AR Virgin Needs Direction

[Big Willy]

Hello all!

I’m 100% new to the AR scene and need some direction from those who have knowledge of the platform. I would like to own an AR but do not know where to start. Way too many options to choose from!

I would like to keep it below $1500 if I can. No need for exotic stuff. I want quality, function and something I can use for years to come.

It will be used for target, hunting and someday tactical shooting. Your thoughts on the following questions would be great. I would like to do it right the first time! :confused:

• Buy AR or build AR? What are the pros and cons? Most bang for the buck?
• Brands to look at?
• Brands to stay away from?
• Piston or non-piston operated?

The forum is very interesting. Good info! I’ll keep reading but… would like to get some direction if you will be so generous.

Thank you in advance for your time and input!

Big Willy

[noob]

[Jerry R]

Welcome to WEVO !!

I will let the resident experts provide advice, just wanted to welcome you aboard.

Having said that .............

Building one is not difficult, will give you tremendous insight into how they work, and how to fix any "issues" you have down the road.

Buying (quality) factory-built gets you someone to call if there are problems, and a warranty.

As you said, there are lots to choose from with a street price within your range. Read up on some of the field reviews, take magazine reviews with a grain of salt - although most would not deliberately mislead you. Do some homework on DI vs. Piston. Visit the manufacturers web sites. Really think through what you want it for as you gather information. Let that lead you into an intelligent decision.

Keep us posted on your thoughts as you work through this. Info you find will be of interest to others that are doing the same thing.

That is what forums like this are all about - sharing knowledge.

[5pins]

1. You will probably save money if you build.
2. Colt, BCM, LMT, S&W. Take a look at the chart. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA
3. Bushmaster, DPMS, and others. Look at the chart.
4. Personally I don’t see a need for a piston for your needs.

[Big Willy]

Jerry R & 5pins,

Thank you for the reply and information! [adore] I really appreciate it! The Spreadsheet is very cool. I’ll do some reading. It seems to have some of the same thoughts as another thread I looked at with regards to the key points to look for. Very cool!

• Any thoughts on how much I could save building?

• Is it true that you can save on tax(s) if you buy parts v. s. a whole gun on-line?

• I’m thinking a 16” barrel. Am I going to lose any accuracy over a longer barrel?

• Has the buying madness slowed any? Will I be stuck waiting for a whole gun? Will I be stuck waiting for parts to build if I go that way? I know… you do not have a crystal ball but… the overall barometer is what I’m looking for.

Thanks again for your time and insight!

Big Willy

[marko]

build one its a lot cheaper and fun..
16" carbine heavy barrel (not chrome lined) about $650
20" rifle heavy barrel free floated (not chrome lined) about $800

[willardcw4]

I just got into ARs a month or two ago... and here is what I did:

I bought a stripped lower and a LPK and put that together. I bought a complete upper (upper receiver and barrel already attached). This way, the only tools I needed was a punch kit for some of the pins on the lower assembly.

My lower: Spikes Tactical
My Upper: LMT (16", 1/7, chrome lined everything)

It is true that there is a tax on complete rifles versus just buying the parts separately. However, from my experience, when you start looking at individual parts, you end up spending MORE money than they comparable complete rifle because you choose more quality components and better accessories... which isn't really a bad thing :)

I think building is the better way to go, but you really need to ask questions and spend a couple weeks doing your research. It also depends on where you buy your components... some deals are better than others.

16" length barrel should be fine... unless you want to shoot 500+ yds... Keep in mind that its a .223, so you probably won't be hitting 1000 yds with this caliber ;) I would suggest getting a chrome-lined barrel.

From my limited experience, most AR manufacturers have upper and lower parts in pretty regularly. If you buy from someone like BCM (bravo company), then you KNOW that if something is in stock, they'll ship it to you, and it will be of great quality. The only thing that is kind of iffy where I live is ammo... but I reload, so it doesn't affect me much :)

There are lots of good stickies around that you should read... just try and get familiar with what makes certain components "good" versus others. i.e. proper bolt carrier staking, m4 feed ramps, etc. Not all of these 'toys' are necessary if you are just using the weapon for a hobby, but it will give you a good idea as to which manufacturers and such to take a closer look at.

Do a LOT of reading, and keep coming back with more questions! :)

[rob_s]

IMHO buy vs. build has a lot to do with your use and your eventual end-state. If simply owning, and occasionally shooting at the static range, is the end-state then there is a different set of criteria than someone looking to shoot thousands of rounds per month. (many times those that start out in the first group wind up in the second, but the first group also outnumbers the second by 100:1 easily)

"Build" is also a misnomer. I am in construction and we build buildings, commercial internet buyers do not "build" ARs, they assemble them. A minor distinction to some but I think it goes to the ease with which one can assemble (to my ear "assemble" sounds easier than "build", YMMV).

Finally, I cannot stress strongly enough that one is far better served by beginning with a simple but high quality firearm, professional training from a qualified instructor, and adapting and making changes as the need arises. All of the lights, lasers, stocks, rail systems, grips, etc. have evolved over time to fill specific needs (or to line the pockets of the inventor). Until you shoot the basic firearm it is virtually impossible to know if those products will benefit YOU for YOUR USE.

Finally there is the question of how comfortable one is with purchasing guns and parts from the internet. Some buyers are adamant that they buy off the shelf from their local shop which limits options and tends to be more expensive. Buyers willing to utilize the internet for purchases (whether parts or whole guns) tend to save a few dollars which can be put towards increasing the quality of the base purchase.

[Ryo]

For a good manufacture, I would go with Noveske, BCM, LMT, Colt.

Building is fun, but I would be sure to get good quality parts.

[TwoSqeeze]

• Buy AR or build AR? What are the pros and cons? Most bang for the buck?
• Brands to look at?
• Brands to stay away from?
• Piston or non-piston operated?

1. There are several great manufactures out there that you can buy from (BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, to name a few). Since this is your first venture into the platform there is something to be said for having a manufacture to call should something go wrong. That being said there is a reason why Rob S. says that we "assemble" these things and not "build" them. If you start with quality parts these rifles go together as smooth as butter. Take this with a grain of salt but I would order an fully assymbaled lower from Grant at G&R Tactical (he has some good prices on the daniel defense lowers), and then I would pop over to Bravo Company and pic up a complete lightwieght 16 inch midlength upper with a DD lightrail.
2. BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, Spikes.
3. I don't feel comfortable putting brands down that I have never owned nor seen malfunction in person. However if you do some digging I am sure that you can find this information.
4. This is a touchy subject for many folks. My own personal opinion is that I see nothing wrong with the DI system (non-piston). Through all my time in the military and so far with my own AR they have functioned flawlessly as long as I have done my part in keeping them lubed. I have no doubt that the piston guns work, I just can't see the benefits of adding more moving parts and wieght to the gun when there is nothing wrong with the way it is operating in the first place.

My last piece of advice is to not listen to me[:D]. I only have one post two posts on this board and have not built credibility. I may know my stuff but it is only because I have learned from reading posts fromthe likes of Rob S., Gotm4 and others on this board. Do a lot of research, validate your sources the best you can and I'm sure that you will be happy with whatever you come up with.

-TS

[TehLlama]

You're on the right track - a solid 16" AR is the best way to get into the game, period!
Pistons only make sense if you're running suppressed, SBR, or really: both.

If you want the maximum adventure up front:

Find a lower reciever of your choice. Spike's, CMMG, Aero, MEGA, BCM, POF - there's too many to list.
Ensure there's a quality LPK in it (Colt, DanielDefense, Stag/CMT, WhiteOakArmament, RockRiverArms).

I'd go with an H buffer in mil-spec receiver extension - you can add a VLTOR or MagPul stock later. Best bang/buck is any stripped lower, and G&R for the LPK/Stock

As for upper - it's hard not to go with a complete BCM upper. Noveske, Rainier, LMT, DanielDefense or an S&W VTAC would also be great choices.
If something else catches your eye, really try for a chrome lined upper with 5.56 chamber, then get a bolt carrier group that is HP and MPi tested (worth the extra money).

As far as rails - if you have the budget up front, get a quality free floated rail, and save yourself the pain of getting one down the road. You'll end up mounting a flashlight at least in all likelihood, shop for that down the line.

Magazines - get a dozen MagPul PMags. Don't look back. Get 1000rds of good brass cased ammunition. PRVI Partizan, PMC, Winchester, American Eagle, DRS, Sellier&Bellot - all good choices.

I'd do all this without buying optics just yet - run quality back up sights (MagPul MBUS, Daniel Defense or LMT fixed, TROY) and you'll be happiest. Down the road, look into the various optic offerings; we'll be happy to help.

[Big Willy]

Wow!!! [wow] I’ve been on forums before and never seen such great response and information! Thank you!

Is this (see link below) a good place to start if I choose to build?

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower% 20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D18%26template%3DP DGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html

If so, what options of those listed on the site would you equip it (lower) with?
See any problems with using this lower for my build if I choose to build?

How about thus upper?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm

See any problems with using this upper for my build if I choose to build?

Thanks again for your input and time!

Big Willy
[noob]

[rob_s]

That lower is a great start. Here's how I'd "make" it.

Price: $126.00
Quantity: 1
LPK: GR Tactical + LMT Components
Receiver Extension: GR Tactical 6 Position Mil-Spec
Castle Nut: GR Tactical
Receiver Plate: Daniel Defense QD Receiver Plate (no swivel)
Buffer Springs: GR Tactical SS
Buffers: H Buffer
Rear Grips: Magpul MOE
Stocks: Magpul MOE
Trigger Guards: Magpul Enhanced
Price with your options: $412

That is MY assembly for the majority of MY needs. What you or someone else needs or wants may be different.

On the upper I would go with the lightweight mid-length (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm) personally but the one you linked to is hammer-forged which is supposed to offer longer barrel life. I'd add to that a BCM BCG for $140, a BCM MOD 04 charging handle for $40, and a set of RRA handguards for $20 (IIRC).

[5pins]

Wow!!! [wow] I’ve been on forums before and never seen such great response and information! Thank you!

Is this (see link below) a good place to start if I choose to build?

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-22000&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower% 20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D18%26template%3DP DGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html

If so, what options of those listed on the site would you equip it (lower) with?
See any problems with using this lower for my build if I choose to build?

How about thus upper?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm

See any problems with using this upper for my build if I choose to build?

Thanks again for your input and time!

Big Willy
[noob]

You should be able to get all of that from G&R and save a little on shipping. I think Grant will assemble the lower for free. All you would need to do is put the upper and lower together and your “build” is finished.
It looks like he is out of the BCM hammer forge mid-length uppers but he has the non-hammer forge in stock.

[Stickman]

BW,


The first thing I would ask is if there were a certain configuration that you were leaning towards? If you go through the tacked thread where people are discussing why they went with the layout they are showing, it should give you a good amount of info.

Once you figure out the basics, and if you want a carbine or rifle. Fixed stock or adjustable, rail or no rail, carbine or midlength gas system, we can start giving you pointers. Without a basic direction, we could be leading you astray.

When you say build, how much are you willing to build? Its pretty easy to purchase a complete upper, and complete lower, and push the two pins together, and that qualifies as a build. You can also assemble a stripped lower, or you could go whole hog and assemble the entire upper yourself as well.

[Big Willy]

Thanks for the replies guys!!!

My budget may have been chopped a bit! The Tax Man has just stuck it up my @$$. Being unemployed is bad enough! Now I owe on Taxes!

I’m going to need to look at best bang for the buck as money is tight.


Stickman,

Thanks for the direction. I looked at that post(s) yesterday.

• I’m looking for a 16” barrel with M4 ramps, chrome bore & chamber. Best of all worlds?

• It looks like a 1:7 Twist rate is best for accuracy?

• M4 Flat Top?

• I believe I want a Carbine?

• The Lower I’m looking at is the Daniel Defense @ G&R Tactical

• M16 Bolt – Daniel Defense @ G&R Tactical

• Free Float front hand guard W/ Rail(s)?

• Adjustable Stock

• Smith Flash Hider

How am I tracking thus far? Any issues you see? Is Daniel Defense good quality? How do these guys rank in the AR food chain?

I was a mechanic in the past. Build is a good question. I can rebuild an engine... will this be more in depth?

It looks like I’m going to need to try and stick around $1000.00 now.

How’s others experience with G&R Tactical? Been calling and get machine. Is this the norm?

Thanks!

Big Willy

[noob]

[willardcw4]

I think you're on the right track for sure... however,

Two comments:

Getting a 1:7 twist barrel means that you won't want to shoot any bullets lighter than 55 grain... I shoot 68 grain hornadies, but 55 or 62 grain bullets would be fine.

Free floating hand guards often cost a lot more money than non-free floating ones... and at least for me, my accuracy isn't good enough (yet) to where if I install a free-floating rail, I'll be able to notice a difference. I'm running the Magpul MOE hand guard, and it's perfect, for me :) You can buy little rail add-ons for like $10 a piece and attach any lights, etc. you want on it.

[5pins]

I have shot bullets as low as 45gr in a 1/7 with no problems. You’re going to have a hard time getting under a thousand with a rail. And don’t forget you are going to need sights.

[Big Willy]

A million Thank you's to all who have provided info and support!

I just jumped into the AR pool! Here is the starting order:

Qty Description Unit Amount
________________________________________
(1 ) Daniel Defense M16 Bolt Carrier Group
$129.00 $129.00
________________________________________
(1 ) Daniel Defense Stripped Lower
$126.00 $126.00
Additional Shipping ($8.00)
LPK is LMT Full LPK $152.00 $152.00
Receiver Extension is GR Tactical 6 Position Mil-Spec $34.00 $34.00
Castle Nut is Colt $10.00 $10.00
Receiver Plate is Daniel Defense QD Receiver Plate (no swivel) $37.00 $37.00
Buffer Springs is GR Tactical SS $5.00 $5.00
Buffers is H Buffer $16.00 $16.00
Rear Grips is Magpul MOE Black $19.00 $19.00
Stocks is Magpul CTR BLK $90.00 $90.00
Trigger Guards is Magpul MOE Black $8.00 $8.00
________________________________________
Subtotal: $626.00
Processing/Handling: $15.00
Total: $641.00

Hope I made the right choice! Thoughts and comments welcome!

Big Willy
[noob]

[5pins]

Good start. Now what upper?

[rob_s]

yep, looks like a good start for sure.

[Big Willy]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Wow Rob… good to see I’m not the only early riser!

I’m struggling on the Upper Assembly. I need to learn more before I jump on that. Things like what is the difference between Government, Mid Length, Carbine… advantages & disadvantages of them.

I’m leaning toward the 1:7 twist unless I get talked out of it. I also am leaning toward the 16” M4 Flat Top chrome lined barrel.
A floating front hand guard is also one of my “like to have’s”.

So many of the upper’s I think I want are out of stock. :mad: I’m hoping I can find something in a reasonable amount of time!

Big Willy
[noob]

[rob_s]

Wow Rob… good to see I’m not the only early riser!

Up by 5 nearly 8 days a week. ;)

[Big Willy]

Ok! I’m looking for an M4 Carbine Upper Assembly and struggling on finding something in stock.

I think I have found one but I need the input of someone much more knowledgeable than I on the topic.

Please give this a view and let me know your thoughts on:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/LMT-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/lmt%2016%20urg.htm

• The product for quality and function
• How it will work with the parts listed in the earlier e-mail? Is it a good mix?
• Is this a good buy? Cash is tight!
• Any other suggestions?

Thank you in advance to all for your time and input!

If it looks good I’m going to buy ASAP as it is in stock.

Big Willy

P. S.

This is a great website! Stickman – you must have a million hours into this site. Thanks!

[5pins]

LMT is a good upper but I think that the BCM’s are better and cheaper. You can also get them with a mid-length gas system.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

[Big Willy]

5pins,

Thank you for the 411!

Tell me more about the "Mid-Length". How does it differ from the Carbine barrel? Advantages? Disadvantages?

Thank you for your time and info!

Big Willy

[willardcw4]

LMT is a good upper but I think that the BCM’s are better and cheaper. You can also get them with a mid-length gas system.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm

I don't necessarily agree that BCM is better than the LMT ;) I got that exact LMT upper and it has been phenomenal... ya ya.. BCM is good too:)

For your first time buy, I'd probably go with a BCM 16" LE upper...

[5pins]

The advantages of the mid-length system is that it is generally considered to be softer shooting and more reliable. It also allows you to reach farther forward with your support hand. There is nothing wrong with the LMT I had one for a short time and it worked fine. However with the BCM you get
1. Tapered front sight pins. LMT uses strait pins.
2. Parkerizing under the FSB.
3. High pressure test and magnetically inspected barrel.

[rob_s]

As I posted on the previous page, the BCM 16" mid-length light-weight (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm) is the upper I would buy. It's not in stock right this second but if you sign up for the email notification they should be in stock again soon.

"Mid-length" means the gas system is approximately 2" longer than the standard "carbine-length" gas system. There is a great explanation of what all that means here (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system).

I GREATLY prefer the "light weight" or so called "pencil" barrels to the M4 or the government profile. The standard BCM mid-length is a government profile which means it is thin under the handguards and then thicker from the front sight base forward. The M4 barrel profile (like the one you posted) is similar except that it has the notch cut into the barrel forward of the front sight base to allow the attachment of the M203 grenade launcher for the military. As you can imagine this makes little sense for non-military users. The lightweight profile barrel with the thinner profile consistently all the way from one end to the other makes the most sense for the vast majority of users.

[5pins]

If I were buying one I would get a light weight also. Grant has some in stock.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26sea rchstart%3D0%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM

[Big Willy]

Thanks guys!

Got the 16" Mid-length and a BCM model 4 changing handle ordered up.

Hand Guard and Sight and I should be close to done! [:D]

Big Willy

[TehLlama]

Wow, it's too bad I missed a day or two - Rob's advice on the G&R order was great (differed from the one I put in last month by only one part), you'll be extremely happy with that.

For the sight - If fixed is what you want, Daniel Defense. For flip -- MagPul MBUS or TROY.
Handguard - the MOE Middy should work, if you decide you need rails and don't want to modify it further, the Omega 9.0 is a definite option. There's others folks will chime in about too.

For a first buy, you've made better choices than most do on their second or third builds.

[Big Willy]

Hi guys!

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to assist me in the selection of parts for my first AR platform gun! Parts should start trickling in today and over the next few days. I can hardly wait (insert – like a kid on Christmas here).

I went with the DD 9” Omega Rail and the BCM (Troy) BUIS.

I have a few more questions for the Guru’s on this website:

• Any suggestions for Rail Panels for the Daniel Defense 9” Omega?

• Head Spacing – The BCM site says the Upper Assembly has been tested, test fired and head spaced. I’m using a Daniel Defense M16 Bolt. Will I need to head space this gun? If so, what is involved?

• Optics – Suggestions??? Aimpoint or Trijicon? I’m familiar with the T-1 Micro, but none of the others. My jury is out on if I want to go with magnification or not. Are any better than others for a guy who is right handed and left eye dominant (I know… sucks to be me)?

• Ammo – What to use and what to stay away from? How does the Bear brand work? What style and weight of bullet should I look for if I’m doing a bulk buy?

Well… I blew by my $1000.00 budget. Like they said in the movie Zombie Land “Nut-up or Shut-up”. So… I decided to “Nut-Up”!

Thanks again for all of your help!

Big Willy
[noob]

[rob_s]

1) I like the Magpul XTM panels when I need a full coverage, and the Ergo ladder panels when I don't. I tend to use XTM on bottom, ladders on side & top.
2) no need to worry about headspacing on an AR. If the bolt closes/seats you're fine.
3) Optics depend on use. Indoor vs. outdoor, distance of engagement, so on and so forth. For red-dots I am an Aimpoint-only fan.
4) I am a big shooter of Wolf ammo, but stick to the 55 and 62 grain versions. Many other shooters refuse to use Wolf and prefer to stick with brass-cased ammo and I don't fault them for it. IIRC most, if not all, of the Bear stuff is steel-cased.

[Big Willy]

Rob,

Thanks for the reply! Good info!

The gun will be used:

• For things that go bump in the night

• Limited indoor – Target, home defense and tactical (training) sometime in the future

• Outdoor use – Target (and tactical training one day) and Hunting

Thanks again!

Big Willy

[Big Willy]

TehLlama,

Are you active military? Just wondering if you are over in the sandbox after reading the bottom part of your message.

Big Willy

[TehLlama]

I am indeed - just got back from A-Stan.
On topic:

For your uses, the T-1 or H-1 should work just fine - if you decide to add magnification, you can with a FTS magnifier - should be fine without it. The 3MOA dot is a great size for use out to 300m, and more practical for target shooting that people give it credit for. I really enjoy TA31's, but the T-1 is much better for close use.
If you're not going to run NVG's, the H-1 is probably the most affordable. As great at LaRue mounts are, I favor the ADM in this application (cheap interchangeable spacer, Co heigh available, QD - weight is the only drawback, DD fixed also good). G&R's package deal is tough to beat.
The ERGO/Magpul rail ladders are a great choice, lightweight and cheap. I'm not the biggest fan of XTM's

[Big Willy]

TehLlama,

Thank you for the reply!

Welcome back! God bless you and yours. On behalf of me and my family, THANK YOU for your service to our country!

I can’t wait to touch my new toy off! I’m still waiting on my Daniel Defense BCG which was accidently left out of my original parts order. I hope it will arrive soon.

How does the FTS Magnifier work with the Red Dot? I’ve been doing some reading and some say the mix (mag + dot) makes the 4 MOA Red Dot grow as well due to it being magnified. Does this (FTS) mount fore or aft of the T-1?

Take care,

Big Willy

[TehLlama]

Has to mount aft, and as such it will also magnify the 3MOA dot of the micro Aimpoint. Not a problem per se, but it is a different feel from the true low power variable scopes. The biggest strength of that setup, especially with the LT FTS mount is that you can just set the magnifier aside when you're not at the range if you feel you don't need it mounted.

[rob_s]

One other thing to keep in mind with the magnifier is that you'll need a rear sight (removable, foldable, whatever) that accommodates it.

I have used a magnifier with my Aimpoint C3, and very briefly with my T-1, and I am of mixed opinion on the thing. I think that a lot of people use them because they expect the magnifier to help them get hits at moderate distance and this is really not what they are useful for. I base this opinion on the number of people I've seen at classes that will run back to their range bag to get a magnifier when they find out we're going out to 100+ yards in training classes vs. the people that I just watched last Tuesday night hit a 1/2 man-sized steel plate at 150 yards with a T-1 with no magnification in reduced lighting conditions.

Given the types of barrels, quality of ammo, and abilities of most shooters, magnification of the optic is not only not needed but is a waste IMHO. I have shot at 200 yards on a 6" steel plate with an un-magnified 4 MOA dot Aimpoint using an 11.5" "pencil" barrel and XM193. According to the internet this should not have been possible. ;)

Where the magnifiers really come into their own is in target ID at distance. I have shot in matches where there were playing cards at distance and you shot the card that matched the one you pulled from the deck. This would be impossible without magnification. I an also think of "tactical" situations where you may need a better view of what is going on downrange (although few that would pertain to the non-LE civilian world).

Like most things I can't stress enough that you should get out and shoot the hell out of the gun and look for weak points. If you find that you're not accomplishing your goals or meeting your needs without a magnifier then add one. But if the choice is between signing up for a quality carbine course and buying the magnifier, the course wins hands down. The skills you'll learn from someone like Randy Cain will far outlive and out-value any singular piece of hardware on the gun.

[Big Willy]

Hi Guys!

Thanks for the information guys!

My situation is I’m looking to identify an Optic for this firearm. Money is tight. I’d like to make one purchase (and not regret it - at the price these things go for).

I have an Aimpoint T-1 Micro on a different firearm. I’m trying to decide on if I should:

• Buy a mount and move the T-1 to the AR – If I use this option, what is the best option for a mount?
• Buy a new Aimpoint or Trijcon - what model if I do so? T-1 thru 4 or ACOG???
• Go with something else on the market – What?

I have mounted a BCM (Troy) Folding BUIS on my new toy. I would like to have the ability to co-witness the BUIS through the optic of choice. Do you see ant issues with doing this?

Thank you for all of your time and input!

Big Willy [:D]

[Rated21R]

I'd pick up an Aimpoint C3 or ML2/ML3. You can generally find them around for good prices and what you or most folks will use them for they work nicely. The Aimpoint Micros are nice, but the prices are higher. Pick up a Bobro Mount, the 150 and you can co-witness with your iron sights. I only suggest Bobro because that is what I have and it is rock solid and the CS that they provide is top notch. Sounds like you are putting togehter quite the build. Save money for ammo/training and then just shoot, shoot, shoot and train as much as you can.

[rob_s]

21R brings up a good point, and I think it's come up before in this thread, and that's training. If money is tight but you have enough for a good 1-4x ($1k give or take) that means you have enough for a C3 in mount ($450 +/-) and a training class ($500+/-). I would vote option two.

I know I tend to beat the training drum pretty loudly, but I see first-hand the consequences of not getting training every fourth Tuesday night of the month at our matches and every first Tuesday night of the month at our drills nights. I try my best to impart what I can to the shooters in the 2.5 hours that I "instruct" them, but a true 3-day training class from a quality instructor will give you much more value than any optic, rail system, stock, etc. Cost:benefits the only thing with a greater ratio is the Gapper. :D

[5pins]

I think you should take a good hard look at this one.
http://swfa.com/Aimpoint-CompM2-30mm-Red-Dot-Sight-Kit-P44111.aspx

[rob_s]

While there is nothing *wrong* with the M2, the C3 is newer technology, comes in 2 or 4 MOA, and can be had with an ADM mount for $2 less than the SWFA price.

[Big Willy]

Hi Guys!

Once again, THANK YOU for all of the great information and advice! I've got my new toy all together (other than the optic). Now I am waiting for my AMMO to arrive and then it's time to head to the range![:D]

Pro's and Con's of 2MOA v. s. 4MOA on the C3? Is the C3 you speak of the COMPC3?

What a great forum! Thanks for bringing me into the AR world!

Big Willy

[willardcw4]

C3 infers the COMP C3. I'd also vote for the COMP C3 if you want an aimpoint red dot(unless you were going with a T-1/H-1 style). It's great for normal civilian use and also is extremely high quality.

2 MOA vs 4 MOA:

The number is the size of the red dot itself. So for a 2 MOA red dot, the size of the dot is smaller than a 4 MOA red dot. The advantage of having a smaller, 2 MOA red dot is that you can shoot a little more precisely at longer distances (note, red dots are non-magnified), since less of the dot is covering the point where you want to be shooting. Also, with a 2 MOA aimpoint, if you want a bigger dot, you can just turn the brightness up and it will "bleed" out a bit (its the wrong word... someone correct me) so the dot is a bit bigger.

My personal opinion is the 2 MOA, since I can shoot more accurate groups at 350 yds :)

Since you already know what the T-1 is like in regards to size, just be sure you realize that the other aimpoint red dots are fairly bigger in length. I was surprised when I first saw one because my stupidity trained me to think all red dots are the size of the T-1 or Vortex SPARC... which is obviously not the case.

If you arn't going to be shooting long range, I'd slap the T-1 on there... it's a really convenient optic. You can do a lower 1/3 co-witness and say goodbye to your BUIS! ;) LaRue makes really amazing quick disconnect mounts (QD), but they are pricey... however, I think spending a bit of money to get a good quality mount for a good quality optic is a must have.

[TehLlama]

Indeed, the 2MOA is very flexible at long range, and with the brightness high enough it's no harder to acquire than the 4MOA dot up close for most folks. For the Comp3, the LaRue mount can't be beat. Great advice above.

The H-1 also makes a ton of sense for non-NV users, and the ADM mount is a great option as well. That pairing from G&R Tac is pretty affordable, and the ADM is available in absolute cowitness and lower 1/3 - this is what I run for all my non-magnified optics.

[Creeky73]

This has probably been said, but I didn't read every page of posts here, so forgive me if I am repeating. I made the mistake of buying my first AR before doing much research (something I never do) and while I am not actually dissatisfied with my first purchase, I probably would have gone a different route had I found this forum before my gun found me. After discovering the wealth of cool parts available for AR's, I decided to build a second rifle with the parts that I wanted, and learn how to build/fix them in the process. Be forewarned, I believe that most people who recommend building as a way to save money probably already had a lot of the tools necessary to do this. If you don't already have the tools, figure $200-300 minimum on the tools to put your build together. A good torque wrench for barrel installation will run you 100 bones by itself. Then also consider that you sometimes run into some fitting issues. For instance, I bought a Tactical Innovations lower and a Sun Devil uppper. Both expensive parts. And they do not fit together well at all. Massive gap between the two pieces, and I am definitely not happy about it. There is a very, very slight gap between the two halves of my factory-built AR, but not noticeable unless you look really really hard. You can see the gap between the two high-end pieces even if you aren't looking for it. But these things will happen when buying parts from several different companies. My advice would be, if you have the cash to burn and seriously want to learn your weapon inside and out, build it. If you would rather buy a gun and leave it alone, do that. I would have to seriously question the value in buying all these tools if you do not intend to be working on/building AR's on a regular basis. Fact is, once I get this thing together, these tools are going to sit in a toolbox and collect dust, for the most part. I would also observe that if you are planning on building something really high-end, there is probably more value in getting the tools and getting exactly the parts you want. If you have set yourself a budget of around $1500 or so, I would just buy a Daniel Defense or something similar and be done with it.

[willardcw4]

The H-1 also makes a ton of sense for non-NV users, and the ADM mount is a great option as well. That pairing from G&R Tac is pretty affordable, and the ADM is available in absolute cowitness and lower 1/3 - this is what I run for all my non-magnified optics.

Botach tactial also has a pretty good deal for the H-1 with a KZ mount... but from what I've been reading Botach is pretty hit or miss when it comes to customer satisfaction, although the 10-15% off coupon codes really make me want to check them out :)

I agree with TehLlama about the H-1 for non-NV users and those that don't need to take their optic under water past ~30 ft and don't want any magnification... it is a really ergonomically friendly, light weight optic.

But like I said before, if you have that T-1 on another gun and don't mind throwing that on your AR, then that is equivalent to the H-1 option... just buy a nice mount for it and you're set.

[Army Chief]

The rule of thumb for Botach is (a) call ahead to verify the item is in stock, (b) don't be in a hurry, and (c) be willing to deal with some potential angst with respect to exact order fulfillment. Botach has many customers, significantly fewer repeat customers, and perhaps a handful of true fans, but if you're a price-motivated shopper (to the exclusion of all else), then you can generally come out ahead.

Over time, most seasoned shooters/builders will choose to spend a bit more and deal with a reputable specialty vendor (including most of the businesses that you see here as site sponsors) to minimize the long-term frustration, but these are quite honestly lessons that most of us will still have to learn through hard first-hand experience.

AC

[5pins]

While there is nothing *wrong* with the M2, the C3 is newer technology, comes in 2 or 4 MOA, and can be had with an ADM mount for $2 less than the SWFA price.

Where?