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View Full Version : HELP! AR-Build from scratch. Need Suggestions/Thoughts on all Parts selected~



4SRecon
9 December 2009, 18:15
I'm new to WE but I observed that most members are experienced vet's in AR builds/Parts. I'm looking to start the new year with a completely new AR build. I thought of a build consisting of about 15 parts or so to start the initial build. I have no hands on experience with any of these parts with the exception of the optics and gas block. I map'd out the build from Ranier Arms, after purchsing many different parts from a previous build with the best customer support I could imagine except for the Spike's Lower and Aimpoint T-1 / LT mount combo. I would appreciate any feed back on the parts I did/n't list or possible options if possible... Thanks-





1. Spike's Tactical Complete Magpul Edition Lower- 440.00
(wanted the magpul lower or Noveske lower. *complete*)

2. WOA 13.7 Stainless Steel Match Grade Barrel- 295.00
(Does Noveske make these barrels? or the other way around??)

3. VLTOR MUR (Modular Upper Receiver) w/Forward Assist- 229.95

4. VLTOR Gas Block (Black)- 49.95

5. DD 12.0 M4 FF Handguard- 332.00

6. Noveske KX3 Flash Suppressor- 125.00
OR
PWS FSC55- 95.00

7. MI SPLP BUIS- 119.95

8. MI Folding Front Sight- 79.95

9. KNS Takedown pins- 22.00

10. AImpoint T-1 W/ LT Tall Mount Combo- 587.00

11. Pin/Weld Smith Service- 39.95

12. Gas Block Pin Service- 29.95

Paulo_Santos
9 December 2009, 19:24
That is very nice list of parts. The WOA barrel is either a Wilson or Shilan. Very good barrels.
With the 13.7" barrel, I'd get the KX3 instead of the FSC556. Also check out the Troy 12" MRX Standard Handguards.

4SRecon
9 December 2009, 19:49
Thanks for the feedback Paulosantos-

I checked the Troy Industry Handguards out.. They look good, and have a great reputation for durability. I was also wondering if you were fimiliar in th Noveske Switchblock... and is it primarily used for suppressors only? would that be idea for this setup?

I'm also looking to go for a tucked flash hider look.. my plan is to pin/weld a flash suppressor on the barrel, so i can use a shorter length barrel. 13.7"/KX3 or even 12.5"/AAC SPR/M4 ?? im not even sure if that combo makes the legal length without going SBR...

any info would help!

Thanks

Paulo_Santos
9 December 2009, 21:07
The switchblock was designed for the suppressor use, but you don't need a suppressor to use it. If you want to go with the switchblock, I'd geta Noveske upper that is already set up with one as you will need one of their handguards for the switchblock for the look that you like.

4SRecon
9 December 2009, 22:03
Thanks for the help- I appreciate the time..


-Dan

rob_s
10 December 2009, 06:27
Yes, that sounds like a very nice (expensive) list of parts. However I have to admit that it sounds to me like the end result should be called "Sybil" for all of it's different personalities.

There are a lot of people that build guns just to build/have them, and that's ok. It's not my thing, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong.

What's missing from your post is your background of what other ARs you have, what your experience is with the platform, what kinds of training you've had, etc. The other thing that is missing is the critical element of what you want the gun to do, or what you want to do with it, when you're done.

Without that information it's tough for anyone to give any feedback other then "yep, that looks like an expensive pile of parts". Unless this is a build-to-build or a build-to-have in which case it doesn't really matter if it's Sybil.

4SRecon
10 December 2009, 08:01
Yes, that sounds like a very nice (expensive) list of parts. However I have to admit that it sounds to me like the end result should be called "Sybil" for all of it's different personalities.

There are a lot of people that build guns just to build/have them, and that's ok. It's not my thing, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong.

What's missing from your post is your background of what other ARs you have, what your experience is with the platform, what kinds of training you've had, etc. The other thing that is missing is the critical element of what you want the gun to do, or what you want to do with it, when you're done.

Without that information it's tough for anyone to give any feedback other then "yep, that looks like an expensive pile of parts". Unless this is a build-to-build or a build-to-have in which case it doesn't really matter if it's Sybil.


Well, I'm 23 years old, I don't have too much experience with building an AR. I've learned how to shoot from my Father, Brother, and two Cousins (bro & cuz's-active overseas, Father-retired Marine's). A combination of what they have taught me is what I know. I own 3 AR's right now, two of them (Bushy XME2S and a Colt Sporter pre-ban) are still in there original form with the exception of an optics upgrade.. The third was the first AR that I bought at the age of 21. It's a Smith & Wesson M&P15 ORC. It came with a pinned stock, flat top receiver, plastic M4 handguard, and a gas block with a 1913 rail on it. No BUIS or nothing. It reminded me of a featherless chicken.

I added a few parts that I thought were "Cool" I guess and that I knew were durable enough to have a 21 year old kid dump massive ammounts of rounds in the backyard without having the gun breakdown/malfunction. Here is what I dressed the M&P15 with:

VLTOR CASV-M Handguard with foldable front site
VLTOR Low Pro Gas Block
ACE LTD Skeleton Carbine Stock
Young MFG Nickel Plated BCG
Tango Down Battle Grip/Stubby VFG
Magpul PMAG/XTM rail covers
MI BUIS (Rear)
Optics: ACOG TA01 and AIMPOINT CompM4

This was the first AR I spent most of my paychecks on and felt satisfied with after completeing it. It shoots great and I Love it. I used it for plinking in the and some target practice in the back yard..

This build I'm planning now isn't even for me. I'm planning on giving it to my brother after he comes back from his (5th) deployment with 3/4 India Co. stationed in Afghanistan. Before he deployed, we were talking guns and what not and I remembered him speaking about a build with "Top Quality" parts that would be "way out of his price range". His Birthday was on December 3rd, so we didn't get to see him. I want him to come home to the build he wished for. Realistically, I'm not even going to use the gun. I can only stress the point that I'm willing to spend the money in order to show the appreciation I have for his efforts to protect me, our family and more importantly, this beautiful country.

I guess in terms of my background, it wouldn't be relevant. But I know he likes a "Badass" weapon that is "Reliable" and is "New".

With that said, maybe you can suggest something of that nature, Rob. I mean, me n my bro vaguely discussed the parts I listed in order for me to keep an "element of suprise" for when he actually gets ahold of the rifle.. I mainly think he's going to use it as a "Show" piece or a rifle that is "Flashy" since the rifle's he already owns aren't exactly considered "Mod'd Out"..

Thanks for the time out

rob_s
10 December 2009, 08:30
That clarification helps tremendously, and please thank your family for their service.

There is using all "top quality parts" and there is buying with a purpose.

I see that you're in New York, but based on your list it sounds like this is for someone outside that state's restrictions so I'm going to base my suggestions on that assumption.

First off, I would stick with a 16" barrel. That preserves the modularity of the platform in that rails, muzzle devices, front sights/gas block, etc. can all be changed more easily as new products come online or tastes change. Given a 16" barrel I would skip the KX3 from Noveske (something meant for <12.5" barrels to begin with) and stay with something like a Blackout flash hider from Advanced Armament.

On the subject of the barrel, while stainless is certainly fine, I would be looking much harder at a cold hammer forged, 4150 or better carbon steel, chrome-lined barrel with a mid-length gas system. Stainless is a better choice when long range, gnat's ass accuracy is a requirement, but if you're not going to feed the gun the kind of ammo necessary to get that level of accuracy, or put an optic on it that will allow the shooter to achieve that level of accuracy, then I would choose the longer service life and more forgiving cleaning and maintenance schedule of a CHF barrel. Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, and Knight's are all using CHF barrels.

On the subject of rails, the DD Lite is probably a better choice than the DD M4 depending on a few variables.

This upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl9.htm) would be a great option with the CHF barrel and DD lite 9.0, or this upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-BFH-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20ddl12.htm) if you prefer the 12.0 rail. Personally I like keeping the FSB, but understand that the trend of late is towards the longer rails.

If you're after that gnat's ass accuracy and are willing to go a different route with the optics to take advantage of it, BCM also does stainless barrels with rails already installed or without, and you can find them here (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm) along with their CHF ("BFH" they call them) and standard barrels.

I am also of the opinion that the MUR is an unnecessary added cost, and would prefer to spend the money on a better quality BUIS than the MI, something like the Troy.

Another choice would be a Noveske complete upper, with their rails or without and with rails of your choosing installed after the fact. Either their chrome-lined if you're going the Aimpoint route or stainless if you're looking for that magnified-optics appropriate accuracy.

The biggest contradiction I see in your original list is the optic with the barrel. if you're going to shoot top-shelf ammo with a magnified optic then I'd go with stainless, and if you're going with an Aimpoint and standard ammo (or even Wolf, don't laugh I shoot the hell out of Wolf) I would go with one of the cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels.

Also, don't get sucked in to "more expensive is better". Things like billet uppers and lowers cost more but offer virtually NO quantifiable benefit other than "looking cool" (which is subjective, I happen to think they look like shit) and bragging rights that they cost more and are therefore somehow better. Point of fact they are bulky because they are weaker.

Do your research, keep in mind that the whole thing is a system and the parts should compliment each other, and you should do fine.

4SRecon
10 December 2009, 11:47
Rob, thank you alot for the time and effort you put into helping me narrow down parts for this build. Your opinion is greatly appreciated. I'm currently looking into the peices you mentioned, and will take the advice into consideration when I purchase the build.

Once again, Thanks for the support!

-Dan

JustMatt
13 December 2009, 11:17
4SRecon,

I was in your shoes early last summer when I started putting the parts together for my first "no expense spared" build. I can tell you that the MUR upper is a great choice, I used it in my build and would recomend it. You might look into using their VIS monolithic upper railed fore-end. Rainier arms has a upper that they recently came out with and it supposedly has exceptional tolerances on the machining. You also might consider going with a piston system instead of the legacy DI gas system. I don't want to start a piston vs. DI argument but I have yet to have either of my 2 piston AR's have a malfunction (one I built using Adams Arms piston system and the other a LWRC M6A2). It would def make your brothers gun different. I would put more money into actual gun parts and let your brother decide on optics. I think the optics would be more of a personal opinion type purchase than the actual gun parts. As for muzzle breaks, look at PWS FSC556 or Rainiers Extreme break http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1684 .

rob_s
14 December 2009, 04:52
4SRecon,
I would put more money into actual gun parts and let your brother decide on optics. I think the optics would be more of a personal opinion type purchase than the actual gun parts.

I could not disagree more. While it may be applicable to let him decide something like Eotech vs. Aimpoint, or Nightforces vs. Schmidt & Bender, the optic chosen is part of the overall system and the choice is a result of fleshing out the mission of the firearm and the available budget, just like every other part on the gun.

Outside of building safe-stuffers, internet-picture-models, or Saturday-at-the-public-range guns, figuring out what the tool (gun) is going to be used for is the first thing that anyone should establish when building or buying a gun.

Case in point, I have seen posts on other forums where a guy will post "I want to get an AR15 for varmint hunting and long-range shooting", at which point 17.5 nitwits will jump in with links to the chart telling the guy to get a Colt 6920. [BD] Ummmm, no.

The reverse happens as well where someone asks about a rifle for home defense and training classes and someone sends him to the JP website. [crazy]

"Mission drives the gear trains", and whatever your use is, that's the "mission". Determining that first makes the decisions about other products almost frighteningly simple, and optic choice is part of that, and goes hand-in-hand with barrel choice.

JustMatt
14 December 2009, 08:41
The reasoning behind me saying to put more money/effort into the gun and not the optics is because with a short barrel the gun would most likely be utilized as a home defense/fun gun. With iron sights already a part of the equation I don't see the need to drop $500+ on a optic unless that is for certain what he wants. Hell, I would even say got with MagPul MBUS instead of MI and save some money. There are lots of tacticool/CDI stuff out there that serve no purpose, but from what I gleamed of from your first post was that this was to be a "welcome home" gift to your brother and you wanted it to be bomb proof and "top shelf". I would say just buy him a Noveske or DD gun, but I beleive you wanted some uniqueness to the gun as well. That was my reasoning for placing the optic on the back burner. Either way you go it sounds like you got a good rifle started. Your brother will be very satisfied. Thank him for his service and thank you and your family for supporting him.

4SRecon
14 December 2009, 11:24
from what I gleamed of from your first post was that this was to be a "welcome home" gift to your brother and you wanted it to be bomb proof and "top shelf". I would say just buy him a Noveske or DD gun, but I beleive you wanted some uniqueness to the gun as well. That was my reasoning for placing the optic on the back burner. Either way you go it sounds like you got a good rifle started. Your brother will be very satisfied. Thank him for his service and thank you and your family for supporting him.

Thanks, I get where you're coming from Matt. I want to give my bro a warm welcome home and with the help that you guys are giving me, that's exactly what it'll be. I appreciate the time You, Rob, and Paul took out to view my post and voice your opinions. I will relay the message of gratitude and duty of my bro's service to him in his next care package! [:)]

Thank you guys alot- I'll take all comments/suggestions into consideration when building this fine piece of weaponry. I've already started the process and will keep you updated on the steps needed to complete this "Welcome Home" project!! [:D]

JustMatt
14 December 2009, 11:46
your welcome and don't forget to post some pics.

4SRecon
14 December 2009, 19:37
Well, I cant wait to post some pick as the build goes on... Let alone see my brothers face when he shoots it! I know it wont be as good as stick's pics that he posts- but i'll try my best....

chase102798
16 December 2009, 14:18
I was wondering from reading your post if your brother has a good knowledge of the dizzying array of parts and options on the market? If not, maybe he won't care. If he does, have you considered just ordering the basic parts (like a 16" barrel, I agree with Rob about the length, lower, LPK, and maybe some other essential function components) and then mapping out the build together? Could be a fun brother/brother project.

No offense to everyone, but I just wouldn't want someone else putting together my rifle. I think the difference in opinions just on this site should tell you that not every two people's "perfect" is alike. Maybe you put together this amazing rifle and your brother agrees with Rob that Vltor uppers are ugly. I'm a billet upper/lower guy and I have just never found them to be lacking. But some guys really don't like them and that's OK too. Maybe he shoots the rifle and you put a 12" rail on it, a tac light, forward grip, back up irons, maybe some rail covers and he thinks the gun is way too front heavy. Maybe you put a 9" rail on it and he would have really liked a 12" for a long sight radius. Maybe...maybe...

I just think that if you are going to honor your brother it should be with a rifle that reflects his tastes and opinions. If it was me, the fact that you took this initiative would be what was important to me. I just don't think you are going to create his ultimate weapon with input from others. I think it needs to come from the source. Since he is active duty, he might even have some strong opinions.

4SRecon
16 December 2009, 16:05
That's a very good point, Chase I hadn't given that point of view much thought at all. I mean building the rifle WITH him would most definately be ideal, but there are alot of factors that tie into a joint project. Jon (my brother) is Active Duty, so his time is pretty much limited in between deployments. He's got PT every weekend (sometimes I join in when invited) and he works full time during the week (so do I). We don't live together, he's got a wife and 2 kids (one on the way) so spare time doesnt exactly come that often (***probably should have mentoned that earlier***)... I've consdered stop loss aswell, which brought me to my decision to purchase parts, and assemble them myself for him (which keeps my mind off of his 5th deployment, and possibly another) or purchase them and make sure a certified gunsmith gets his rifle in working condition by the time the Marines bring him back home.

I know certain components of this weapon can purely be chosen off of preference for which option you like, or how you would like your rifle to look/feel/shoot, and the opinions of others wont do justice for his taste and liking. But I also understand that I dont want to assemble or buy parts to something that I feel shouldn't be given to him that are out dated, or simply because they're over rated and pieces of crap. I mean, I wish I was better prepared for this build, but its sort of a suprise you know? From the suggestions and honest thoughts displayed by people like you, Chase, I will have a better assessment of how this build will be conducted and take the necessary steps needed to complete this rifle.

My brother is extremely humble, so basically I can hand him a zip gun made out of a spring, pvc, wood, and zip-ties and he's tell me he loves it.[:D] I want to make him shit his pants when he gets home [wow] Purely to make his day, and show him gratitude.

chase102798
16 December 2009, 20:40
That is a very understandable situation. I think what you are doing for him is wonderful. I just finished a really special 6.5 grendel rifle for my brother in law who he and my sister are expecting the first grandchild girl in the family on January 24th. I gutted and remodeled my sister's master bath for her and I'm building the gun for him (real cool custom camo finish). I think that people show their appeciation in the ways that fit their gifts. Those are mine.

Since he is active duty I'm sure he is very intimate with the basic utilitarian combat rifle, so if it were me I would stay away from a set-up like that. It's like handing a carpenter a claw hammer and saying "here's something really special!" He sees it all the time. Give him something he only dreams about "at work" :) Let's face it, you said his down time is limited and he has a wife and two kids at home to spend time with when he is stateside. So realistically he probably isn't going to be burning rounds training daily with this rifle. It will be something that he will show off at barbeques and pulls out to the range when his brother calls to spend a saturday afternoon.

Having said that, I personally would go with an ultra accurate stainless barrel. I have barrels from shilen, WOA, and BCM and they are silly accurate and have handled thousands of rounds with no apologies. Special guns deserve great barrels. It's not tabu to have different optics for a gun either. You can have an aimpoint AND a long range scope. If there was some sort of black magic to it Larue, Bobro, and ADM wouldn't have the lucrative businesses they do.

If you are looking for something to really "show off" you might want to look into getting a matched upper and lower from the same manufacturer. This would ensure you get a nice finish that matches. There can be alot of different shades of black when you start mixing and matching. Here's another thought. I have some friends who also serve in the armed forces and built some guns for them upon return. I allowed them to pick every part from as many options as I could find. Each one of them (3) chose a Young Manufacturing NM chrome bolt carrier because they HATED (as emphasized by said friends) cleaning bolt carriers and they wanted something they could disassemble and clean faster. (JP makes a nice burnished SS black one too: http://www.jprifles.com/1.4.7_bc.php )

This was my pre-wedding present to myself couple years ago (since been revised and updated). Something special for the last days of bachelorhood.

http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae177/chase102798/DSC00818.jpg

If all else fails, go to this talented man's site and gaze at some pictures.

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/

Find something you fall in love with and post it back here. I'm sure the guys on this site (or the photographer) could reverse engineer it for you. If you can't find something close in those pictures you should just go for the red ryder BB gun or the fishnet leg lamp. ;)

4SRecon
18 December 2009, 09:05
Thanks for the advice! I definately have to find something different from the average rifle he eats/sh*ts/sleeps with.. That's one hell of a blaster right there Chase~ looks like alot of fun! I'll be sure to check Stick's pics to help map out some exotic setups. That Man has some of the most beautiful weaponry I've ever had the oppourtunity to lay my eyes on! I plan on passing on the same effect, hopefully this project stacks up.

Thanks guys

4SRecon
10 February 2010, 19:11
Ok, finally I'm able to post the progress on "operation: appreciation"... I finally got the upper, the lower, the barrel and all other essential parts to the AR and put them together.. I'm still missing a few parts, but at least it's operational and fully functional.

Part list:

VLTOR MUR VIS-3
Noveske N-4 (stripped)
Magpul MIAD
WOA 13.7 Stainless Steel Match Grade Barrel
VLTOR E-MOD Stock
Noveske KX3
DPMS LPK
Magpul BUIS
BCM/VLTOR Mod3 Gunfighter charging handle
S&W M&P BCG. (switching out for a Young Manufacturing N/M BCG)
Magpul XTM rail panels.
PMAG30 window

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad119/4SRecon/010.jpg

Now all I need is a hardcase (suggestions?? pelican??)..... The optics, sling, and maybe a paint job is what I'll leave up to my brother when he gets state side. I'll just go shop with him to pick up those "Personal preference" options. I think he's going to love this setup- I sure do, and so does my father, and he's an old timer who strictly sticks to a stock AR behind is irons! He thinks all the "gadgets" are considered cheating lol I told him it's 2010, and let him look through my ACOG.

Anyways, I'd like to send a BIG thanks to RanierArms- (best customer cooperation you can get!) and to WeaponEvolution for puting in great input, and all of the staff/members for posting reviews, how to's, and personal experience post's that actually helped me out with this build from scratch. My brother will be proud. So, thank you all.

chem_guy
11 February 2010, 09:06
A very nice looking rifle!

4SRecon
11 February 2010, 10:32
A very nice looking rifle!

Thanks Chem!

Most of the ideas came from my brother, under the impression that it would stay a "dream" but as soon as I joined this forum- it really motivated me to get this project rolling. It's not completely finished, I definately want to get a flashlight... He talked abbout the Surefire Vampire? or something like that.. gotta get that if it's available. He says its perfect for his NVG's- maybe cause the light is LED??? (never heard of a the Surefire Vampire)-

Either way, I know its going to make him crap his MARPAT's! [:D]

federalist22
11 February 2010, 19:39
wish I had a brother who built me a rifle like that.........bad ass!

By any chance does he monitor this forum? If so, kind of ruins the surprise if it was meant to be one, but nevertheless bad ass and it would be difficult to not like. well done.[pop]

SDDuc996
11 February 2010, 21:59
Wish I could see the gun but these damn govt computers block almost every forum pic imagineable.

You picked some great parts, and I'm sure he'll love it.

John Hwang
12 February 2010, 05:56
WOA 13.7 barrels are from Wilson blanks. Barrels cut from Shilen blanks are a lot more money.

4SRecon
12 February 2010, 08:45
WOA 13.7 barrels are from Wilson blanks. Barrels cut from Shilen blanks are a lot more money.

John,

I'm confused....

What exactly is the difference? Is it common for one company to cut barrels from two different blanks? Are they both Match grade? And most importantly, would someone be able to feel/see a difference?

4SRecon
13 February 2010, 09:36
wish I had a brother who built me a rifle like that.........bad ass!

By any chance does he monitor this forum? If so, kind of ruins the surprise if it was meant to be one, but nevertheless bad ass and it would be difficult to not like. well done.[pop]

No, i'm sure he doesn't visit this site. He logs very little computer time. Especially when deployed unfortunately he doesn't get to sit on the computer that much at all... Maybe every once in a while on Facebook, or for AIM so we can chat and the family gets about 15 minutes to share over the internet. Just something we've gotten used to.

Thanks though! I appreciate the comment! I think it's bad ass too!!! (wish it was mine) :P

4SRecon
13 April 2010, 19:55
Finally put the finishing touches on (without a minute to spare). My bro will be home within 1-3 weeks (says the FRO) and i'm excited to give him a warm welcome home. what do you think?



http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad119/4SRecon/vltor.jpg

TehLlama
13 April 2010, 23:25
Awesome that he'll be back.
Even more awesome he's coming back to something anywhere near that awesome.

willardcw4
15 April 2010, 00:03
It came together really really nicely! Nice job man... good lookin solid gun! Ur bro will shit bricks for sure.

4SRecon
15 April 2010, 19:26
Thanks! I completely envy it. He won't be able to enjoy it until we fly back to the east coast for his leave... And unfortunately He won't have much time to enjoy it because he's going back to Twenty-Nine Palms, but I'm sure he'll make time to break it in. Too many deployments, too little time... The man has too much heart.