cool to some people, and it might not look as cool as new gear hanging off a weapon, but until people figure out their limitations, as well as the limitations of their own weapon, they are simply wasting time.


I tried to explain that in a thread on home defense rifles over at ARFCOM. I was told I was shortchanging myself because I didn’t have an Aimpoint on my HD carbine.

I tried to explain that my HD carbine was built on simplicity and reliability and that I personally was more comfortable with a weapon utilizing iron sights verses a rifle with red dot optics.

When things really do go “bump in the night” at 0’dark 30 and I’m awoke from a sound sleep, I want as simple of a weapon as possible. Irons and a good light is all I need.

5.56 Five0
19 August 2007, 05:36
I am a big Aimpoint fan boy but the AR that I have ready to go for HD is my 10.5" SBR with Surefire M900 and carry handle. No Aimpoint on it. My primary duty rifle has an Aimpoint and flip sights but the one for HD is the KISS rifle. Both ride with me at work though.

dialM4murder
19 August 2007, 13:26
Im a civilian, but I do have an Aimpoint on my HD/SHTF AR. Personal preference really. All the doo-dads mean nothing without proper training and know-how. As for "the other site", I wont mention my thoughts as not to violate this sites anti slander policies. Its pretty cool to have LEO/Military input here on this forum.

USMC
21 August 2007, 09:25
Alright, This is my go to gun in the pic. The gun is an LMT with no mods done to the inside. I've added a CTR stock, LMT rear BUIS, EOTECH 551, DD 7.0 lite rail, Tango down VFG, MIAD grip, surefire 6P with Tacstar barrel mount and pressure switch, A DD rail sling mount and a Viking tactics sling. I didn't add any of these parts for the cool factor. I simply wanted to build the most reliable AR I could within my budget.

I've shot about 5000 trouble free rounds through it and I am real comfortable with this setup but I'd like to hear what items on my gun you guys would remove or change and what you would add if anything. Would my setup be considered overkill? I'm always willing to try something new. Thanks


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/USMC/AR15/LMTb.jpg

John Hwang
21 August 2007, 09:40
USMC, your set up is very sweet. I don't think it needs any changes. The only concern I would have is the coil cord. I would take a couple pieces of zip tie and get it tight with the DD rail.

USMC
21 August 2007, 09:56
I will zip tie it to the rail as soon as I get off work! Good idea, Thanks.

riverider4741
21 August 2007, 13:17
Lately on arfcom, there has been a heavy push towards reliabiliy upgrades, like Crane O rings, D-fenders, heavy tension extractor springs, shrouded fire pins, etc. What is the mil-spec requirement for these springs, and are these things exceeding that tension standard? I haven't heard of any problems using these various 'upgrades' (i've used a D-fender, O-ring, green Specialized Armament extractor springs--but NOT all in the same gun!), but was curious if you guys have seen/heard of any problems.
====
If you just need some heavy duty ejector springs and incerts with the Crane O-ring. Bravo has a good price on this item.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20%203pack.htm

If you just want a good deal on just on a #60 Viton O-ring MCMaster Carr has them for $5.55 for 100+Shipping
http://www.mcmaster.com/
It's best to order by phone the Web. site is a problem many times.

Quib
21 August 2007, 16:11
Not the most current pic, but this is my HD carbine.

- DPMS Lt Wt barrel
- BM C7 upper
- RRA lower
- BCM upgraded bolt
- “H” buffer
- SF “classic”

I have 100% confidence in this rifle and in my ability to operate it under any circumstances where I might need it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Metroliner/520wSFClassicSm.jpg

Eric Rice
29 August 2007, 05:37
If manufacturers would just build and spec their rifles with proper parts, this would be a non-issue. Fortunately, a good spring and an o-ring are cheap insurance for the CAR-length guns.

OT: For those of you who might have to use your weapons in low-light conditions (50% of the day), kudos for getting white lights. However, if you've ever trained at night, you'd quickly find out that the red dot optic is more valuable for making good hits than a light.

Nice rifle, USMC. ;-)

riverider4741
16 September 2007, 09:01
I did a little question asking from a few vendors selling AR parts example bolts&carriers I asked about types of materials the heat treating treatments and shoot peening. Types of inspection and proof firing done.

I also asked why the bolts&carriers were not marked with the Mfg. names.

I got very few real good solid answers, it seems it's just a deep dark seceret about such matters.

Many just replied we buy or Mfg. to Mil Spec.

markm
17 September 2007, 09:51
I tried to explain that in a thread on home defense rifles over at ARFCOM. I was told I was shortchanging myself because I didn’t have an Aimpoint on my HD carbine.

I tried to explain that my HD carbine was built on simplicity and reliability and that I personally was more comfortable with a weapon utilizing iron sights verses a rifle with red dot optics.

When things really do go “bump in the night” at 0’dark 30 and I’m awoke from a sound sleep, I want as simple of a weapon as possible. Irons and a good light is all I need.

You sound like markm

jmtgsx
21 September 2007, 20:26
Very nice rifle USMC! [adore]

gotm4
21 September 2007, 20:53
You sound like markm

A well rounded shooter can shoot both irons and things like Aimpoints (my favorite) or EOTech (my fastest)..........it's like kind of like walking vs. running.........it really shouldn't take conscious thought. If it does then you need a lot more training/trigger time IMHO.

Lumpy196
23 September 2007, 22:25
Having owned and operated the AR15 platform in one shape or size since 1988, I can honestly say the addition of a Wolff extractor spring, no matter the buffer insert color has made my guns 100% reliable in all conditions.

I believe in overkill though when it comes to reliability. Crane O-rings didnt cost me much, and they didnt make my guns STOP being reliable, so all my ARs now have them in addition to HD extractor springs.


If you can get your gun very dirty, and very hot and it keeps running, dont sweat it I guess.

In the end though, you lose nothing with a couple bucks invested in violent extraction capability. ;)

clasky
6 October 2007, 19:13
Personally, I think that reliability upgrades don't hurt. I have crane o-rings on all my extractor springs. However, I just made the biggest reliability upgrade by purchasing a gas piston upper. LWRC SRT.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/clasky/KLL_0323.jpg

Todd Kramer
6 October 2007, 21:22
Great picture and rifle clasky.

TigerStripe
7 October 2007, 12:08
If manufacturers would just build and spec their rifles with proper parts, this would be a non-issue. Fortunately, a good spring and an o-ring are cheap insurance for the CAR-length guns.

I believe that most manufacturers put in the least expensive parts (and accessories) that will do the job. Most AR owners will never use their weapon for anything other than plinking, so they get by. For for people like those of you here, you find the weaknesses in your weapon(s) pretty quickly and remedy them.
The use of the bare minimum quality parts in stock AR's is actually good for the AR-based industry because companies like the sponsors here can sell upgrades. The people who do upgrades usually come back to those companies for accessories to personalize their AR's.




OT: For those of you who might have to use your weapons in low-light conditions (50% of the day), kudos for getting white lights. However, if you've ever trained at night, you'd quickly find out that the red dot optic is more valuable for making good hits than a light.
Nice rifle, USMC. ;-)

I agree that while both are good, being able to hit with eyes that are adjusted to darkness would be best for a combat situation. But, I think for police, SWAT teams and civilians in some states use of the white light would be the best way to go just to be able to justify to the authories, higher-higher or grand jury why they shot.


TS


I apologize if I went too far off topic.

Canonshooter
14 October 2007, 05:44
I too am embarking on a reliability upgrade process. Unfortunately (from what I now know), I am starting with a marginal piece - a BM "M4gery" that is about 3 years old. I bought the lower locally and the A2 upper direct from BM. No problems thus far on a strict diet of XM193, but then again I do not have many rounds throught it either.

One the plus side, the lower has a decent trigger, the rifle is more than adequate accuracy wise (just over 1 MOA with XM193 using an ACOG), the upper was assembled straight (little adjustment needed to zero-in irons) and the finish of both the upper and lower are well done and match perfectly.


Based on this, I think it's worth putting some $$ into. I plan on purchasing a BCM Bolt Carrier Group as I understand that the BM BCG is not up to par. I will have to live with the non M4 feedramps for now, though that may not be too much of an issue as I stick with 55 grain FMJ ammo anyway. I am still debating which stock to go with (currently have a fixed stock), but will problably go with a CTR "kit" that includes the mil-spec tube, spring and buffer, and do a proper staking. I am also replacing the "Izzy brake" with the FSC556 unit. The upper already has a tritium front post.

I hoping that these changes will get my "KISS carbine" into at least the 90% plus ready-to-go category. If you have any other suggestions, please let me know!

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/M4-2.jpg

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/M4-3.jpg

My other rifle is a Krebs Custom AK-103k. While not quite as accurate as the AR, it's reliability is without question. It is currently my "go to" rifle;

http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ak103k-4.jpg

John Hwang
14 October 2007, 10:10
What's the deal? Only professional photographers allowed here or something? Those are some amazing pictures by everybody.

BTW, Cannonshooter - How do you like your Sully Stock. I was thinking about adding them to our lineup.

Canonshooter
14 October 2007, 10:19
BTW, Cannonshooter - How do you like your Sully Stock. I was thinking about adding them to our lineup.

For those in AWB states like me, I think they are a good option - solid and comfortable to use, especially if you are looking to keep a rifle as compact as possible. My main gripe with the Sully is weight - the stock alone without receiver extension/spring/buffer weighs 18 ounces.

I am starting a new job in a few weeks in northern MA and I will be renting an apartment in NH. I am picking up a small safe to bolt into a closet and taking my BM M4gery with me. Once I'm there, the de-Klintonizing will begin and I am planning on getting the CTR stock kit with milspec tube to replace the Sully. I guess I should order some PMags too!

PS - I agree on the photos!

d.hodgee
18 January 2008, 15:26
did I mention that I love this damn gun?!?!


Alright, This is my go to gun in the pic. The gun is an LMT with no mods done to the inside. I've added a CTR stock, LMT rear BUIS, EOTECH 551, DD 7.0 lite rail, Tango down VFG, MIAD grip, surefire 6P with Tacstar barrel mount and pressure switch, A DD rail sling mount and a Viking tactics sling. I didn't add any of these parts for the cool factor. I simply wanted to build the most reliable AR I could within my budget.

I've shot about 5000 trouble free rounds through it and I am real comfortable with this setup but I'd like to hear what items on my gun you guys would remove or change and what you would add if anything. Would my setup be considered overkill? I'm always willing to try something new. Thanks


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/USMC/AR15/LMTb.jpg

Nova
13 February 2008, 11:38
Along the lines of what TS was saying... I think that a lot of manufacturers are using cheaper parts these days in order to lower the cost of their rifles so that they can increase sales. The AR user base is growing rapidly, and frankly is pretty cheap. I see thread after thread on forums across the web about how stuff is too expensive... and at the same time many complaints about parts failures (a lot of which is cheap ammo related) because they cheaped out and bought the lowest common denominator instead of the better quality parts that would've lasted many years.

There are some really great values out there, but for some things only the best parts will do... and they are going to cost a little more.

But I guess if all you're doing is posting pretty pictures on forums and not shooting much, who cares right? :P (BTW, I'm thinking of something else.. not you guys.)

TalonArms_R
11 March 2008, 21:08
I did a little question asking from a few vendors selling AR parts example bolts&carriers I asked about types of materials the heat treating treatments and shoot peening. Types of inspection and proof firing done.

I also asked why the bolts&carriers were not marked with the Mfg. names.

I got very few real good solid answers, it seems it's just a deep dark seceret about such matters.

Many just replied we buy or Mfg. to Mil Spec.


riverrider,
the reason you got the answers you did is that most commercial BCG are coming from the same place. (CMT) They have started marking bolts this year, but not carriers.

The other thing you have to remember is that firearm companies are not building rifles for us, they are building them for the thousands of guys who are going to put 500 rounds through a rifle in a lifetime, not a day. [:D]

If you care about MP, proof, or inspection marks, don't even bother calling any mainstream commercial manufacturer.

And if you are not shooting over 5,000 rounds a year, you are worried over nothing anyway.

TalonArms_R
11 March 2008, 21:24
USMC,

Great looking rifle. Along with the zip ties, add a piece of bicycle tire inner tube to your grip to cover up your remote switch. Those things tend to pop out at the worst times. [BD]