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View Full Version : S&W M&P 15-22 (pic heavy) Serious Practice Tool – or just a fun plinker?



Jerry R
24 January 2010, 17:00
Product Description: AR-15 Style Rifle manufactured by Smith & Wesson chambered for the 22 Long Rifle Cartridge. Styled after their M&P 15 Series of Black Rifles, it has a sixteen inch barrel and I measured a one in fifteen inch twist rate; their web site states 1:16”. The barrel is available threaded or un-threaded. According to Smith&Wesson’s web site, the MSRP is $569.00. At 5.5 pounds it is light compared to a stock carbine, and this may affect handling characteristics during some drills.

I started this project as a way to be able to practice carbine drills inexpensively. I looked at 22LR conversion kits. Price was acceptable, but the good ones were in the $200 range, or more. And, a downside to that option was the 22LR residue in my AR barrel. So I decided to look at complete units as an option.

I had an opportunity to pick up one of the new model M&P 15-22 Rifles with the threaded barrel at what I thought was a reasonable price; $429 and four spare magazines at $15.95 each.

The unit looked good as received:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1080LeftSide.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1082RightSide.jpg

The bird cage appears to be a stock USGI A1 Flash Suppressor. If that is true, the barrel is threaded ½ by 28 and should take any after market devices; including sound suppressors.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1093BirdCage.jpg

The “captured” take-down pins work the same as on a standard AR Platform, so I took the upper receiver off and cleaned the barrel, breech face, and bolt face. The lower receiver fire control internals looked clean, well lubricated, and appear to be steel USGI (semi auto) parts, with the exception of the selector. It is a nylon or polymer part that looks like a “normal” AR-15 selector.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1083FireControl.jpg

The sides of the lower receiver are a little wider than a stock AR Lower and the trigger/hammer pins to not come flush with the sides of the receiver. I’m not sure if any of the anti-walk pin sets would fit; but those are probably not necessary on a 22LR. Pin spacing mic’s out to be the same as an AR-15 lower receiver and aftermarket “drop in” trigger groups should fit if anyone wanted to make that investment for the 15-22. I lubricated everything “as usual” and reassembled the rifle.

The lower receive will NOT accept AR-15 magazines. The factory magazines have a twenty-five round capacity, and are easily disassembled for cleaning or maintenance. Shown below from left to right are – follower and spring, “load assist” button, magazine body, floor plate and the push-button piece for removing the floor plate.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1107DisassembledMagazine.jpg

The lower receiver and 6-position mil-spec buffer tube appear to be injection molded of a nylon or polymer resin, and are formed as a single piece. The buffer tube is hollow and has a Smith&Wesson logo rubber plug in the outside end. The receiver end is solid. A carbine style adjustable buttstock is installed.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1085LeftSideLowerwithBufferTube.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1086RightSideLowerwithBufferTub.jpg

The trigger guard is flared slightly for gloved use, but is integral with the lower receiver. It is molded as a single piece, so you won’t be able to add the MagPul Enhanced Trigger Guard. I also don’t think I will be able to replace the pistol grip. The screw used to secure it appears to be an allen or socket-head bolt, and looks like the factory deliberately rounded out the inside so it can’t be removed. I am going to send S&W a note on that one, just to be sure.

The upper receiver and handguard (separate pieces) are also formed of the same nylon or polymer resin and have an integral picatinny rail. They are not “T” marked, but slot spacing is correct for rail mounted accessories. The sights are both removable, and while they do not fold they are acceptable for use with a red dot sight. The rear A2 Style Sight, at a minimum, would need to be removed if a scope is to be used.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1090A2RearSight.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1098A2RearSight.jpg

The front sight is a square post with the four-detent style adjustment:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1092FrontSight.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1101FrontSight.jpg

On the handguard, I installed a ladder rail cover on each side, and four of the Magpul XTM panels on the bottom for ergonomics. Those, along with trying the fitment of the VLTOR EMOD Stock almost makes it look like a real carbine:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1096LeftSidewithEMODStockrev-2.jpg

After cleaning I took it to an indoor range that has 25 yards as the maximum distance. I had a variety of ammunition with me, as I had read some interesting stories about the first few off the production line. I chose to zero with CCI Mini-Mag solids, and after 4 left clicks and 6 up clicks it was printing about one half inch low at 25 yards. Almost exactly at the six o’clock hold position. That zero should be fine for any iron sight work I choose to do.

I had one failure to feed in the very first magazine. That may have been me. I took a front bench rest for the zeroing portion of the range session, and was putting pressure on the magazine with my front hand while shooting that initial magazine. The picture below is a composite of three shots of the same jammed cartridge. Left-most is a slight down angle showing the dented nose where it jammed into the upper portion of the chamber entrance. Middle image shows a side view with the dented nose and the bend in the case. Right-most view is the dent caused by the bolt riding the case while attempting to chamber.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1102ThreeViewsofBullet.jpg

I ran another 250 rounds through it off hand using the CCI Mini-Mags, some 20 year old Winchester Wild Cat shells, and some Super-X. All were plated, and none were hollow points. Even with my old eyes, it kept a two to two and a half inch cluster around point of aim. No other failures of any type were seen during this range session.

There is a gun show coming up February 6th and I will probably end up with an inexpensive red dot sight on it for practice.

Now back to the original premise, “Is it a serious tool for practicing carbine drills, or just a fun plinker?”

It is definitely a fun plinker. People at the range wanted to line up to shoot it. But the jury is still out on it being a serious practice tool. It is very light and has a heavy trigger; the advertised 7 pounds is not far off. With the EMOD stock on it, it handled fairly well and came up from a medium low ready (range shelf on each line) to “on target” very quickly but I could not do target transitions laterally.

Until the ground dries up, and I can get out to work some very basic drills, I will only say the S&W M&P 15-22 definitely has potential.

I will update this thread as the project progresses, and will include opinions of others that have an opportunity to shoot the M&P 15-22.

I hope this has been informative, and thanks for taking the time to read it.

Army Chief
24 January 2010, 17:11
Exceptional work, Jerry!

AC

Jerry R
24 January 2010, 17:19
Thanks AC - this is a fun one so far.

Paulo_Santos
24 January 2010, 17:24
Very nice review.

As far as your question about it being a serious trainer, I personally don't think that any .22 can be as good as a 5.56 because of the differences in recoil. Doing doble taps with a a 5.56 is much different than with a .22.

UDT
25 January 2010, 06:13
A very nice review and nice pics. Thanks!

Optimus Prime
25 January 2010, 06:17
I'm curious to find out what S&W says about your grip screw. Numerous guys over on ARFCOM have swapped them out for others and haven't said anything about the screw being stripped.
They do require the AR-10 gapper to use the MIAD grip with the extended backstrap.

Jerry R
25 January 2010, 08:35
Thanks for all the comments – much appreciated.

I strongly agree that Double Taps are just one of the potential problem areas that will arise. How much abuse will the magazines take – dropping during reloads, will handling a light 22LR magazine cause fumbling with a heavier 556 magazine, malfunction creation and clearing drills are also among some of the other areas where there will be gross differences.

I guess where I think this might have some benefit is muscle memory; and the thoughts below would not work in a formal class for obvious reasons.

With another shooter, build a scenario – number and location of targets, barricades, cover, etc. Determine how you want to run the drill. Walk through it with the 15-22 slowly. Work the drill several times with critiques after each trial. When you have the drill defined the way you want it executed; pick up the speed a little. After you feel you have mastered the drill – bring out the 556 and run it again – multiple times. Make note of any equipment differences that affect performance, and adjust accordingly.

Then, build another scenario and start over.

What are the benefits?

Saving a couple hundred rounds of 556 during a practice session may, or may not be considered a plus.

Saving wear and tear on your primary carbine, especially if you only have one, is also very subjective. It is a tool to be used and repaired as required to keep it functioning.

Wear and tear on an old man’s body is another consideration for some of us.

It really comes down to individuals weighing the pros and cons. Agreed, there are many down-sides to using any 22LR for training in this environment, but there may be a few pluses as well. I am going to give it a try and see how things work for me. Only time (and honest evaluations) will tell. I plan to take good notes and will try to objective and honest in my evaluations. It has to be a benefit, or scrapped.

In the end, the 15-22 may end up being just a fun plinker. We’ll see.

Again, thanks for the comments. I like this board, and I respect the ones that run it.

Optimus Prime
25 January 2010, 09:13
I have yet to hear anyone say their shooting has gotten worse from shooting .22lr. The reenforcement of the basic fundamentals and increased trigger time, regardless of recoil differences simply can't hurt, so long as you remember that follow ups and double taps are going to be different.
The upside of course, is that you can afford to put lots of rounds downrange, and if you're one of those who shy away from higher recoil and sharp noises (which is many more than they want to admit), the lower recoil and somewhat quieter noise will be much less of a distraction, allowing you to concentrate on body positioning, breathing, sight picture, and trigger squeeze.

federalist22
25 January 2010, 09:53
I would compare shooting the M&P 15-22 to swapping out the slide on your 1911 with a Kimber .22LR slide (or other mfr)--fun to shoot economically and good for sight picture and hold, which makes it good for practice. It's also good when walking the farm looking for varmint to shoot when you don't need something much bigger to kill with.

Eric
25 January 2010, 10:12
Well done review sir and outstanding photos. Thank you.

Scarecrow87
26 January 2010, 14:40
Great review Jerry. I have two M&P 15-22's and have a ton of fun with them. I received a few AFGs a few days ago and plan on attaching one to one of the M&P's and try it out.

Note: I've attached MOE grips on them with no problems.

Also, Love the photos!

Charlie-2-6
27 January 2010, 03:20
Great review.
Apparently they're available overhere in Euroland too. So it might be worthwhile to check them out before going for that Colt/Umarex 22LR M4 clone.
Just one question: will the Black Dog & CMMG 22LR mags fit?

rob_s
27 January 2010, 04:39
first, awesome review.

I just bought one of these yesterday and put 90 rounds through it with a total of 5 malfunctions. All were identical failures to feed which left the round sticking up vertically from the magazine when stripped. They all displayed the same kind of dented case as what you show above. Most of these malfunctions came within the first five rounds of the magazine. I fired one full magazine loaded to 15 rounds without any malfunctions.

I initially did not clean or lube the gun at all. After a single malfunction on the first magazine I pulled out the bolt and lubed it lightly with Slip 2000 EWL 30. This appeared to have no impact on the malfunctions and one could even argue that malfunctions increased from one per mag before lube to two per mag after lube. All ammo fired was CCI Minimag 40 grain round nose.

I'm going to try to get to the public range this weekend and get it sighted in and the malfunctions worked out.

I put one of the cheap Primary Arms red dot sights on their throwlever mount on the gun but I did not zero it or the iron sights.

Also, that stupid plug in the end of the receiver extension freaked me out. It fell out of the gun and at first I thought it was just range trash until I saw the S&W logo on it. Any reason to keep it?

Question though, what the hell is a "double tap"?

Scarecrow87
27 January 2010, 15:18
Black Dog and CMMG mags won't work. It's a proprietary mag. On the plus side, they're 18 bucks a pop as opposed to 35 (Colt M4 .22 mag). Also, the mags can be taken down and cleaned easily.

Unlike the Umarex, the bolt catch works! It field strips just like an AR (the internals look pretty much the same minus the fact that there is no gas block and yada, yada. [:D] )

rob: I think the plug at the end of the extension is for you to add in a 1 lb. weight for training purposes (to make it a bit more heavy like real M4/AR styled rifles). Or maybe it's for M&Ms.

Optimus Prime
27 January 2010, 17:50
What I mean by double tap is two rounds on the same target in rapid succession.

rob_s
28 January 2010, 03:14
What I mean by double tap is two rounds on the same target in rapid succession.

is that a hammer, dedicated pair, or deliberate pair?

Optimus Prime
28 January 2010, 06:03
I thought hammers where two center mass followed with a head shot?

rob_s
28 January 2010, 11:51
I thought hammers where two center mass followed with a head shot?

That's a failure drill. Hammer to the body, single round to the brain.

Optimus Prime
28 January 2010, 14:13
So much confusion in the shooting world... ha.

SDDuc996
29 January 2010, 00:46
Great review Jerry. Just gives me an excuse to buy one. (For my son of course, never mind he's only 7 months.)

If there are problems with double taps, does this also occur with 22lr conversion uppers? I would imagine this being a problem because of the rimmed case and staggered rounds in the mag correct?

I've debated for awhile whether to buy this, or an AR conversion. The S&W is cheap reliable and fun, whereas with the conversion, I could always swap to a 5.56/6.8 upper when he gets older.

Damn these decisions!

Optimus Prime
29 January 2010, 07:37
It's not so much an issue with the function, it's just that a .22lr platform has no real recoil, so you can get follow up shots much faster, and that can goof with your muscle memory.

rob_s
29 January 2010, 10:54
We're having an interesting discussion on another forum about pairs, but my belief is that it will be a virtual non-issue of proper technique is maintained, whether pairs (deliberate, dedicated, hammers), NSRs, failure drills, or "shoot 'em to the ground" is your methodology.

FWIW, the reason I asked what I did is because in many circles the term "double tap" comes across like "clip".

SDDuc996
29 January 2010, 19:34
We're having an interesting discussion on another forum about pairs, but my belief is that it will be a virtual non-issue of proper technique is maintained, whether pairs (deliberate, dedicated, hammers), NSRs, failure drills, or "shoot 'em to the ground" is your methodology.

FWIW, the reason I asked what I did is because in many circles the term "double tap" comes across like "clip".


That's pretty damned funny. Though I've called them mags since I was corrected when young, this is the first time I've heard of an elitist attitude over "double-taps/controlled pairs".

I've heard instructors call them both, and don't doubt in the least that some people would think like that. Hilarious.

My dad is a 22yr Army vet with three and a half tours in Vietnam. Much to my chagrin he still calls them clips. I don't doubt in the least his ability to professionally end lives.

Good stuff Rob!

rob_s
30 January 2010, 03:18
What sounds "elitist" to the ignorant is simply educated professionals that understand terminology and the implications of that understanding.

This is a perfect example, in fact. If someone understands the difference between deliberate pairs, dedicated pair, and hammers and the details of how to deliver each, and has trained on each, the potential negative impact of training with a reduced recoil firearm like the M&P15-22 is greatly reduced vs. the ignorant guy slamming away with "double taps".

If one is concerned with this negative impact it strikes me that they would do well to become a student and increase their depth of knowledge.

Which is why I asked for a definition of "double taps". There isn't one, and that matters.

SDDuc996
30 January 2010, 05:02
Elitist to the ignorant huh? Nice.

If a school/instructor wants to name a technique (firing sequence) fantastic.

I can guarantee you I can walk over to the SF compound right now, ask the ODA guys what a hammer, deliberate or dedicated pairs are and they'd look at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. Same way if I walk over to the Polish SF (GROM) compound right now and ask two of my Team guy buddies, they'd probably look at me the same way.

I guess we're all just ignorant though. Holy crap, and they trust us with guns!? Weird.

;)

Jerry R
30 January 2010, 08:48
To get us back on track it has been pointed out to me that there are two pretty obvious areas of concern with the 15-22 when doing serious practice that I had not thought of. One is the charging handle; short, thin, flimsy plastic with a handle that could break off if seriously racked. The other is the lack of a forward assist. I have never used the FA, but GriffonSec is ex army and said that slapping the FA was part of their training regimen when clearing a malfunction.

Gun show next weekend and I will be looking for a cheap red dot. I have pretty much decided on the AimShot HG-M2. It is a little more expensive than some others, but has an EOTech style reticle and claims to be parallax free. Most of the others either make no claims on parallax, or say "parallax free at 50 yards." If I can't find one at the show, I will eShop for it. I've seen them in the $140 range.

NOLACOPUSMC
30 January 2010, 12:32
Is the charging handle actually shorter or does it just have a shorter stroke? Could a mil spec one be substituted?

Optimus Prime
30 January 2010, 20:49
The FA is a non-issue in my mind, I know some "serious" shooters think they should have never been added to the design, and the only time I've ever used one was in some really really cold weather and the lube I was using was getting solid enough to prevent the system going into battery one a fresh mag (cycled fine, just a problem from bolt lock)
Also, on a rim fire a forward assist could be downright dangerous.

I won't have my 15-22 until Monday, so I can't comment on the charging handle at this time though.

SDDuc996
30 January 2010, 21:58
I apologize for that rant Jerry and fellow forum members. Rob, I'm only busting your balls.

I'm still torn as to whether I want the M&P15-22 or a .22lr upper conversion.

If some of the parts are plastic and prone to breakage, I may have to end up going the conversion route.

However I've had the aluminum CH on my M4 shear right at the gas tube hole, though I think it would be less prone to breakage than a plastic one. As far as the forward assist, I've always been taught to pull it forward with my finger on my support hand before closing the ejection port door, so the forward assist is a non-issue for me.

GriffonSec
31 January 2010, 09:30
From the conversation Jerry (my father) and I have had, the charging handle is physically shorter, and a standard cannot be substituted. I did ask if the latch could be replaced with a standard milspec type latch, or tactical latch, and that's when we got into the 'flimsy' part.

I brought up the forward assist only as it relates to drills, not a necessity. I can only think of a couple of times I've actually had to use it, but it is one of those ingrained steps as I learned it, back in the early 90's, and of course, times have changed in the approach to fighting with this rifle. This obviously went towards the discussion of whether or not it's good trainer. In my mind, outside of weight (a fixable issue with lead weight) and recoil, a 'trainer' should mimic the 'worker'. But that's just me.

Jerry R
31 January 2010, 11:58
Sorry Guys, should have posted this with the original.

First off, the pistol grip bolt is not messed up. I just needed to find the proper size Allen Wrench that was long enough to easily reach it. The size is 3/16 inch and it takes a long Allen to reach it. But it came off easily. My Bad :o

Now, the charging handle issue. First picture is the bolt assembly with the charging handle in the "normal" position that it would be in the upper receiver.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1110BoltandHandle.jpg

Next is an upside down shot of the upper receiver with the charging handle almost in the latched position. You can see the groove it rides in stops way short of a full length charging handle. Close up is a little washed out, but shows the groove better.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1117LatchinUpper.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1120Latchcloseup.jpg

The last picture is a side-by-side with a standard AR's charging handle to show the difference in length.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1115LatchwithBCM.jpg

As you can see, the 15-22 charging handle is molded from a single piece of plastic with a pinned latch. Not a lot of meat there and I do not believe it would stand up to even moderate abuse. I will probably try to order a spare from S&W.

Hope this update helps.

Optimus Prime
31 January 2010, 15:44
BCM needs to get to work on an after-market one for it. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Jerry R
1 February 2010, 12:14
Optimus,
I thought so too. I sent them an email - correspondence below and it is a cut/paste from an email thread so start at the bottom and read "up" please:

Quote:

It probably would.

The SW 22 cal is the hottest AR15 on the market right now.


From: Ragan, Jerry
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 12:54 PM
To: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Subject: RE: Customer Feedback for www.BravoCompanyMFG.com

Thanks for the speedy response.
If you ever do, let me know. I really think it would be a hot seller.

Best Regards,

Jerry

Jerry W. Ragan, MCP
Consulting Systems Engineer

From: Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 1:53 PM
To: Ragan, Jerry
Subject: RE: Customer Feedback for www.BravoCompanyMFG.com

Hi Jerry,

No plans at this time,

Thanks for contacting us,

From: Ragan, Jerry
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 12:52 PM
To: bravocompany@wi.rr.com
Subject: Customer Feedback for www.BravoCompanyMFG.com

Hi,

Any chance you will be manufacturing a charging handle for the Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22? The plastic charging handle it comes with will not stand even moderate abuse in a practice or drill environment.

Best Regards,

Jerry

Jerry W. Ragan, MCP
Consulting Systems Engineer

Optimus Prime
1 February 2010, 15:08
Hmm... Might need to throw an email their way as well. It sounds like they just need a little more push in the right direction.

Jerry R
2 February 2010, 09:08
The AimShot HGM2 was purchased and installed along with a VFG that I had in the spare parts box. I think this will be the test rig for now.

I like the AimShot. Television shaped hood, aluminum, claims "parallax free" and able to take recoil from 12 Gauge, etc. It is a multi-reticule device with two circle/dot reticules, along with two different sized single dots. That provides me with features which are pretty close to what I am used to with the EOTech.

As to the parallax free claim, it actually seemed minimal at basement distances of ten to fifteen feet. Uses an allen wrench to adjust POI, so I set the dot on top of the iron sight post. We'll see how it sights in. There is also a small screw the instructions say to tighten after zeroing to lock the settings.

I'm not sure how I am going to like a standard co-witness when I am used to a lower third with the 516; we'll just see how that goes. I really don't want to invest in a set of folding BUIS; but may have to.

More pictures.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1127LeftSidewithAimShot.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1132RightSidewithAimShot.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1135SimShotRightSideClose-up.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1136AimShotLeftSideClose-up.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/Smith-Wesson%2015-22/IMG_1138AimShotRearView.jpg

Optimus Prime
2 February 2010, 11:41
What's the going price on that optic? (Or a link would work...)

I need something EOTech-ish for mine as well, and dropping a $450 optic on the rifle I paid $300 for just isn't doing it for me.

Jerry R
2 February 2010, 12:36
Amazon.com has them for $123.39 plus shipping. I just checked and they claim to have two left in stock.

Everywhere else I looked, they are $139.99 plus shipping.

The Amazon price would have been in the mid $130 range after shipping. So I contacted the factory (just a few miles away) and they put me in touch with a local seller that let me have it for $140 cash and that included tax.

I like to spend my money where I live if the price is even close. I may need him again some day.

http://www.aimshot.com/

is a link to their web site, and click "Dealer Information" to see who sells them.

They make two models. One is the HGMD which has four different sized dots. The one I purchased is the HGM2 which has four different reticules; two are circle/dot type.

piggly_wiggly
3 February 2010, 09:03
Anytime you have a piece of equipment that mimics your fire-controls, reduces your training cost, increases your range options, helps with fundamentals of marksmanship, and encourages more shooting, it should be considered as a potential serious training tool. To argue otherwise, would be like saying dry-fire is useless. [BD]

This MP-15/22 and other 22 conversion kits are like dry-fire plus- all the training benefits, with feedback downrange, you don't have to reset the trigger each time, and a lot more fun. [:D] We just got 25 of them for the program I instruct for- aside from ammunition issues (our current inventory only has standard velocity, waxy eloy target rounds) and the initial funny looks from our shooters, I expect to see real dividends over the course or our first year training with them.

Here are several great points on training with a 22 pistol that directly translate to this platform- pulled from this article (http://pistol-training.com/articles/22-training-pistols-pros-cons) at pistol-training.com:

Skills you can work on effectively with a .22 equivalent to your normal pistol:

* marksmanship
* strong- and weak-hand only shooting
* draw stroke
* reloads
* transitions
* judgmental shooting
* shooting on the move… With SOM, the line between good .22 training and bad .22 training is definitely easy to cross. But like transition drills, SOM training can benefit from a .22 in terms of learning how to move your feet and position your body for a stable shooting platform on the move.

Skills you should not practice with a .22lr handgun:

* recoil management
* sight tracking
* rapid multiple shots on a single target
* failure drills

Defender3
11 March 2010, 14:29
Anytime you have a piece of equipment that mimics your fire-controls, reduces your training cost, increases your range options, helps with fundamentals of marksmanship, and encourages more shooting, it should be considered as a potential serious training tool. To argue otherwise, would be like saying dry-fire is useless. [BD]

+1. I've tried to set up my 15-22 as close to my AR platform as possible so I can practice with the same kit. Some TTPs don't translate well, like trying clear a double feed, so I don't focus on those in my training. Another shortcoming is that I'm limited (for now) to an indoor range where I can only fire the 15-22. Hopefully when the weather clears I can get out and follow the 15-22 drills with the real thing. BTW-I'm in NO way implying I'm high speed, I'd just like to be less drag. [:D] I'm also trying new equipment and new TTPs to refine my skills.

My 15-22:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/defender3va/DSC_0417-2.jpg

Here's someone we all know using a 15-22 (SBR no less). I'd luv to hear the circumstances behind this picture, note the high-speed ziplock rear QD mount. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v501/defender3va/3787181286_9b88cee7f2_o.jpg

Optimus Prime
11 March 2010, 16:44
Another shortcoming is that I'm limited (for now) to an indoor range where I can only fire the 15-22. Hopefully when the weather clears I can get out and follow the 15-22 drills with the real thing.

Poor excuse. Here's the first range trip with mine last month. Just gotta dress right.
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6076/1522snowy.jpg
Just busting your balls.[BD]

Defender3
11 March 2010, 16:59
Poor excuse. Here's the first range trip with mine last month. Just gotta dress right.
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/6076/1522snowy.jpg
Just busting your balls.[BD]

Okay - I was going to break your balls, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

Jerry R
11 March 2010, 18:47
Defender3,

Great input, nice pics --- thanks for sharing. I like the "MagPul Shirt" with the 15-22. Makes me feel a lot better about the direction I went.

Edit - looks like the guy next to him is about to shoot himself in the foot - literally !!

Defender3
11 March 2010, 19:16
Defender3,

Edit - looks like the guy next to him is about to shoot himself in the foot - literally !!

At least his trigger finger is where it should be!

SDDuc996
12 March 2010, 02:10
I'm waiting for a mag to fall out.

Hackmslash
18 July 2012, 19:21
I'm entering this thread very late, but wanted to put some very nice words out about the S&W M&P 15-22. I bought an olive green version from Academy Sporting Goods for $459 this past weekend and took it straight to the indoor range. I have a Bushmaster 223 Superlight Carbine and was really interested in the M&P 15-22 for fun plinking and possibly a practice tool. I have to agree with all the comments I have read in this thread about the pros & cons of using this gun as a practice tool, but I have to say that the gun was freaking fun to shoot. I fired about 200 rounds and only had one FTF, but it was a CCI round that was probably over 14 years old. After giving the round time to react to a delayed fire, I ejected the round to see that it should have gone off, as the indentation on the rim was complete and sufficient. Gun didn't fail, but the old round did.

I've purchased a couple of extra magazines from cheaper-than-dirt.com (who delivered the shipment in to my house on Wednesday when I placed my order Monday morning! - Excellent job and excellent prices!) as well as an inexpensive 5-position forearm grip (UTG Model 4 Vertical Foregrip Black Ergonomic Ambidextrous 5-position Foldable Foregrip Picatinny RB-FGRP170B). The magazines were less than $16 each and the forearm grip was $15. The grip does fit a bit loosely on the rail, but for $15 it very nice.

The olive green version I purchased looked very similar to the one posted in this thread (great photos btw), but the barrel, upper, and lower receiver are olive green and the 5-position butt, the pistol grip, magazine, and front and rear sights are black. (Apparently this version is a limited run of the gun, and it was about $40 cheaper than the version with the raised AR sight/handle, so I was very proud to become its owner.) The indented lettering on the receivers are filled with white paint, so the gun has a very sweet look in my opinion. The added forearm grip was black, so all the attachments match for a very nice look. I added a Bushel red-dot sight that came with my Bushmaster (on which I put a tatical 1x->4x scope) on the M&P (black of course) which worked very well when sighted in at the range.

The gun does disassemble like an AR, and was very easy to clean and reassemble. The magazines are S&W Proprietary, but also very cheap. The magazines also disassembled and reassembled very easily for cleaning. Nice engineering work here S&W. I read reviews about the Colt version of a 15-22, but was dissappointed with that gun when I saw that it was basically an inexpensive (but proven) typical 22lr design internally. Heck one should probably just buy the Mossberg 15-22 for $250 in my opinion if you are considering the Colt version.

I obviously want to run many more rounds though the gun, as I've barely spent more than $5 on ammo so far. However, at this point, I highly recommend you snatch one of these babies up.

Hackmslash
18 July 2012, 19:29
I'm entering this thread very late, but wanted to put some very nice words out about the S&W M&P 15-22. I bought an olive green version from Academy Sporting Goods for $459 this past weekend and took it straight to the indoor range. I have a Bushmaster 223 Superlight Carbine and was really interested in the M&P 15-22 for fun plinking and possibly a practice tool. I have to agree with all the comments I have read in this thread about the pros & cons of using this gun as a practice tool, but I have to say that the gun was freaking fun to shoot. I fired about 200 rounds and only had one FTF, but it was a CCI round that was probably over 14 years old. After giving the round time to react to a delayed fire, I ejected the round to see that it should have gone off, as the indentation on the rim was complete and sufficient. Gun didn't fail, but the old round did.

I've purchased a couple of extra magazines from cheaper-than-dirt.com (who delivered the shipment in to my house on Wednesday when I placed my order Monday morning! - Excellent job and excellent prices!) as well as an inexpensive 5-position forearm grip (UTG Model 4 Vertical Foregrip Black Ergonomic Ambidextrous 5-position Foldable Foregrip Picatinny RB-FGRP170B). The magazines were less than $16 each and the forearm grip was $15. The grip does fit a bit loosely on the rail, but for $15 it very nice.

The olive green version I purchased looked very similar to the one posted in this thread (great photos btw), but the barrel, upper, and lower receiver are olive green and the 5-position butt, the pistol grip, magazine, and front and rear sights are black. (Apparently this version is a limited run of the gun, and it was about $40 cheaper than the version with the raised AR sight/handle, so I was very proud to become its owner.) The indented lettering on the receivers are filled with white paint, so the gun has a very sweet look in my opinion. The added forearm grip was black, so all the attachments match for a very nice look. I added a Bushel red-dot sight that came with my Bushmaster (on which I put a tatical 1x->4x scope) on the M&P (black of course) which worked very well when sighted in at the range.

The gun does disassemble like an AR, and was very easy to clean and reassemble. The magazines are S&W Proprietary, but also very cheap. The magazines also disassembled and reassembled very easily for cleaning. Nice engineering work here S&W. I read reviews about the Colt version of a 15-22, but was dissappointed with that gun when I saw that it was basically an inexpensive (but proven) typical 22lr design internally. Heck one should probably just buy the Mossberg 15-22 for $250 in my opinion if you are considering the Colt version.

I obviously want to run many more rounds though the gun, as I've barely spent more than $5 on ammo so far. However, at this point, I highly recommend you snatch one of these babies up.