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View Full Version : An explanation from Young about staking their gas keys



John Hwang
29 December 2009, 16:00
Here is a message from Daniel Young, president of Young MFG on why they do not stake their gas keys.

C-Fish
29 December 2009, 17:17
Interesting...

bigdad42
29 December 2009, 21:30
Wow! Confuses me at this point.:confused:

HeavyDuty
30 December 2009, 05:47
!!!!!!!

*That* certainly runs contrary to everything I've ever read.

rebelEMPIRE
30 December 2009, 09:59
I'm curious to see some technical data regarding the likeliness of said screws backing out without any staking.

-rebelEMPIRE

rob_s
30 December 2009, 17:25
Doesn't Young chrome-plate every one of their carriers?

John Hwang
30 December 2009, 17:43
Young also makes phosphate coated carriers.

rob_s
30 December 2009, 17:48
My bet is that they started not staking them because they were chrome-plating them and there's no good way to do that. Plate before assembly and you crack the chrome doing it, plate after assembly and you wind up plating over a cold joint.

If their glue method works for them and nobody is having them come loose then have at it. I see no reason not to stake a non-chrome key other than covering up the fact that you don't stake a chrome key because it's one of the weaknesses of having a chrome carrier.

Of course, I'm one of those weirdos that's still trying to figure out just what it is that's wrong with my standard (staked, BTW) carrier and bolt with their standard finish, so maybe I'm not the best person to listen to on this.

Paulo_Santos
30 December 2009, 18:13
I believe they use a standard key so they could stake them if they want go.

The way I see it is I seriously doubt that a company would put out that kind of information about THEIR product if it didn't work. The key I think is the torque value that they recommend and the adhesive.

From personal experience, I have an old ass Bushmaster BCG that I used red loctite as recommended by Bushmaster and it has thousands of rounds through it with no issues. There's more that one way to do things that will still work. I personally don't stake the castle nut on my AR's, but I do place a couple of drops of Blue Loctite and they do not move. As long as it works and it is reliable, it is good to go.

Stickman
31 December 2009, 07:35
Young is one of those companies where you never hear about problems. It doesn't mean that things don't slip out from time to time, but they have a very good reputation from everything I've ever heard.

Much like Rob, most of my BCGs are park'd, but I do appreciate the easier cleaning aspects of a good BCG that is coated/ plated.

rob_s
1 January 2010, 08:44
While I have never seen a Young key fail, I also see almost no Young carriers in guns to begin with, so statistically it's irrelevent.

What I HAVE seen is locktited carrier key screws loose enough to allow gas-leakage and/or shear off. I have also seen castle nuts back off of guns with blue locktite underneath them.

There is nothing wrong with doing something a different way if that different way is better, but most people seem to prefer different for the sake of different, or different out of obstinance whereby they stick to doing something wrong because to change would admit that they were doing it wrong.

The idea of red loctite on the carrier key screws is very odd. That carrier is known to get a little warm, and heat breaks down red loctite.... Strikes me that rockset or the Young method would be better.

Or you could just, you know, stake them like they should be to begin with. ;)

Paulo_Santos
1 January 2010, 09:38
While I have never seen a Young key fail, I also see almost no Young carriers in guns to begin with, so statistically it's irrelevent.

What I HAVE seen is locktited carrier key screws loose enough to allow gas-leakage and/or shear off. I have also seen castle nuts back off of guns with blue locktite underneath them.

There is nothing wrong with doing something a different way if that different way is better, but most people seem to prefer different for the sake of different, or different out of obstinance whereby they stick to doing something wrong because to change would admit that they were doing it wrong.

The idea of red loctite on the carrier key screws is very odd. That carrier is known to get a little warm, and heat breaks down red loctite.... Strikes me that rockset or the Young method would be better.

Or you could just, you know, stake them like they should be to begin with. ;)

I was actually going to get one of the Michiguns Staking tools, but since the LMT Piston system doesn't have the gas key, it is not really necessary.[BD][BD]
If someone used blue loctite on the castle nut and it came loose, they did something wrong. I placed several drops on one and I had to cut that some-bitch off. Now, I just place one or two drops and it will hold. If I had the right equipment I would stake it just for the added security, but I don't have a vice, so I went with the blue loctite method.

Quib
1 January 2010, 10:39
If I had the right equipment I would stake it just for the added security, but I don't have a vice, so I went with the blue loctite method.

Paulo, a vice is not necessary.

Lay the rear of the lower receiver on a block of wood (1X2) and using a modified screwdriver blade and hammer, stake the castle nut.

Here’s a pic of my DIY staking tool.

- Old flat-tip screwdriver blade, removed from the plastic handle.
- Tip was ground down wider to produce a suitable stake indentation.
- Refinished with G96 Cold Blue and lightly coated with CLP to protect the surface from rust during storage.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2782/4233721239_6364c7d6f6_o.png

Paulo_Santos
1 January 2010, 11:58
Quib, I might have to try that. My biggest problem was trying to keep the receiver from moving.

On another note, the Young BCGs are more for precision type of ARs as they are designed with tighter tolerances. Even if they were properly staked, I don't think they would be using them for the type of shooting I do. Now if I had a Benchrest or Precision build, then I wouldn't mind having one of these.

Ryo
1 January 2010, 20:13
Get a buddy to hold it, or get some wood and cut one to be the same fit to go into the bottom of the BCG opening and screw it into a bigger piece of wood so you can place the BCG on it and not roll too much. Just a thought. Never did it that way.. but never had the needed to stake a key either.

Very interesting information from Young. I have one of their chrome national match BCG that has run a few thousand rounds without any issues. It practically looks new.

rob_s
2 January 2010, 03:33
If I had the right equipment I would stake it just for the added security, but I don't have a vice, so I went with the blue loctite method.

Automatic Center Punch (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12619/Product/AUTOMATIC_CENTER_PUNCH) is the easiest way, but for me it's not a single-purpose tool as I also use it for other things.
(and I stake a lot of receiver endplates for people. you know, after that impenetrable blue locktite comes loose [bash])

Paulo_Santos
2 January 2010, 07:25
Automatic Center Punch (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=12619/Product/AUTOMATIC_CENTER_PUNCH) is the easiest way, but for me it's not a single-purpose tool as I also use it for other things.
(and I stake a lot of receiver endplates for people. you know, after that impenetrable blue locktite comes loose [bash])

They must not be using the Mil-Spec Blue Loctite then. LOL. They must be using the "Good Enough" Blue Loctite. LOL.

Quib
2 January 2010, 11:47
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4065/4238232526_1d3920000d_o.png

housefull
9 February 2010, 16:33
Here is a message from Daniel Young, president of Young MFG on why they do not stake their gas keys.
Wow! Confuses me at this point.
Reply With Quote

gotm4
9 February 2010, 19:24
I've reparied 100s if not 1000s of carriers and have not had a carrier key come lose nor broken a screw. My method is lapping the key on a whetstone, using Rocksett as a sealant on the key and on the screw threads. Using new screws Torx head and torquing to 55in lbs. Then staking with a MOACKS tool. YMMV.

My work regardless of nature features a lifetime warranty.

FWIW the Rocksett and torque will hold the screw tight. The staking ensures that it won't come lose even if the Rocksett somehow fails. Anyone who's been around aircraft (mainly helicopters) will remember torque on fasteners and secondary methods ensure that fasteners don't come lose.

Quib
9 February 2010, 20:31
Anyone who's been around aircraft (mainly helicopters) will remember torque on fasteners and secondary methods ensure that fasteners don't come lose.

Very true. Every fastener has a torque.

And self-locking nuts, cotter pins or safety wire to name a few, all act as back-ups to prevent loosening of hardware under the vibration of flight. Much the same way staking in addition to torque, keeps carrier key screws from backing out under the vibration of firing.

5pins
10 February 2010, 09:55
If using Permatex and torqueing works for Young then great. The point is to make sure that the key stays tight.
However I have to wonder about a couple of his statements.


“ The Mil Spec. also calls for the gas key bottom surface to be “SEALED” with Permatex gasket sealer.”


I took off a lot of carrier keys when I was in the Army and never saw any thread locker or gasket sealer compounds on any of them. Also the TM doesn’t call for any to be used when replacing.


“ Don’t use a hammer and a punch! You can stretch the thread on the screw and now you have a loose screw that will eventually break if the gun even fires.”


The TM does in fact call for the repairer to do exactly what Mr. Young is saying not to do. I can’t imagine that the military has been doing it wrong for all these years.

Paulo_Santos
23 February 2010, 07:12
Just a little update on this. I'm just finishing up the Colt Armorer Class and I asked the instructor about this topic.

The way Young Manufacturer recommends installing the carrier key is the new way of installing it and it is absolutely acceptable. If you want to stake the key after using the red loctite and torquing it down, you can, but it is NOT necessary. The old way of doing it is to torque the screws down and staking them. BOTH WAYS ARE ACCEPTABLE.

I also asked about the castle nut and he doesn't recommend using blue loctite because it can damage the threads. It will definitely hold it in place, but if you plan on taking the buffer tube off, he does not recommend using using the blue loctite so I won't be using any loctite on the buffer tube.

rob_s
23 February 2010, 09:58
The way Young Manufacturer recommends installing the carrier key is the new way of installing it and it is absolutely acceptable. If you want to stake the key after using the red loctite and torquing it down, you can, but it is NOT necessary. The old way of doing it is to torque the screws down and staking them. BOTH WAYS ARE ACCEPTABLE.


Acceptable to who? The instructor? Colt? The US Military?

I may be alone in this, but until a document surfaces, preferably a US Military document, that says the glue method is acceptable, I'll stick to staking.

Paulo_Santos
23 February 2010, 11:49
Acceptable to who? The instructor? Colt? The US Military?

I may be alone in this, but until a document surfaces, preferably a US Military document, that says the glue method is acceptable, I'll stick to staking.

It is acceptable to the instructor and to the technicians who came up with it. The instructor is real anal about doing things to the gun that aren't combat proven so I'd he says it is ok, I'll take his word for it that it is good.

Eric
24 February 2010, 02:39
Interesting. I wonder if Colt has actually changed their procedure while assembling factory weapons. The most recent ones I have seen have substantial staking applied from the sides.

Paulo_Santos
24 February 2010, 02:58
Interesting. I wonder if Colt has actually changed their procedure while assembling factory weapons. The most recent ones I have seen have substantial staking applied from the sides.

Colt still installs them the old way. They torque them to spec and stake them. They have a machine (machine, not tool), that stakes the carriers properly so they will continue to do it that way.

rob_s
24 February 2010, 04:15
It is acceptable to the instructor and to the technicians who came up with it. The instructor is real anal about doing things to the gun that aren't combat proven so I'd he says it is ok, I'll take his word for it that it is good.

Without having any idea who this person is, I'm going to consider it one man's opinion.

Those that I've queried about this that know more than I do all share my opinion that the Young letter is no more than a way of explaining away why they do not do something that they cannot do. I see no reason not to stake other than a surface treatment that may crack, and I see no benefit in the surface treatment.

When the TDP changes, or Colt starts shipping guns with keys affixed in the manner listed, maybe I'll change my tune.

Specialized Armament
24 February 2010, 05:20
Just a little update on this. I'm just finishing up the Colt Armorer Class and I asked the instructor about this topic.

The way Young Manufacturer recommends installing the carrier key is the new way of installing it and it is absolutely acceptable. If you want to stake the key after using the red loctite and torquing it down, you can, but it is NOT necessary. The old way of doing it is to torque the screws down and staking them. BOTH WAYS ARE ACCEPTABLE.

I also asked about the castle nut and he doesn't recommend using blue loctite because it can damage the threads. It will definitely hold it in place, but if you plan on taking the buffer tube off, he does not recommend using using the blue loctite so I won't be using any loctite on the buffer tube.

Interesting...

Stickman
25 February 2010, 11:34
Paulo,

Which instructor taught your class?

Paulo_Santos
25 February 2010, 12:16
Paulo,

Which instructor taught your class?

Mike Heath.

Stickman
25 February 2010, 12:48
Thanks, that name doesn't ring any bells with me.

5pins
27 February 2010, 17:27
I had a Colt Match Target HBAR that I bough in November of 2000 that was not staked. I don’t know if it was missed or if that was standard for the MT. Maybe they only stake the LE guns and not the civilian ones?

Ryo
27 February 2010, 22:15
All the LMT BCGs I've had always have been staked, but yours predates the ones I've bought.

rgrprib
19 March 2010, 08:22
So, if staking is recommended because of the fear of vibration and subsequent bolt walk, shouldn't the automotive industry stake rather than LocTite bolts on an engine to prevent the possibility of certain bolts walking out due to vibration?
There must be much more vibration in a cars engine than an AR.

Just asking,
prib

wolf_walker
22 September 2010, 05:12
So, if staking is recommended because of the fear of vibration and subsequent bolt walk, shouldn't the automotive industry stake rather than LocTite bolts on an engine to prevent the possibility of certain bolts walking out due to vibration?
There must be much more vibration in a cars engine than an AR.

Just asking,
prib

Lot more heat in a BC under hard use I suppose.

But if you drive a modern-ish automobile, you are trusting your life and those of your loved one's to lock-tite every time, doubly so if you are on two wheels.
I don't know how hot a BC get's, or when assorted types of lock-tite craps out, but I know it's significantly over 300 degrees
in practice.

Eric
14 October 2010, 19:42
have one of w/o barrels. stainless steel 1/7 recon always on target . looked in to the company ,they have quite a few DCMS winners
Lost me on that one.

phirehawk
25 October 2010, 21:41
In the auto industry, they use bolt stretch calculated in a lab to approximate a certain bolt torque. Piston rods are the only place you can actually measure the stretch and is the best way to install your bolts. Very few (I can't think of one, so I'm sure I'm missing a couple - oh wait, the brakes!) bolts in a car are required to hold under the perpendicular pressure that a BCG gas key bolt is. As to the calipers on brakes, their primary force is still linear, and those bolts are always much larger than they need to be, don't ask how I know. Also, most bolts in cars hold a linear pressure and have several other points of contact for a particular part. One nice reason to stake even if you Red-tited is to visually check if the bolts have moved, though they won't... ever. I've used Red Tite in racing engines for years... less and less as I learned what parts really need it, and what don't. It makes taking them apart again a real pain. Thank the Good Lord for copper anti-seize!