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austin12gauge
21 January 2008, 20:02
Hello all! I am a newb here so I thought I should introduce myself. I am Austin in Texas and have an affinity for tactical shotguns hence the screen name. I post under this same screen name mainly in the Tactical Group at ShotgunWorld (hello to M24shooter) and some at Rimfire Central.

I have owned and used guns for over 50 years including small game hunting and casual target shooting with both rim-fire and center-fire pistol and rifle. I have also shot skeet and trap extensively. I am not LEO or active military, but did serve in the Infantry from 66 to 72, which gives you a pretty good idea of my generation. All that said, let me ask a question, please.

I believe it is time for me to add a good quality, reliable, factory-built AR15 to my collection of pistols, rifles and SGs - all shooters, no safe queens. It will be mainly used for casual target use and perhaps some classes, but will also be used in case of a SHTF situation. And, it will most likely be my only AR. I was all set to buy a S&W M&P 15T over the weekend but while doing some final research on this site and others I discovered the Noveske N4 Low Pro.

I read the manufacturers' specs on the two and recognize the N4 is the superior build am not experienced enough to judge the difference in price relative to the differences in build. And I have read the threads about the N4 here and on M4Carbine, and, so far, it seems to get nothing but rave reviews. BTW, the reviews and pictures here have been excellent and very helpful to me. Thank you Stickman, Eric, and others.

Before you answer, please let me put my question in the proper context - I can buy a new 15T locally for $1,175, minus the $100 S&W rebate to net out at a very attractive $1,075. The best price I am seeing so far on the N4 is $1,900. I figure the sales tax vs the shipping and FFL transfer is a wash. So, in your opinion, are the N4 Low Pro build differences really worth the $825 price difference?

I know I am making a big leap from the 15T to the N4, and some will tell me to go with Colt or LMT rifles instead. But it seems to me that if I configure a Colt or LMT the same as the N4 Lo Pro (flat top, rails and folding F&R BUIS) I will be very near the N4 price anyway, at least I think so.

Please, I already know I am the one to make the final determination, and I will. But what I am looking for is if you think the price difference between the 15T and N4 is worth the build difference and why, which will be based on much more experience and knowledge of the AR than my own. Thanks for your input!

TigerStripe
21 January 2008, 20:35
I'm not an expert like most of my friends here, but I'll give you my opinion on each. I believe that since you served in infantry from '66 to '72 you know what a difference a reliable rifle can be. Here is my opinion;

If I were a first time buyer of an AR and I wanted all the bells and whistles like the rail, the folding sights for a reasonable price I would buy an S&W M&P15T. Unless you got everything for the absolute cheapest price, there is no way you could build the equivalent of an M&P15T at that price. The M&P has a 1:9 twist so, most likely bullets with a weight over 69 grains won't be stablized and accurate. If you are going to be using ammo between 40 to 69 grains the M&P will work.

If I were looking for a great AR that would last the rest of my life, stabilize any round I put into the chamber and had the same general layout of the M&P15T, I'd likely get an N4. The barrel life of the N4 will be at least twice the length of the M&P15T.

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. Is it more likely to be used on a range or in something like combat? Do you need something that lasts that long? Could you use the extra money for ammo, mags, a light, a different pistol grip or stock? Weigh those out in your head (or on paper) and there's your answer. Whichever will get the job you need done done, that's it.

Good luck with whatever you choose,

TS

And thank you for your service. http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/32.gif

Stickman
22 January 2008, 10:28
Austin,

Before getting into everything else, I would first ask how set you were on getting a weapon that did not have a standard front sight base. Would a standard carbine with a rail work for you, or are you locked into an extended rail with a folding front sight?

austin12gauge
22 January 2008, 10:44
Stickman, thanks for your reply. TigerStripe too.

Stick, the picture of the N4 in Eric's review is pretty much what I envision - extended rail system with VFG, F&R folding BUIS, and a high quality optic. But I am curious as to where you might be going with your question. I am open to suggestions.

Tiger, you bring up a good point about the 1:9 twist on the 15T. I should probably stick with a 1:7, which pushes me more toward the N4. And I would hope at my age that whatever I had never saw combat. And even the 15T would probably out live me. Ha!

Stickman
22 January 2008, 11:26
A standard Front Sight Base (FSB) is drilled and pinned in place, however, the low profile gas blocks that replace them usually are not. Noveske Rifleworks pins all their gas blocks, but the S&W does not.

A pinned gas block or FSB will never come loose, one that is not pinned, you hope will never come loose.


Both carbines will work, but the Noveske is a more serious weapon. If I had to pick up a weapon (out of those 2 choices), and use it for duty, I would have no hesitation using the Noveske. If I was going to carry the S&W, I would go over it and fire it quite a bit before I would determine its reliability.

The level of QC that goes into Noveske weapons makes it an unfair comparison to S&W.

m24shooter
22 January 2008, 16:17
Hey Austin, good to see you here.
The Noveske is going to be at least an order of magnitude above the S&W. Lots of people have them, and like them, and don't have issues with them.
I guess it would depend on how hard you want to push the rifle, what you are going to need it to do, and what level of quality you are comfortable with.
You say that it is going to be a shooter, and that you intend on taking a class. The Noveske is going to have a better chance of making it through a class without issue. That will let you focus more on the instruction and less on clearing malfs. It will come to you ready to go, and you shouldn't have any problems with it. The Noveske stuff I've seen is great. I've seen some S&Ws that were not so great.
As for outfitting the other carbines with similar features you need to also factor in time out of your hands, shipping/tax on them, and cost to have someone install them if you don't have the right tools yourself. A good rail alone is going to run you $200-300 anyway. Sights are going to be another $300 or more, and you'd probably want to make some other additions for better reliability, so it would at best be a wash.
If you can do the Noveske, I'd drop the hammer on that. Pick up some good mags and a case or two of ammo and put a good optic and light on it.

austin12gauge
22 January 2008, 19:13
Hey Austin, good to see you here.
Thanks! I see Zombie is here also. And thanks for your reply to my question. Without a doubt in my mind, the N4 is a superior build. I am simply having trouble stepping up to the additional $825 in cost over the 15T, which would buy a very nice optic and ammo for practice. Heck, it would almost buy another AR! But I hear what you are saying about the N4.

My usual MO is to put a toe in the water, and after buying 3 or 4 different whatevers I end up buying what I really wanted in the first place. Given my history with other things, it would probably less money in the long run to just buy the N4 first.

jeffy
22 January 2008, 19:26
Not to throw a wrench into the gears, but have you looked at LMT? A bit less then the Noveske but still top shelf.

m24shooter
22 January 2008, 19:28
Thanks! I see Zombie is here also. And thanks for your reply to my question.

No prob. It's always good to have a variety of members, and if you are taking a jump into the realm of the AR, I'm glad to help where I can.


Without a doubt in my mind, the N4 is a superior build. I am simply having trouble stepping up to the additional $825 in cost over the 15T, which would buy a very nice optic and ammo for practice. Heck, it would almost buy another AR! But I hear what you are saying about the N4.

That's something you'll have to weigh and decide on. For limited use, you might do just fine with the S&W, and the money saved could go to a lot of other items.
On the other hand, you can be almost certain the N4 will do what you need and more.
I worked on an S&W that belonged to a retired Dallas SWAT guy. He'd had no problems with it. It was rather funky and had seen some serious use since the last PMCS. So the S&W can take some punishment.


My usual MO is to put a toe in the water, and after buying 3 or 4 different whatevers I end up buying what I really wanted in the first place. Given my history with other things, it would probably less money in the long run to just buy the N4 first.

It happens. With the Noveske, you'd be at the top from the start. You would have pretty much everything you could need already on the carbine, and there really wouldn't be a learning curve in terms of buying a sub-standard rail or sight.

m24shooter
22 January 2008, 19:29
Not to throw a wrench into the gears, but have you looked at LMT? A bit less then the Noveske but still top shelf.
Jeff's right. The LMT is a good rifle as well if you are open to more than just the two you list, and will take a beating with the best of them.

austin12gauge
23 January 2008, 06:21
Not to throw a wrench into the gears, but have you looked at LMT? A bit less then the Noveske but still top shelf.
Thanks, and yes, I have considered both Colt and LMT. But it seems to me that after I configure either of them the way I want them I will be at or very near the N4 price anyway, so I might as well buy the N4 if I can bring myself to spent that much.

Stickman
23 January 2008, 10:22
Austin,



Looking at carbines is like looking at new cars, its very easy to keep going up in price a little at a time. Before you know it, the model you started out wanting is no where near the price you were thinking of paying.

There are other options to consider, especially if price is an object. Here are a few things I would consider.

1. Buy the upper one month, and the lower whenever the extra money came in. This allows you to spread the purchase price out.

2. Consider making the basic purchase, then upgrading with a rail like the DD Omega, which is high quality, but requires no special skills or tools to modify.



Noveske, LMT, and Colt are all very high quality, and while the Noveske barrel will outlast the others, they will all last a very long time. You won't go wrong with any of them.

jeffy
23 January 2008, 13:05
So, basically you want a 14.5(pinned) or 16" barrel with a 10" FF handguard and Troy BUIS and under $1895.

I agree that buying a upper and lower separate will save you some money. If you build the lower you can save even more. Although instead of having a rifle from one mfg. you end up with a mutt. Just looking at uppers and the N4 Low-Pro is around $1235 (Rainer Arms). If you went with a LMT Defender 2000 complete lower, your total would be $1565, a savings of $330. You might be able to squeeze out more if you built the lower from a parts kit as well.

Go with a different upper and the price will surely drop. You'd need a low-profile gas block and then you'd be able to use a 10" FF handguard. Although a LMT 14.5" Carbine upper with a Omega is $685. You'd need to get a FH that would make it 16" OAL and pin it. (YHM $23+Pin/Weld $45) Then add a M16/FA Bolt Carrier Group for $129 and you'd something like this for under $1300 and much nicer then a M&P15T. I might be bias though, I have that exact same upper. :P

http://www.rainierarms.com/img/shop/product/b676050049824240fe6c94438b40fc3c.jpg

TigerStripe
23 January 2008, 16:17
MI rails are a very good rail for the cost. You could add one of those to an LMT upper with no special skills or tools as well. The DD Omega is sweet though... If you want something more expensive like the N4, do as suggested above. Buy the upper and then add a lower and then the LPK, stock, and so on... The S&W still isn't a bad rifle, if that's what you can afford.


TS

12131
23 January 2008, 18:41
All great advices. I would say, if it were me in your shoe, I'd get the best, the N4, since as you said, it will likely be your only AR (but, we all know the BRD[:D]).
Or, get the N4 Basic at cheaper than the Lo Pro, but still made by one of the best.

TigerStripe
23 January 2008, 23:08
All great advices. I would say, if it were me in your shoe, I'd get the best, the N4, since as you said, it will likely be your only AR (but, we all know the BRD[:D]).
Or, get the N4 Basic at cheaper than the Lo Pro, but still made by one of the best.

Yeah, he could buy the Basic and later he could cut down his front sight base and add a 10" rail... He'd have the same thing...


TS

John Hwang
24 January 2008, 12:02
Another consideration is that the M&P rifles are mass produced. When any rifle is mass produced, you will have quality control issues.

As far as set screws coming lose on low profile gas blocks, it's a non-concern. If installed properly with locktite, it will never come lose. I've had more difficulty taking off properly installed gas blocks (with setscrews) than I have with some FSB. Like most things, it's more about assembly than anything else.

austin12gauge
24 January 2008, 13:51
Great news today! The .gov is going to help me buy whichever rifle I finally choose with a tax rebate check. Yippee!

Thanks for all the great advice guys, I really appreciate it. Right now I am swimming in information overload and need to sort everything out. I am heading down to SA for awhile to do some kayaking and get the heck out of this central Texas cedar pollen. You'd have to live here to understand. Hopefully I will the rifle figured out by the time I get back. Thanks again!

TigerStripe
24 January 2008, 16:20
Great news today! The .gov is going to help me buy whichever rifle I finally choose with a tax rebate check. Yippee!

Thanks for all the great advice guys, I really appreciate it. Right now I am swimming in information overload and need to sort everything out. I am heading down to SA for awhile to do some kayaking and get the heck out of this central Texas cedar pollen. You'd have to live here to understand. Hopefully I will the rifle figured out by the time I get back. Thanks again!

I'll gladly exchange SouthEastTX for Central Texas... You've got a lot of good info to go through (not any of it mine)...


TS

m24shooter
24 January 2008, 17:31
Great news today! The .gov is going to help me buy whichever rifle I finally choose with a tax rebate check. Yippee!

Thanks for all the great advice guys, I really appreciate it. Right now I am swimming in information overload and need to sort everything out. I am heading down to SA for awhile to do some kayaking and get the heck out of this central Texas cedar pollen. You'd have to live here to understand. Hopefully I will the rifle figured out by the time I get back. Thanks again!
Have a good time pard. I met my wife when I was at school at UT/SWT and I proposed to her on the side of a mountain outside of Wimberly. I will always love central Texas. Up here in the north we're waiting for the Big Chill. How bad it is will determine if I get to do a transport tomorrow morning or if I will be on hold for Monday.
I'm thinking that I might use some of my Fed check for a pair of lowers for my kids.