Opinions and experience - Surefire vs KAC rails

[alt154shiver]

Price aside, how does the Surefire M82 drop in rail system compare to Knight's M5 RAS?

Weight? Zero? Durability?

I've seen the PEQ-2 riding on them a few times, but how well do they really maintain the zero of mounted systems? Is it worth the weight increase to have the rail space? Or are a lot of guys wishing the only change to the A2 had been the flat top?

[Paulo_Santos]

Me personally, if I'm going to add a rail, I'm going to make it a free float rail. I'd rather spend a few more bucks and get a DD Omega Rail if it was on a duty weapon that I couldn't modify or something like the DD Lite or Troy TRX Standard rails if I could modify.

[SDDuc996]

Agreed. At this point there's so many better options that'll free float your rail. KAC is utter garbage and expensive as hell. Shell out a little more and get a good quality FF.
As my buddy always says, Buy once, cry once.

[jeffy]

I agree with the others. For the price $250-350, you can do a lot better then either of those handguards. There is no reason not go to with a free floating hardguard.

The last time I checked, the Surefire top rail wasn't the same height of a flat top receiver. So you won't want to be putting sights or optics on it.

For the price, I would look hard at the Danial Defense Lite or maybe a DD RAS II or a LaRue 12.0. If you can't or don't want to take apart the upper then look at the Omega 12.0.

[Aragorn]

While I STRONGLY disagree that KAC is utter garbage, it is VERY true that they are expensive. If you did want a KAC, I'd check out a URX rail. It's free float, has integral QD sling swivel mounts, and a front sight that folds down linear with the rail. Catch is that we're talking serious money for a URX, and you have to have it installed by a KAC armorer. That said, the R5 you asked about you would be able to install yourself.

I don't know what the surefire weighs, but the R5 comes in at 17 oz.

I won't disagree with everyone else here though in saying that for the money, you would do better with a FF. If it's a drop in you need/desire, check out the DD Omega. It also features integral QD sling swivel mounts with rotation limiters, is more oval shaped (similar to the R5 and M82), and their 12" model comes in at a trim 13.5 oz. In terms of durability, DD is hard to beat.

[SDDuc996]

While I STRONGLY disagree that KAC is utter garbage, it is VERY true that they are expensive. If you did want a KAC, I'd check out a URX rail. It's free float, has integral QD sling swivel mounts, and a front sight that folds down linear with the rail. Catch is that we're talking serious money for a URX, and you have to have it installed by a KAC armorer. That said, the R5 you asked about you would be able to install yourself.

I don't know what the surefire weighs, but the R5 comes in at 17 oz.

I won't disagree with everyone else here though in saying that for the money, you would do better with a FF. If it's a drop in you need/desire, check out the DD Omega. It also features integral QD sling swivel mounts with rotation limiters, is more oval shaped (similar to the R5 and M82), and their 12" model comes in at a trim 13.5 oz. In terms of durability, DD is hard to beat.

I apologize to KAC owners. In my opinion, for the money they charge for their products, it's a total rip-off. Here's a list specifically of what I have had problems with:

-SOPMOD issue KAC rail (currently being replaced by DD thank you God.)
Bottom rail gets loose and rattles, easy to lose dope with Atpial/peq2 with
top rail, nice good muzzle strike and that bottom rail pops right off.
-SOPMOD Issue KAC Vertical foregrip. Gets loose easily. Wobbles on rail.
Locking nipple busts off with good muzzle strike mentioned above.
-SOPMOD issue KAC QD suppressors. Heavy. Brand new out of the box baffle
strikes. (Happened more than once to quite a few "NIB" suppressors.) Did
I mention they were heavy?
-MK11 (These are not issued to me, I just deal with them when they shit the
bed.) Failures to feed full 20rd mags. We were shooting from a mountain top
in Hawthorne NV at a downward angle in high winds. Rifle repeatedly failed
to fire. One of the LCPO's on target, in Iraq. Had a bead on a guy, failure to
fire. Cleared it, failed again. When he RTB'd he (literally) chucked the rifle
and swore he'd never shoot one again. Switched the stock out on his MK12
to an LMT and stuck with that for the rest of his deployment. My buddy
Dallas likes his however.

Their flip up sights are about the only thing I don't hate and use on my guns.

They have some nice innovations to be sure. Just not nice enough to win me over.

Don't get me wrong, if I won an SR15 at the AAC Suppressor shoot (like a friend of mine did last year) I'd sure's hell take it.

Then I'd sell it and get something I actually liked.

[pezboy]

I apologize to KAC owners. In my opinion, for the money they charge for their products, it's a total rip-off. Here's a list specifically of what I have had problems with:

-SOPMOD issue KAC rail (currently being replaced by DD thank you God.)
Bottom rail gets loose and rattles, easy to lose dope with Atpial/peq2 with
top rail, nice good muzzle strike and that bottom rail pops right off.
-SOPMOD Issue KAC Vertical foregrip. Gets loose easily. Wobbles on rail.
Locking nipple busts off with good muzzle strike mentioned above.
-SOPMOD issue KAC QD suppressors. Heavy. Brand new out of the box baffle
strikes. (Happened more than once to quite a few "NIB" suppressors.) Did
I mention they were heavy?
-MK11 (These are not issued to me, I just deal with them when they shit the
bed.) Failures to feed full 20rd mags. We were shooting from a mountain top
in Hawthorne NV at a downward angle in high winds. Rifle repeatedly failed
to fire. One of the LCPO's on target, in Iraq. Had a bead on a guy, failure to
fire. Cleared it, failed again. When he RTB'd he (literally) chucked the rifle
and swore he'd never shoot one again. Switched the stock out on his MK12
to an LMT and stuck with that for the rest of his deployment. My buddy
Dallas likes his however.

Their flip up sights are about the only thing I don't hate and use on my guns.

They have some nice innovations to be sure. Just not nice enough to win me over.

Don't get me wrong, if I won an SR15 at the AAC Suppressor shoot (like a friend of mine did last year) I'd sure's hell take it.

Then I'd sell it and get something I actually liked.

I guess you don't like KAC stuff?

OP:
I've never used a Surefire rail so I can't compare the two. You can get a KAC rail with covers and maybe a VFG for $150. As long as you aren't planning on mounting an IR laser or red dot on the rails you should be GTG. I have never seen a bottom rail pop off myself. They do rattle around a little bit, but they are as solid as they can be since they are drop in.

Dustin

[Aragorn]

Wow, sounds like you had quite the experience there. That's a pity, I had been planning on using that (URX) rail on a build I'm in the middle of. You're the first person I've heard of ever really having problems with it.

Has anyone else had these problems?

[SDDuc996]

Wow, sounds like you had quite the experience there. That's a pity, I had been planning on using that (URX) rail on a build I'm in the middle of. You're the first person I've heard of ever really having problems with it.

Has anyone else had these problems?

I believe there's a forum member who was a Team guy. Just wondering if he had any similar experience with the MK11.

I couldn't tell you how many FF rails I've had to install for the guys who actually wanted a better system than issued. As I said before, thank God the Daniel Defense rails are being issued now.

I don't want to come off bashing anybody's kit, or rifle, just one of many (in the military) who's not a fan of their products.

[Aragorn]

Alright, well thanks for the heads up. You may have just saved me some serious green.

[SDDuc996]

Alright, well thanks for the heads up. You may have just saved me some serious green.

Don't let me sway your opinion too much. The products I've mentioned are the ones I have experience with. That URX might be a great piece of kit. Hell it looks awesome on the (Titleist's?) M4 in the NFA thread. If you're dead set on getting it, do so.

I had a KAC FF long ago and sold it because the rail wouldn't stay lined up with the receiver rail.

I go with kit that I know works,and I haven't heard any problems from. Larue,
Daniel Defense...

This post was in answer to the original question about the KAC drop ins vs the Surefire. I don't have any experience with the Surefire rail and believe there's a pic in this forum showing the rail IS lower than the receiver rail.

[Aragorn]

I'm still thinking about it. I like the look and some of the innovative features it has, but I take real world experiences very seriously. I suppose I should ask, which rail specifically was it that was giving you so much hell? The R5?

[Policetacteam]

To stay on track with what the OP was originally asking...I owned the Surefire rail and although I never had any accuracy issues there are better rail systems for the same money or even a few extra dollars. My Surefire did not match the height of my upper receiver..which wasn't a big deal for me because the only things I had mounted on that rail system were my Surefire M950 light system and a Tango Down VFG. The rails also appeared to be slightly out of spec because I had some difficulty getting the locking bars of my VFG to properly seat in the Surefire rails. Of course...Surefire blamed Tango Down and Tango Down blamed Surefire. On my new rig I'm using a Daniel Defense Lite Rail 9.0 and could not be happier!!! If free float is what you are after and you are on a budget consider free floats by either Yankee Hill Machine or Midwest Industries. Both are solid and very affordable.

[SDDuc996]

I'm still thinking about it. I like the look and some of the innovative features it has, but I take real world experiences very seriously. I suppose I should ask, which rail specifically was it that was giving you so much hell? The R5?


Not sure of the exact name. KAC carbine length FF rail, maybe 7 years ago.
You had to tighten the nut with a strap wrench. I just tired of the top rail misaligning and sold it soon after.

[alt154shiver]

Thanks for all of the input gents. On my personal AR I run a free float barrel, however with my issued A2 I don't have the luxury of being able to install a free float rail system (as much as I'd like to).

As it is in the Navy (not to include the SOCOM world), heaven forbid that you want to attach a flashlight, let alone personal optics, fore grips, redi-mags, or well... anything. The question regarding the drop in rail systems is more academic than anything. They're simply pieces of hardware that I've never worked with. I'd heard about the KAC rails, and came across the surefire. The DD drop in rails are new to me and I'll have to go take a look at them.

If I do manage to get some necessary accessories (read as: a light) onto my rifle I'll probably just bolt a piece of rail to the clam shell. I don't need the extra weight of a full length rail system at this time. Even if I did buy a drop in rail system I'd only use it for nine months and then it would go in the pile of "why did I buy this again?" things.

Now if only Magpul would come out with rifle length MOE handguards...

Again thanks for all of the replies. There are a lot of strong feelings about some of the brands out there, and a lot of first hand experience. I appreciate all of the input.

-alt

[Creeky73]

I have no doubt that the Surefire rail is of fine quality, as I know of at least one manufacturer of decent reputation that uses these rails on some of their stock models. They are, however, very pricey for a non-ff hand guard. If your optic situation is already set up, and you do not intend to be using the hand guard rail space for optics, I don't see a huge problem with going with non-ff hand guards. Under this assumption, I also would not consider it a huge con that the Surefire 12 o'clock rail is not at the same height as your flat top rail. The big issue is whether the ease of installation trumps the lack of free-floating the barrel, especially at the Surefire price point. I can certainly understand not wanting to get gunsmiths involved or, if this is your first AR, not wanting to spend a bunch of money on the tools needed to properly break down the gun, which a whole lot of ff hand guards require. If this is the case, take a look at the Daniel Defense Omega rails, not the Omega X that just recently came out. They free float without needing all the break down, but do cost more.

[alt154shiver]

I actually just got done looking at the DD Omega rails and I was liking what I saw. If it becomes possible to install a set without rocking the boat too much I might just have to consider it. I would probably also re-use a set of DD rails at a later date which would negate the "only useful on deployment" factor.

If I owned the weapon I wouldn't hesitate to run FF rails. It's not a question of cost, it's a question of Regs. They navy (outside the SOCOM world) has a stigma when it comes to firearms and gear. Hell they don't even like letting people obtain their own holsters. I actually had an officer try to tell me (and the rest of my unit) that if we used non-issued gear that they DoD might not pay out benefits, or that there could be questions about paying out benefits. I don't think I need to explain to anyone how pegged out my BS meter was when I heard that come out of her mouth.

The height difference on the Surefire rails wouldn't be a deal breaker. The rails would be mounting on an A2. No flat top receiver to line up with in the first place. I'm more concerned with the weight and quality issues. So far it seems like the DD Omega is the lightest of the bunch (with the benifit of being free float), but I'm pretty sure it's still not lighter than the standard A2 hand guards.

[SDDuc996]

I actually just got done looking at the DD Omega rails and I was liking what I saw. If it becomes possible to install a set without rocking the boat too much I might just have to consider it. I would probably also re-use a set of DD rails at a later date which would negate the "only useful on deployment" factor.

If I owned the weapon I wouldn't hesitate to run FF rails. It's not a question of cost, it's a question of Regs. They navy (outside the SOCOM world) has a stigma when it comes to firearms and gear. Hell they don't even like letting people obtain their own holsters. I actually had an officer try to tell me (and the rest of my unit) that if we used non-issued gear that they DoD might not pay out benefits, or that there could be questions about paying out benefits. I don't think I need to explain to anyone how pegged out my BS meter was when I heard that come out of her mouth.

The height difference on the Surefire rails wouldn't be a deal breaker. The rails would be mounting on an A2. No flat top receiver to line up with in the first place. I'm more concerned with the weight and quality issues. So far it seems like the DD Omega is the lightest of the bunch (with the benifit of being free float), but I'm pretty sure it's still not lighter than the standard A2 hand guards.

Officially, even in NAVSPECWAR it's highly frowned upon to alter your weapon outside of what the controlling unit has done to it. Fro example, before DD rails were installed on the MK18 uppers, KAC drop in were issued. Everybody hated them and some would go out of pocket to buy a good ff. I would install the rails for them and would catch hell from the unit in charge of all the weapons. This even included swapping fixed A2 to LMT collapsibles onto the MK12's. Though I would get in trouble if caught, it was a gay ass rule, and if that was what the operator wanted, that's what I did. To hell with the consequences.

Creeky beat me to it, but I was about to recommend the DD Omega for your A2 as well. Doesn't look too out of place, and no weapon mods.

[gunnut284]

I have a Surefire rail on my issue gun and it is ok. If I had the option I would go with a free float instead (DD, Larue, Troy, etc) but the Surefire does lock up solid. I don't think the method of attachment is ideal but it seems to work reasonably well. The little bit I've seen of the KAC rails they seemed to be loose and more easily damaged (softer aluminum).