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Mike
4 December 2009, 03:47
As this product isn't on the companys website yet and I haven't seen anything about it on US websites, I'd like to introduce the KPOS pistol-stock that will be offered by FAB-Defense soon.

I am aware of the legalities in the US adding stocks to pistols (basically making registering as a SBR with tax stamp necessary if I'm not mistaken).

But as the Hera Stock is already swapping over to you, this is probably also interesting. I just handled this stock and only fired a couple of Simmunition rounds for now, but I am looking forward to do a more indepth test for our publication soon.

What I can give are a couple of teaser-pics of this setup taken on the Milipol in Paris a few weeks ago, where this stock was first publicly shown:


http://www.sfg-gear.com/milipol/KISOM_KPOS_G17_19_01.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/milipol/KISOM_KPOS_G17_19_02.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/milipol/KISOM_KPOS_G17_19_03.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/milipol/KISOM_KPOS_G17_19_04.jpg


For now a version for both Glock 17 and Glock 19 and a version for the SIG 2022 (a variant of the SigPro) is in the pipeline, with more to come, most probably. I think they choose to build one for the SIG 2022 first as this pistol was introduced to french law enforcement agencis with a quite astonishing number of 250,000 units...

http://www.sfg-gear.com/milipol/KISOM_KPOS_P2022_01.jpg


For the Glock there is one minor modification that is needed to fix the charging handle to the gun (replacing the rear plate) which still makes is possible to use most holster types out there. I will be able to say more after our testing.

The conversion between pistol and carbine configuration should be pretty fast, here I am also looking forward to testing.

Mike
31 January 2010, 08:35
Haven't seen many photos of this from Shot, but it has been shown there, also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8biyoZs18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1Cnsj2sdpM

I have my example incoming, looking forward to put it through it's paces... [pop]

Army Chief
31 January 2010, 10:02
American laws do put such a weapon into what often seems like a needlessly-restrictive category, but the concept would seem to hold some promise for certain applications.

Of course, I'm every bit as interested in Kommando magazine as I am in the KPOS itself. Keep these cross-Continental insghts coming!

AC

Jerry R
31 January 2010, 12:21
Nicely done Mike - and very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

UDT
31 January 2010, 14:10
Thanks, for sharing, interesting.

Mike
7 February 2010, 12:49
Just some low-quality pics from the first testing session. We ran just around 350 rounds through the little beast but everybody who shot it was instantly hooked. [:D]

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_01.jpghttp://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_02.jpghttp://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_03.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_04.jpghttp://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_05.jpghttp://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_06.jpg

Venom
8 February 2010, 04:02
can't wait to shoot it without a "C"...

Mike
17 February 2010, 16:04
First and second impressions after running in excess of 1,000 rounds through it yesterday:

- very manageable recoil with uncompensated barrel
- almost negligible recoil with compensated barrel
- very... accentuated muzzle pressure (muzzle is closer to the face compared to shooting a pistol, so this was to be expected)
- height of sight over bore allows for impact within 3" of point-of-aim up to about 130 meters
- I was able to constantly hit US Army-issue 3D pop-up targets at 100 meters
- even the sceptics that had the chance to shoot it yesterday admitted that this little thing is more than they expected
- shooting singlehandedly is possible if needed, but it get's difficult to quickly pick up the dot of the T1 because of the relatively small aperture. There an EOTech comes in handy


Only noticeable drawback so far:

- eats ammo way too fast... [:D]


http://sfg-gear.com/testingear/kpos_1.jpg

http://sfg-gear.com/testingear/kpos_2.jpg

http://sfg-gear.com/testingear/kpos_3.jpg



A little more technical detail:

As already said, the only modification to the gun is replacing the factory slide endplate with a special plate accepting the charging handle. Installing the modified pistol in the stock takes about 45-60 seconds, depending on the type of forward grip you choose to use (QD or screw-on e.g.).
We opted to go with a Tango Down QD stubby yesterday while using a TDI SVG so far.
A Magpul MS2 was used as a single point sling. This allows for hands free carry if needed. This sling also facilitates switching to the left shoulder.
Sight used was a Aimpoint Micro T1 on a LT660 Larue Mount, this feels natural in this setup. Also used when applicable was an EOTech 3x magnifier in a Larue LT670-EO. I mounted the magnifier "the wrong way", thus allowing for a better eye relieve with the provided rear rail, this also results in having to push the magnifier forward to flip it. I like it this way.

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_08.jpg

To be able to release magazines without loosing a good shooting grip on the gun I installed a factory extended magazine release. If planning to use the pistol in a holster alternately, make sure that the holster works with the extended release button.

Because of the blast being channeled within the forward portion of the stock one should probably consider to protect the white dot of the front sight using a small strip of duct tape or so. Otherwise the dot may get dirty and requires proper cleaning. The forward portion of the gun gets pretty dirty but the residues can be easily wiped off.


http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_09.jpg

Eins_Fox
17 February 2010, 17:03
I can totally agree with what Mike said. Even for someone like me who totally sucks at shooting a pistol it was easy to get some nice impact groups on the targets, even if used without the stock - just drive it as far forward as the sling allows and once you get the red dot in sight you're done, thanks to the stability provided by either sling and vertical grip.

My personal conclusion after shooting aprox 200 rounds: I'm beginning to like shooting "pistols". ;)

CCK
22 February 2010, 13:10
Very interesting. Please continue with anymore observations you have with more shooting.

Do you think the company plans a large frame version? I think this added to a G20 would be ideal.

Chris

Mike
22 February 2010, 21:33
I've been told that they actually plan to make a .45-frame version of the stock that should be able to accept all large frames. It may take a while but it is in the works.

Three weeks from now is the IWA fair, Germanys and Europes biggest arms and equipment industry fair. I assume that we will learn more about the time table then.

CCK
7 March 2010, 17:01
Mike,
Just had a thought about this today. A guy was at the local gun store while I was there and had the HERA system and I immediately thought about this system as well:
WHen you have it slung, or in a general carry position, in what condition do you keep the weapon?

I carry a g19 everyday so carrying with a round in chamber doesn't bother me with my gun in a holster but looking at pictures there is nothing protecting the trigger, that freaks me out a little. We don't do that with ARs.

So I was thinking of the Raven Concealment Vanguard style holster.
http://www.themalabarfront.com/product_info.php?cPath=82_97_119&products_id=1617

or obviously carried in an empty chamber condition.

Thoughts? Thanks,

Chris

Mike
8 March 2010, 08:13
I haven't used it in earnest so far but I'd carry it in Condition 3 - it's easy to charge using the cocking handle that is attached to the backplate of the glock slide.

I now have a tad over 1000 rounds through it and getting it into action from Condition 3 is fast. This vanguard thingy is interesting though, I'll try to lay my hands on one, just to try it out.

CCK
8 March 2010, 11:45
Suarez tactical also sells a similar kydex trigger guard.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/zackconcealmentholster.aspx

Im thinking, tied down to a side belt loop would still allow you to keep the gun tucked under your arm.

Chris

Mike
8 March 2010, 11:59
That was pretty much what I also thought.
Tie this trigger holster to a length of paracord fixed to the pants on the side you'll carry the rig and when raising the gun you "unholster" it automatically.



By the way, I just collected my CAA T&E RONI G1 stock from customs and just opened the box.
Here they introduced a "trigger safety" basically just covering both sides of the trigger. They didn't have that safety on the then-latest version they showed in november in Paris. Somebody there had the same thoughts...

Mike
8 March 2010, 14:19
Too dark for the camera to make acceptable pics, so at least here are some videos of the CAA solution.

Compared to the FAB it feels kinda huge and more


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZKTAoV0nJ4


http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=SpNA-TZnMC4

federalist22
8 March 2010, 18:15
holy crap!

Optimus Prime
8 March 2010, 18:24
I can't help but look at the name and compare it to selling a Chevy Nova in Mexico. I mean, it's a good idea, and I'm sure it functions fine, but KPOS kinda makes me giggle.

Mike
10 March 2010, 09:02
I mean, it's a good idea, and I'm sure it functions fine, but KPOS kinda makes me giggle.


I kinda' hoped nobody would notice.

This was one of my first thoughts when I saw this the first time... [:D]


Well, daylight, better camera, still the same crappy camera operator, but at least a bit better pics:

[B]CAA Tactical RONI G1

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_RONI_G1_01.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_RONI_G1_02.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_RONI_G1_03.jpg

compared to...

FAB Defense KPOS 17/19

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_10.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_11.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/WEVO_KPOS_12.jpg

nitteo
28 April 2010, 07:27
Gen4 Glock 17 wth KPOS!

I had an Eotech XPS2 that I borrowed from my AR15 on it in the range, it was too heavy for my liking. Plus, mounting the XPS in the middle (for balance) I found my cheek was making contact with the KPOS trying to sight in after reloads. I guess this could be remedied with a home made cheek riser on the folding stock. This is the same folding stock for a mini-uzi so there might be an accessory out there.

I took this Tru-Glo from my Remington 870, to be lighter AND be able to place my face further from the KPOS back-end, while maintaining good balance.

This current setup is perfect for single handed shooting, thru the red dot ( if needed).

Recoil was negligible and shoot placement was improved (of course) up to 25 yrds of my indoor range. I will be taking it out to an outdoor range and see how it does on 50-75 yards (compared to my other gen4 G17).

The only thing I did not like is that it shipped with this residue all over the KPOS.

Overall a great PDW, ALOT lighter than my UZI, and with the advantages of same capacity with the banana sticks and compatible magazines of my Secondary Pistol.

Eins_Fox
12 June 2010, 14:05
Thought I might throw in some footage of the KPOS in action.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcAj_i00lYI


//Btw, is it possible to get his nickname changed? :)

wargunn
4 August 2010, 08:16
As this is my first post, I´ll try to keep it short.
Does anybody know if it´s possible to use a Glock 17L with the KPOS???....I´m in the process of selling a Glock 24 and a Glock 21 to buy a new Glock in 9mm so i´ll be able to use 33rd magazines, so i´m stuck with the glock 34 or the glock 17L , I want the largest barrel I can get because here in Argentina it´s very difficult to get extended barrels.

Thanks!

Mike
5 August 2010, 11:46
Does anybody know if it´s possible to use a Glock 17L with the KPOS??



According to the manufaturers website it should be possible:

http://www.fab-defense.com/en/category-parts-and-upgrades/id-206/pistol-to-pdw-convesrsion-glock-and-sig-sauer-models-.html


Fits Glock 17/17L/19/22/23/34/35

Probably it is necessary to remove the front tube of the stock to accomodate the longer barrel and slide assembly.
This part can simply be taken off via some screws - originallly this was intended to be able to use silencers.


And while I'm at it - here are two pictures from a testing session we did a while ago.
For evaluating precision we mounted the KPOS on a Snipod that in turn is mounted on a Manfrotto Tripod:


http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/KISOM_range_KPOS_SNIPOD_01.jpg

http://www.sfg-gear.com/testingear/KISOM_range_KPOS_SNIPOD_02.jpg

Mike
6 August 2010, 00:51
H.E.R.A. is working on another stock - other than their current version this one doesn't need the host gun to be (semi)permanently modified:

http://www.hera-arms.de/triarii.php

I'm trying to get my hands on one when they are finished.

Mike
6 August 2010, 00:55
http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8454.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8459.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8474.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8447.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8443.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/articles/triarii/IMG_8444.jpg

Not sure if they are too large for convenient viewing. If so - let me know and I'll scale them down.

Gurkenstein
14 August 2010, 10:15
The KPOS is an awesome configuration. I would like to try with Glock 17 with G17L barrel. The G17L is the longest barrel I can find for the G17. Does anyone know of any longer?

Mike
14 August 2010, 18:11
The longest barrel I can think of for a Glock would be a "carbine barrel" by IGB in Austria.

http://www.igbaustria.com/index_files/Page752.htm (their website is a bit messed up when viewed with Firefox, though).
Old version is still online: http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/08-karabinersystem.htm

For longer barrel versions they use a special "Impulse System" (a bit like the recoil booster on a MG3) to ensure cycling.

http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0019_image100-1.jpg

http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0019_image100-2.jpg

http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0019_image100-3.jpg

This way, even 16"-barrels are possible:

http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/karabinerlaufohnesystem-1aa.gif

Mike
14 August 2010, 18:17
http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0008_image027a.jpg

http://www.igbaustria.com/index_files/image9181.jpg


http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0008_image029.jpg
G21 7,5" barrel in 10 mm Auto


http://www.impulsegunbarrels.com/onlinekatalog-nov03/images/slide0026_image078a.jpg
G17 7,5" barrel

Gurkenstein
14 August 2010, 21:07
Thanks for the information. Did you get the 7.5 inch from that same company. I notice that Lone Wolf sells a G17L threaded which I was told was 7.5 inches. These in the picture are not threaded...

Gurkenstein
14 August 2010, 21:21
I see them. Very pricey....$322 US for 12" ...$250 for 7.5" ouch...

Mike
9 January 2011, 15:23
H.E.R.A. is working on another stock - other than their current version this one doesn't need the host gun to be (semi)permanently modified:

http://www.hera-arms.de/triarii.php

I'm trying to get my hands on one when they are finished.


New pictures available:

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3086/img8927ent.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/IMG_8927ent.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/IMG_8961ent.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/IMG_8962ent.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/IMG_8928ent.jpg

http://www.hera-arms.de/images/IMG_8945ent.jpg

Also note extended SigPro Magazine...

Still no examples to test, though... [BD]


...when I should get an opportunity, I'll start another thread.

crosse
8 May 2012, 10:07
thought it would be best to revive this old thread incase any of the original posters had information on it.

Does a muzzle device have to be attached to the barrel directly or if perm mounting to the receiver in conjunction with the barrel works? I have read that the method they use is a dowel down the muzzle to the breechface or to the bolt. does anyone know how the ATF would still define the KPOS, RONI, or HERA as a SBR if a ~12" attachment was made to the front of the kit? I know CAA is making the Roni CG1 but no information yet about how the design is exactly allowing them to skirt the 16" barrel length requirement for non-NFA items.

CCK
9 May 2012, 10:52
thought it would be best to revive this old thread incase any of the original posters had information on it.

Does a muzzle device have to be attached to the barrel directly or if perm mounting to the receiver in conjunction with the barrel works? I have read that the method they use is a dowel down the muzzle to the breechface or to the bolt. does anyone know how the ATF would still define the KPOS, RONI, or HERA as a SBR if a ~12" attachment was made to the front of the kit? I know CAA is making the Roni CG1 but no information yet about how the design is exactly allowing them to skirt the 16" barrel length requirement for non-NFA items.


Who is skirting anything?

crosse
9 May 2012, 11:17
Who is skirting anything?

i'm not aware of any company that has produced a design that the barrel shroud that wasn't directly attached to the barrel could be a non-nfa item. I'm still waiting to hear back from CAA on how their design works.

CCK
9 May 2012, 11:21
i'm not aware of any company that has produced a design that the barrel shroud that wasn't directly attached to the barrel could be a non-nfa item. I'm still waiting to hear back from CAA on how their design works.

Why are you under the impression that these are non nfa items?

crosse
9 May 2012, 12:09
nvm. after a quick couple emails with the Roni guys, I've found out they intended to completely replace the glock barrel for a factory grade 16" barrel, which will be interesting to see.

jhjfdf
9 May 2012, 12:10
I personally owned all 3 Glock Kits...RONI, KPOS and the TRIARII

The Roni was my first one and it was something new and i just wanted it...it was fun to shoot but it always felt "cheap", because of the plastic. Also the Stock was too short for me so it wasnt very comfortable to shoot.
The second was the KPOS...really small and compact but i didnt like that i have to add the charging handle...also it was a little bit "shaky".
The third was the Triarii...a solid piece of metal, very easy to install, and i can add a lot of AR stuff to it...definitly my favorite.

I will make some pictures of the Triarii in about 2 weeks.