AR Accuracy Expectations

[BamaMike]

I have read many of the postings here and there as no shortage of good advice, and for that I am more appreciative than many here will ever know (just simply for sharing). Like many, I have probably bought too much gun for the moment but always embraced the philosophy to buy more and “grow into it.” I’m not sure that is serving me well, but I do like what I have and I suppose there is a lot that can be said for liking what you drive. To carry the analogy further – now I need to get more experience behind the wheel. But first, here is my current setup:

-Spike's Upper M4 flat top upper receiver w/Spike's Tactical Billet charging handle
-Spike's Lower w/Nickel Boron coated Trigger, Hammer, and Disconnector
-Daniel Defense 16" Barrel with Mid-length gas system (1:7)
-Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite rail w/ Micro gas block
-Phantom 52C Flash Hider.
-KNS Gen II Mod II Anti-Rotation trigger and hammer pins.
-ST-T2 Tungsten Heavy buffer.
-Magpul ACS stock
-Magpul MOE Grip.
-Front (HK style) and Rear Troy BUIS.

The gun was from a group buy on AR-15.com and I got some extras for buying their 2009 SEBR overstock, which apparently was a victim of today’s beleaguered economy. It is a nice gun and functions flawlessly. I have spent some time and several hundred rounds shooting with just the BUIS and can honestly say I hate battle rifle sights. I applaud those of you that can shoot beyond 100 yards accurately. I can hit a man sized target fine; just do not feel comfortable sharing any paper targets that I punch holes in. It is funny how I can hit bricks and other trash out on the berm, but paper seems to be elusive, at least for consistent shot placement. I am using Federal 55 gr ammo and though it is not match ammo, it probably is better than some of the other surplus stuff out there.

Recently I purchased a Weaver Grand Slam Tactical 3-10X scope to practice more precision type shooting and while my apparent accuracy improved, my shot placement (on paper) seems relatively as sporadic. Now, it (my accuracy) is certainly better than my shots before the scope but I am not as happy with the results as I had hoped for. Of course I will continue to practice and expect that I will get better as I continue to gain experience but I suppose I must have to ask those of you with much more experience – is this (inconsistent grouping (more than an 2" @ 100yds)) commonly an issue with ammunition, the shooter, gun, or am I just expecting too much from all of the above.

I am really not discouraged as it may sound, and I am not so egotistical to blame everything else as my suspicions are that it really is me that is driving the shots. I would just hate to be blaming myself just to find out that an average barrel shooting surplus ammo shoots, well… …average. Can anyone relate? LOL

- Mike

[Stickman]

2" groups with off the shelf generic ammo isn't bad at all. Unless you are playing around with different ammo to see what your weapon prefers, I think you are doing fine.

Buy a few different boxes of ammo and see how your groups do.



ETA- Are you shooting off a bipod, sandbag, or using another way to brace? Are you using a sling to wrap?

[Paulo_Santos]

Generally speaking, if you can get 10 rounds in a 1.5" (1.5 MOA) at 100 yards, you are doing great, unless you are benchrest shooting.
My LMT shoots the M193 2 MOA at 100 yards.

[BamaMike]

Stick/Paul, I was shooting from a bench on a less than ideal shooting bag (too low), but regardless - the rifle was sufficiently braced. I am sure technique has something to do with it as well as some other variables. I see some with bolt guns using a "lead sled" and wonder how well that would work out. Of course, using one would only tell me if the rifle or ammo was the weak link and really do nothing for accuracy from the practical shooting perspective. It is comforting to realize that my accuracy issues may be two fold (the platform and I), but sobering to think that the weapon is that "loose." Nevertheless, it is what it is - a battle weapon and not a precision shooter. I intend to do as you said Stick and try to find the load my barrel "likes" and already have some PMC 62 grain SS109 I have yet to try. I do appreciate the input and imagine this conversation may help some fellow shooters who may be entertaining the same questions. No matter what, I love the rifle and will do whatever it takes to maximize my effectiveness to use it properly.

- Mike

[henpecked]

hello there,
Ive seen a few guys with the same issues and for what its worth heres my 2 cents.

3 lb trigger will help
less coffee in the morning
breathing..... you want to pull that trigger with no air in your lungs take several deep breathes and let your heart rate slow
comfortable shooting platform
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/henpecked1/Wyoming/prairedog1Small.jpg

Steve

[Wondering Beard]

Being rather new to ARs and rifle shooting in general, I'll let the real experts talk about what your rifle is capable of but I was struck but your statement that you had no problem "hitting bricks and other trash out on the berm" but that paper was giving you trouble.

I wonder if the problem is perhaps that when faced with paper you psych yourself out.

There are always certain targets that, for whatever reason, we hate, even fear sometimes, because we convinced ourselves that we can't do well with them. Maybe it's because we set the bar too high (e.g. looking at really tight groups from other shooters and thinking that it's what's expected) or maybe because we underestimate our own capabilites, but subconsciouly we are sufficiently affected that we make mistakes that don't occur shooting at any other targets.

I've seen it many times in various classes and I'll admit that while I normally have few problems hitting small targets (with a pistol at pistol ranges) like an ear on a photo target, when it comes to paper with scoring rings, I just don't do as well. My solution to this problem has been to try and forget everything but my front sight and trigger and rework the fundamentals (sometimes a couple of dry fire runs calm me enough).

I have no idea if you actually are psyching yourself out or not, since I do not know you; but if it at all resonates with you, take a little break before going to paper targets, a few really deep breaths before you settle in with your rifle and forget about the paper while just focusing on the fundamentals and you are likely to find yourself making groups that you didn't know you could.

Of course, I could just as easily be totally wrong.

P.S. 2"+ groups at 100 yards are very nice in my book.

[BamaMike]

hello there,
Ive seen a few guys with the same issues and for what its worth heres my 2 cents.

3 lb trigger will help
less coffee in the morning
breathing..... you want to pull that trigger with no air in your lungs take several deep breathes and let your heart rate slow
comfortable shooting platform
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/henpecked1/Wyoming/prairedog1Small.jpg

Steve

Good tips... ...but no coffee? Are you nutz??? [BD]

[BamaMike]

Being rather new to ARs and rifle shooting in general, I'll let the real experts talk about what your rifle is capable of but I was struck but your statement that you had no problem "hitting bricks and other trash out on the berm" but that paper was giving you trouble.

I wonder if the problem is perhaps that when faced with paper you psych yourself out.

There are always certain targets that, for whatever reason, we hate, even fear sometimes, because we convinced ourselves that we can't do well with them. Maybe it's because we set the bar too high (e.g. looking at really tight groups from other shooters and thinking that it's what's expected) or maybe because we underestimate our own capabilites, but subconsciouly we are sufficiently affected that we make mistakes that don't occur shooting at any other targets.

I've seen it many times in various classes and I'll admit that while I normally have few problems hitting small targets (with a pistol at pistol ranges) like an ear on a photo target, when it comes to paper with scoring rings, I just don't do as well. My solution to this problem has been to try and forget everything but my front sight and trigger and rework the fundamentals (sometimes a couple of dry fire runs calm me enough).

I have no idea if you actually are psyching yourself out or not, since I do not know you; but if it at all resonates with you, take a little break before going to paper targets, a few really deep breaths before you settle in with your rifle and forget about the paper while just focusing on the fundamentals and you are likely to find yourself making groups that you didn't know you could.

Of course, I could just as easily be totally wrong.

P.S. 2"+ groups at 100 yards are very nice in my book.

No way, you are totally wrong… [:D]

Just kidding. Truth is, I have thought about that. With BUIS I totally agree with your thinking, but feel less sure with a scope; nevertheless, it is certainly within the realm of possibility as I can see other signs where I am more relaxed (and accurate) “plinking.” The thought has some merit, but before I can give it credence I need to rule out other more physical explanations (hence my question to the expected accuracy of the platform).

It would make an excellent study and I would be willing to be a subject for a series of tests to determine if this could be an issue for today’s fighting men (and women). Maybe the current administration would provide a stimulus package to WEVO funding such a series of tests? Hmmm… Could take years and countless $$$ [pop]

- Mike

[Paulo_Santos]

Mike, also try different positions. I prefer to shoot on the ground in the prone position with a bipod or bag in the front and a rest in the rear. I can drive the AR much better from the prone position. Try different positions and see what works best for you. See if you can get a box of some good ammo such as Black Hills 68/69/75/77 GR ammo or the Hornady TAP ammo and see how accurate it is. This way you can rule out the ammo as being the problem. And while some guys have gotten decent results out of the cheap plinking ammo, generally, you get what you pay for.

[BamaMike]

Mike, also try different positions. I prefer to shoot on the ground in the prone position with a bipod or bag in the front and a rest in the rear. I can drive the AR much better from the prone position. Try different positions and see what works best for you. See if you can get a box of some good ammo such as Black Hills 68/69/75/77 GR ammo or the Hornady TAP ammo and see how accurate it is. This way you can rule out the ammo as being the problem. And while some guys have gotten decent results out of the cheap plinking ammo, generally, you get what you pay for.

Thanks Paul! All good suggestions especially the different positions. Believe it or not this is one thing I did not think of even though it is one of the fundamentals I remember when I learned to shoot. talk about getting stuck in the proverbial rut of old age... :)

The ammo thing is a good idea and I meant to ask you folks what is a good batch to test with and you beat me to the punch (thank you). I am saving my brass and hope to buy myself a reloading outfit (Dillon 550 or 650, maybe) when funds allow and expect to pick some more brains about that in the near future. Fun hobby and great bunch of smart folk here to help me spend what I don't have (LOL)...

- Mike

[Paulo_Santos]

Thanks Paul! All good suggestions especially the different positions. Believe it or not this is one thing I did not think of even though it is one of the fundamentals I remember when I learned to shoot. talk about getting stuck in the proverbial rut of old age... :)

The ammo thing is a good idea and I meant to ask you folks what is a good batch to test with and you beat me to the punch (thank you). I am saving my brass and hope to buy myself a reloading outfit (Dillon 550 or 650, maybe) when funds allow and expect to pick some more brains about that in the near future. Fun hobby and great bunch of smart folk here to help me spend what I don't have (LOL)...

- Mike

For reloading I highly recommend getting the Hornady 55 GR FMJ/BT 6K pack, which costs around $440 for 6,000 bullets ($8 per 100 bullets). I load them up with Benchmark or H4895 and I am getting around 1.25 MOA with those 55 GR FMJ Bullets. Even TAC, Varget, and X-Terminator work well with them. Very cheap and accurate.

Also when shooting with irons, I just center the target on the front sight post. I like to come up on the target, while some others like to come down. Whatever works for you. Start with a large target like a mansize "Q" target if you can and once you are comfortable, move on to smaller targets. As long as I can hit the "Q" size targets with irons I'm happy.

[Wondering Beard]

The thought has some merit, but before I can give it credence I need to rule out other more physical explanations (hence my question to the expected accuracy of the platform).

Makes perfect sense


It would make an excellent study and I would be willing to be a subject for a series of tests to determine if this could be an issue for today’s fighting men (and women). Maybe the current administration would provide a stimulus package to WEVO funding such a series of tests? Hmmm… Could take years and countless $$$ [pop]

- Mike

Now this is pork I favor [:D]

[henpecked]

This fellow had the gun but not the position
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/henpecked1/Wyoming/frankSmall.jpg
Tried and tried to get him to relax, wasnt till his back was hurting that he listened
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/henpecked1/Wyoming/frank1Small.jpg

Group tightened up and he was killing praire dogs............

Even had him leaning up against his quad for stability



Scenery shot from one of are coyote trips
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p319/henpecked1/Wyoming/bobandnickscoyoteSmall.jpg

Steve

[BamaMike]

For reloading I highly recommend getting the Hornady 55 GR FMJ/BT 6K pack, which costs around $440 for 6,000 bullets ($8 per 100 bullets). I load them up with Benchmark or H4895 and I am getting around 1.25 MOA with those 55 GR FMJ Bullets. Even TAC, Varget, and X-Terminator work well with them. Very cheap and accurate.

Also when shooting with irons, I just center the target on the front sight post. I like to come up on the target, while some others like to come down. Whatever works for you. Start with a large target like a mansize "Q" target if you can and once you are comfortable, move on to smaller targets. As long as I can hit the "Q" size targets with irons I'm happy.

Thanks for the tips (all of them). Not sure when I will go back to playing with irons again, but I was "walking" a brick at the 75 yard line one day, so I didn't feel too bad about using irons. But again, I would never show my target here (LOL).

Reloading is something I am really wanting to get into and it will be my first real plunge into this renewed hobby (shooting). I sealed the deal somewhat when I bought 5k small rifle primers (Federal) a few months back when a local gun shop had a big sale going on. A federal rep told me that it was way cheaper at the sale than online so I got them. Cant recall the price now but I did look it up and it was a good deal. I do remember liking the idea that I was comiting myself by buying them (I can be such a kid sometimes...). I will look into those Hornady's for sure (and if some good deals surface let me know as I need to get some stock... well, in stock). Thanks again!

- Mike

[rob_s]

The best groups I've been able to get out of a chrome-lined "milspec" barrel was 0.50" average at 50 yards using Black Hills 77 gr HP and a 9x scope. Bipod on the front, sandbag under the rear. Rifle in question was a BCM RECCE 14 which is a 14.5" barrel with a Troy TRX free-float rail.

In my experience XM193 is good for 2" groups at 100 in chrome-lined barrels. Some folks report getting tighter groups down to 1.25" or so but I have not found this in the guns I've tried it with.

While the AR has certainly come a long way, and can be made to shoot extremely accurately with the right ammo, barrel, and shooter, if your intent for the gun is to shoot gnat's-ass groups I think you bought the wrong one. The setup you describe may be capable of the kind of groups I got with the BCM, but I don't frankly know why you'd bother worrying about it. If your intent is to sit in a static position and try to make holes as closely as possible to one another I think there are probably better choices out there, if you stick with the AR at all.

[BamaMike]

The best groups I've been able to get out of a chrome-lined "milspec" barrel was 0.50" average at 50 yards using Black Hills 77 gr HP and a 9x scope. Bipod on the front, sandbag under the rear. Rifle in question was a BCM RECCE 14 which is a 14.5" barrel with a Troy TRX free-float rail.

In my experience XM193 is good for 2" groups at 100 in chrome-lined barrels. Some folks report getting tighter groups down to 1.25" or so but I have not found this in the guns I've tried it with.

While the AR has certainly come a long way, and can be made to shoot extremely accurately with the right ammo, barrel, and shooter, if your intent for the gun is to shoot gnat's-ass groups I think you bought the wrong one. The setup you describe may be capable of the kind of groups I got with the BCM, but I don't frankly know why you'd bother worrying about it. If your intent is to sit in a static position and try to make holes as closely as possible to one another I think there are probably better choices out there, if you stick with the AR at all.

Thanks for the input Rob. I do understand what you are saying and also the limitations of the platform. Like everyone else, well at least some, I am just trying to hit the target. Of course I would like my rifle to be capable of making a doughnut out of a quarter on the moon, but that would be as unrealistic as the analogy. On the other hand I hear feats claimed where people make 500m shots with an iron sights using milspec ammo. Then I look at my target at 100 yds. and just shake my head in shame. Again, not really (not shame), but I do wonder why my weapon seems to send rounds all over the place and question if something is wrong. I also know that these claims are the exception (I think) to the rule, but I would like to improve the score, so to speak.

Again, I’m not whining about the accuracy of the weapon, ammo, myself, or the fairness of life in general; I am just soliciting input from those of you with much more experience behind the weapon. My round count is around 900, so I am a real greenhorn when it comes to this and I know it. I will hopefully laugh at this post when I am down the road (experience wise) but I honestly hope that this kind of discussion can also help someone who is asking the same kind of questions.

From what you state and the other opinions heard here, I have concluded that my accuracy is attributable to the ability of the gun, ammo, and the shooter. All of them can be improved to some degree but there is no magic answer. I suppose I was looking for something that was not there and you can attribute it to hearing all those claiming they have “tack drivers.” I am starting to hate that term… LOL!

Thanks for the comments; I really do appreciate the input.

-Mike

[rob_s]

Most shooters, like most fisherman, golfers, etc., are liars. Not necessarily maliciously or even consciously. Ask a hunter the distance to his last kill and he'll tell you "X yards". Ask his guide and he'll tell you "x/2 yards". ;) I have heard some crazy claims out of people re: their gun/ammo/shooting ability only to find it fall far short on the range (this applies to both accuracy and speed, BTW).

I think a lot of guys go through something like this.
They buy an AR. They're not really sure why other than "I always wanted one". Maybe they go on a forum and post "which AR should I buy" but with zero qualifiers and so everyone suggests an M4. The thing is, if you want to shoot dimes at 200 yards, the M4 ain't the right tool for it. The other thing is, many guys have no idea what they want to do with the gun, and even if someone replies to their query with "what do you want to do with it and how much do you want to spend?" they get vapor-locked and respond back with something like "uhhh, shoot stuff?"

so then the guy gets his gun, goes out and shoots it, and how he feels about it is going to depend entirely on what kind of shooting he's now doing and his prior frame of reference. I came to the AR from handguns, so for me the trigger was a dream, the accuracy was unbelievable, the speed at which I could shoot was amazing, etc. A guy with a bolt-action rifle and hunting background may hate the trigger and believe the gun to be inaccurate. An IPSC grandmaster may find it agonizingly slow compared to his race gun. etc. If the IPSC guy buys a 24" stainless bull barrel and then tries to run & gun at short range he's likely further hampering his use. If the hunter/benchrest guy buys a 16" M4 he's probably not maximizing the platform's potential.

The modularity of the AR is one of it's greatest strengths, but it also makes choices when you're starting out extremely difficult. You CAN buy an AR, even a relatively short/compact one, that will shoot sub-1 MOA with good ammo and a good shooter. The M4 isn't it, generally speaking, but it's a smoking fighting gun, and works really well at CQB-type competitions.

Something else that I've seen in the past is the "hunter" that buys the M4 and then takes it out and benches it to "see what it can do". He feeds it Wolf ammo, rests the plastic handguards on a tree limb, and gets upset at the accuracy compared to his hunting rifle. While this is rife with issues, what I've found more than once is that the guy never has really sat down and benched his hunting rifle, and if he does he's supremely upset that Grandad's Remington 700 does 2" groups at 100 too! ;)

Not saying any of this applies to you, just rambling I guess. Anytime accuracy issues/discussions with the M4 come up it's important for the respondents to take the pulse of the original poster to figure out their frame of reference as well as their desires and needs.

[BamaMike]

Most shooters, like most fisherman, golfers, etc., are liars. Not necessarily maliciously or even consciously. Ask a hunter the distance to his last kill and he'll tell you "X yards". Ask his guide and he'll tell you "x/2 yards". ;) I have heard some crazy claims out of people re: their gun/ammo/shooting ability only to find it fall far short on the range (this applies to both accuracy and speed, BTW).

I think a lot of guys go through something like this.
They buy an AR. They're not really sure why other than "I always wanted one". Maybe they go on a forum and post "which AR should I buy" but with zero qualifiers and so everyone suggests an M4. The thing is, if you want to shoot dimes at 200 yards, the M4 ain't the right tool for it. The other thing is, many guys have no idea what they want to do with the gun, and even if someone replies to their query with "what do you want to do with it and how much do you want to spend?" they get vapor-locked and respond back with something like "uhhh, shoot stuff?"

so then the guy gets his gun, goes out and shoots it, and how he feels about it is going to depend entirely on what kind of shooting he's now doing and his prior frame of reference. I came to the AR from handguns, so for me the trigger was a dream, the accuracy was unbelievable, the speed at which I could shoot was amazing, etc. A guy with a bolt-action rifle and hunting background may hate the trigger and believe the gun to be inaccurate. An IPSC grandmaster may find it agonizingly slow compared to his race gun. etc. If the IPSC guy buys a 24" stainless bull barrel and then tries to run & gun at short range he's likely further hampering his use. If the hunter/benchrest guy buys a 16" M4 he's probably not maximizing the platform's potential.

The modularity of the AR is one of it's greatest strengths, but it also makes choices when you're starting out extremely difficult. You CAN buy an AR, even a relatively short/compact one, that will shoot sub-1 MOA with good ammo and a good shooter. The M4 isn't it, generally speaking, but it's a smoking fighting gun, and works really well at CQB-type competitions.

Something else that I've seen in the past is the "hunter" that buys the M4 and then takes it out and benches it to "see what it can do". He feeds it Wolf ammo, rests the plastic handguards on a tree limb, and gets upset at the accuracy compared to his hunting rifle. While this is rife with issues, what I've found more than once is that the guy never has really sat down and benched his hunting rifle, and if he does he's supremely upset that Grandad's Remington 700 does 2" groups at 100 too! ;)

Not saying any of this applies to you, just rambling I guess. Anytime accuracy issues/discussions with the M4 come up it's important for the respondents to take the pulse of the original poster to figure out their frame of reference as well as their desires and needs.

Funny when I read your comment; “…many guys have no idea what they want to do with the gun, and even if someone replies to their query with "what do you want to do with it and how much do you want to spend?" they get vapor-locked and respond back with something like "uhhh, shoot stuff?"”

Frankly, I have no purpose to have the weapon beyond just going out and enjoying the act of shooting it. To be honest punching holes in paper is boring and I have to discipline myself to spend the time to do it. The boy does come out and I start picking of targets on the berm behind the targets (yes, just to see if I can hit them). These departures of discipline are the most enjoyable aspects of shooting and imagine if there was a range with multiple dynamic targets at various ranges I would lose much more money in the form of ammunition. So, my answer to the question of why - to have fun.

Nevertheless, whether my stint in the military or the years spent trying to become mature are responsible for my discipline at the range, it exists and I chase the little bull’s-eye at 100 yds relentlessly. The simple fact that I chase it is the crux of this conversation and my desire to understand what variables I need to focus on. More to the point is to what variables I can tweak to find the best marriage of technology to technique. I am almost afraid that I would lose interest when (or if) I master the art of hitting that elusive bull’s-eye! LOL.

The comments here have really helped me to understand that my situation and experiences are not unique and that really has helped greatly. For your responses and those who have offered similar advice I cannot thank you enough as it really signifies the difference in mentality of those who frequent this board. I find the respect exhibited here to be refreshing.

As far as my desires go, I must admit that I am as much a fan of the machine as I am what it can do. Perhaps it may sound strange but I really love the aesthetics of the rifle in almost all its different forms and functions. I have different weapons and many favorites but there has always been something special with the AR and have been hooked since I built my first one in the early 80’s. I just love em…

Okay, now you got me rambling. :o

- Mike

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

If you just spend more time with the IRONS you may get the hang of them. Its hard if you have the wrong form and getting the right site picture is esential to shooting good groups. 2" at 100 yards is real good shooting as the other guys said.
I had a wilson combat ut15 that would shoot 1/4" at 100 yards with black hills ammo but my current rifle a LMT MRP will only hold 1" on avarage at the same distance with SS109. If you have a friend in the MIL have them show you the basics they
tought in the service.

[BamaMike]

If you just spend more time with the IRONS you may get the hang of them. Its hard if you have the wrong form and getting the right site picture is esential to shooting good groups. 2" at 100 yards is real good shooting as the other guys said.
I had a wilson combat ut15 that would shoot 1/4" at 100 yards with black hills ammo but my current rifle a LMT MRP will only hold 1" on avarage at the same distance with SS109. If you have a friend in the MIL have them show you the basics they
tought in the service.

I practiced a bit with the irons, and while I can hit targets out to 100 yds (range limit), I do not like them. I am comfortable using them, but they are less precise than I would like. Now don't get me wrong, they have their place and if I was practicing close quarters I would use them (probably along with a red dot). However, I am interested in more precision type shooting and I know I am pushing the limits of the weapons capability. As far as stance, I am shooting from a bench and have a good sight picture, so doubt that is an issue. Not that I cannot learn anything new about proper posture, just doubt it is a major contributor.

What I find interesting in these conversations is how much I am learning or more accurately (no pun intended), how different the perspective is for different types of engagement. Like the use of a red dot and sights for close quarters. I have always thought an ACOG would be great for close and far, but now can understand where one could be less than ideal. I also see that my 16" does not seem to fit too well in the big picture, as it is not a great SPR or that great of an M4 clone. Kinda seems overdressed for a street party, yet not quite dressed enough for the formal affair. Of course, I am not employing it as a battle rifle but I can see why some choices are made for the field. Interesting...

- Mike

[Aragorn]

I also see that my 16" does not seem to fit too well in the big picture, as it is not a great SPR or that great of an M4 clone. Kinda seems overdressed for a street party, yet not quite dressed enough for the formal affair.
- Mike

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Even if accuracy is your main goal, there are people out there getting .75" groups at 100 yards with 12.5" and shorter barrels (think Noveske's). Also bear in mind that the SEALs came up with the 16" recce for a combination of increased lethality over the standard M4 and better handling characteristics than their Mk 12 SPR's.

I don't think you're giving up anything with your 16". As for me personally, I wouldn't go any shorter unless I was building a dedicated room clearing rifle. Also IMHO, I think if you need more range/accuracy/stopping power than you can get from a 16" barreled AR, you're getting into territory where a larger caliber may possibly serve you better.

[Paulo_Santos]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Even if accuracy is your main goal, there are people out there getting .75" groups at 100 yards with 12.5" and shorter barrels (think Noveske's). Also bear in mind that the SEALs came up with the 16" recce for a combination of increased lethality over the standard M4 and better handling characteristics than their Mk 12 SPR's.

I don't think you're giving up anything with your 16". As for me personally, I wouldn't go any shorter unless I was building a dedicated room clearing rifle. Also IMHO, I think if you need more range/accuracy/stopping power than you can get from a 16" barreled AR, you're getting into territory where a larger caliber may possibly serve you better.

I took my LMT 14" 6.8 SPC (Chrome lined barrel) that was shooting 1.5 MOA AT BEST, to a class in NC last year and I kicked butt with it out to 400 yards using a 1x6 scope. There is PRACTICAL ACCURACY and there is BENCHREST ACCURACY.

[BamaMike]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Even if accuracy is your main goal, there are people out there getting .75" groups at 100 yards with 12.5" and shorter barrels (think Noveske's). Also bear in mind that the SEALs came up with the 16" recce for a combination of increased lethality over the standard M4 and better handling characteristics than their Mk 12 SPR's.

I don't think you're giving up anything with your 16". As for me personally, I wouldn't go any shorter unless I was building a dedicated room clearing rifle. Also IMHO, I think if you need more range/accuracy/stopping power than you can get from a 16" barreled AR, you're getting into territory where a larger caliber may possibly serve you better.

My assertion was the same (when I was shopping) and I settled on a 16" mid length for the added barrel. I know there is not much gain except a little bit of velocity but it seemed reasonable at the time. I know I can get more accuracy if I upgrade the barrel to something like a Noveske, Lothar, Rainier, Krieger, etc... and I probably will for another build. I suppose I am just looking to find the sweet spot for this barrel and if it is 1 or 2" MOA then at least I will know... Thanks to the advice from you folk I have at least a plan to explore the limits of the machine, the ammo, and the shooter. Not real sure the sequences but I intend to cycle some different ammo through in similar conditions. I have even entertained the idea of buying a "Lead Sled" type aid but probably could handle bracing just fine with sandbags.

As far as my needs, I do not need what I have as far as accuracy, range, or stopping power. I just want to shoot better... [wow]

- Mike

[Aragorn]

There is PRACTICAL ACCURACY and there is BENCHREST ACCURACY.

My point was essentially that barrel length isn't necessarily the deciding factor when it comes to accuracy. Practical OR benchrest.

I wasn't trying to knock anything, be it shorter or longer. Sincere apologies if it came across that way. A skilled shooter such as yourself, rolling a setup such as your LMT is definitely a combination I want on MY side.

[Paulo_Santos]

My point was essentially that barrel length isn't necessarily the deciding factor when it comes to accuracy. Practical OR benchrest.

I wasn't trying to knock anything, be it shorter or longer. Sincere apologies if it came across that way. A skilled shooter such as yourself, rolling a setup such as your LMT is definitely a combination I want on MY side.

No offense taken at all. I was actually backing up what you said about the short barrels being accurate in practical/real world accuracy.

[federalist22]

All of my carbines run about 2" on my good days at 100yds, but if you wan tpintpoint accuracy with an AR for longer range and smaller targets, get a bull barrel like the ones in the pictures above, or an bull barrel flattop upper from Rock River Arms, a drop-in 3, 3.5, or even a 4-lb single-stage trigger (Chip, Wilson, Timney, etc.), or even a Rock River 2-stage. Then put a nice scope on it. My wife's 24" RRA 1:8 free floated bull w/ RRA 2-stage trigger holds consistent nickel-sized groups at 200yds with 69gr Sierras using a Nikon optic. Another good choice is a Rem700 in 223 or 22-250.

[BamaMike]

All of my carbines run about 2" on my good days at 100yds, but if you wan tpintpoint accuracy with an AR for longer range and smaller targets, get a bull barrel like the ones in the pictures above, or an bull barrel flattop upper from Rock River Arms, a drop-in 3, 3.5, or even a 4-lb single-stage trigger (Chip, Wilson, Timney, etc.), or even a Rock River 2-stage. Then put a nice scope on it. My wife's 24" RRA 1:8 free floated bull w/ RRA 2-stage trigger holds consistent nickel-sized groups at 200yds with 69gr Sierras using a Nikon optic. Another good choice is a Rem700 in 223 or 22-250.

Thanks for the tips! I am getting the distinct feeling that my accuracy is at least on par with the average 16" chrome barrel, and maybe even above average. I shot some on Friday and had a couple of really great groups and some so-so. The only variable I can see (besides the shooter) is perhaps with the ammo (XM193). There did not seem to be any reason why some missed the mark and others did not. The gun was on a shooting bag and I put every effort into making the shots count. I will try to post some scans of the targets tonight but suffice it to say some went on either side of the target and I am guessing that could attributed to the shooter or the ammo? I am thinking the former though as there was consistency to what side the groups landed on the target (some right/some left).

Regardless, it is a great learning experience and is forcing me to become a better shooter. I do want to get another trigger and a better barrel and that sounds like another rifle... ;) I also see the value in a SBR for learning quick and close shooting but I need to take baby steps first and get this gun (or me) tuned. Again, I thank everyone for inputs as they are really helping, if nothing else it gives me incentive by telling you all what is working for me - kind of like homework assignments... I know - [crazy]

- Mike

[rob_s]

The 16" carbine is great for what it's great for, and that's all-around use. It's not too short, not too long, not super accurate but not too heavy to carry either, etc. It is, to an extent, a series of compromises. It doesn't do any one thing fantastically but it doesn't totally suck at any one thing either. If you're going to have just one AR,t he 16" chrome-lined barrel is it for anything other than benchrest shooting IMHO (and I wouldn't buy an AR at all if my only goal was to put holes in paper as close as possible to one another). Adding an SBR, or SPR, later on as needs change and specific applications crop up may be beneficial. I like my SBR for running the line at drills and other times when I'm primarily slung. I'd like to have an SPR for attending precision matches and not having to learn a different manual of arms. etc.

If you're working on becoming a "better shooter" with a chrome-lined barrel AR ans surplus ammo you may be fighting a losing battle, depending on how you define "better"... hell, depending on how you define "shooter"! ;)

[BamaMike]

If you're working on becoming a "better shooter" with a chrome-lined barrel AR ans surplus ammo you may be fighting a losing battle, depending on how you define "better"... hell, depending on how you define "shooter"! ;)

Perhaps, but it is good to understand the limitations of your tools - whatever they may be.

- Mike

[gunbuilder]

The first thing I do with any gun and tuning is throw on a high power target scope and test loads. It becomes plainly obvious when you flinch, pull or otherwise pooch the trigger. If you are trying to zero in on the best load using the irons then move up your paper to 25 and 50 yards and you can get a better idea of when it is your error and not the ammo's. Sandbags can suffice down to 1/4 - 1/2" range at 100 no need for a sled. Maybe you really haven't settled into that rear peep yet or are "over-thinking" it? Between it and the AR's stock weld it can be a challenge for someone used to bolt gun ergonomics. It was for me.

[rob_s]

Perhaps, but it is good to understand the limitations of your tools - whatever they may be.

- Mike

I would argue that it's not only good but necessary, and is entirely my point. If you don't know that Wolf is 4 MOA ammo, or XM193 is 2 MOA ammo, and then head out to try and work on your marksmanship techniques you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out why you can't get tighter groups.

My personal standard has always been hitting an 8" plate at 200 yards and have been able to do this for quite some time, even with an Aimpoint. but I'd shoot that same setup on paper for groups and think I was a mediocre shooter. It wasn't until recently that I did what gunbuilder suggests and put a 9x optic on the gun and shot some very high quality 75 and 77 grain ammo and found out that I was able to hold 1/2 in groups at 50 yards. I don't think that's any great shakes but by all accounts that's pretty much the best you're going to get out of a milspec barrel as it equates to sub-MOA with good ammo.

Right tool for the job. Surplus grade when blasting, practicing, training, even competing in action matches, but better grade ammo when trying to work on accuracy.

[BamaMike]

The first thing I do with any gun and tuning is throw on a high power target scope and test loads. It becomes plainly obvious when you flinch, pull or otherwise pooch the trigger. If you are trying to zero in on the best load using the irons then move up your paper to 25 and 50 yards and you can get a better idea of when it is your error and not the ammo's. Sandbags can suffice down to 1/4 - 1/2" range at 100 no need for a sled. Maybe you really haven't settled into that rear peep yet or are "over-thinking" it? Between it and the AR's stock weld it can be a challenge for someone used to bolt gun ergonomics. It was for me.

While I would love to say that I don't flinch, it would be total BS to make that assertion; however, I am, or try to be, very careful to watch for "flinching" and do attribute some inconsistency with that which bemoans some of us. As far as irons, I am past that, at least for now while I try to get the best group I can under the circumstances. At some point I would like to get a sled if for nothing else to resolve the issue of why some shots are flying outside the realm of accuracy. Some shots seem pretty wild and flinching does not seem to account for their randomness as some land over 3" outside of my point of aim. Some of these shots are made when my aim is consistent and my concentration is very certain as the "boom" is a satisfying surprise when encountered. That is usually a good sign when worried about flinching or at least that is what I recall hearing when I learned to shoot so many years ago. What is funny is that I tried heavier grain ammo (M855 (62 grain)) and my gun did not seem to like them much at all as they were "flying" more frequently than the XM193's (55 grain). I would have assumed the opposite. The best shots placed with the lighter round would have had me bragging if I could show consistency as they were pretty tight (within an inch), but that was probably a fluke.

The philosophy of cheek weld being an issue has always been hard for me to understand (at least with a scoped rifle) as when the cross hairs are on target the bullet should presumably hit the target (???). Again, that may show my ignorance, but I have no ego to bruise (well, not much) - just trying to do the best with what I have.

As so many of you offer tips to help me achieve accuracy I can only say how appreciative I am for the comments and tips. I continue to add these recommendations to my regime and shy of getting the suggested Black Hills ammo I am employing the comments to isolate the root cause, but so far I have not done a good job of localizing it to one area. I still believe that it may be a combination of factors that I may have little control over, but I keep looking…

Thanks,

Mike

[BamaMike]

I would argue that it's not only good but necessary, and is entirely my point. If you don't know that Wolf is 4 MOA ammo, or XM193 is 2 MOA ammo, and then head out to try and work on your marksmanship techniques you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out why you can't get tighter groups.


Of this, we are in total agreement. [crazy]

I suppose I should give it up (accuracy with surplus ammo), and focus on getting some Black Hills stuff to try to make holes in paper, use surplus to plink...

Thanks for the sanity check.

- Mike

[TehLlama]

More importantly, realize that accuracy functions as a stack of tolerances. To make really tight groups, you'll need a good barrel, good trigger, (optic), and quality ammunition. To make acceptable groups, you can take rack grade rifles and run spec 5.56 ammunition through it. It doesn't take a match barrel and customized handloads to diagnose a novice shooters' deficiencies, nor does it take a ton of money to make a very accurate AR.
If paper isn't your primary foe, then a chrome lined barrel with stock trigger is more than adequate for anybody this discussion applies to (for those with enough ammo downrange to achieve that level of mastery have probably already figured out).
Simple upgrades (free floating, aftermarket trigger) and any sort of accuracy mindful ammunition will build you a rifle that will outshoot most rifle owners, and these rifles certainly are able to withstand use as a blaster for closer range shooting.

For now, learn about how to run glass - we've had shooters at the range have a really hard time dealing with not being directly behind their RCOs, and wind up with groups spraying all over the place. You should get the exact same spot behind the optic (for why, start googling Parallax and keep reading until your brain hurts), as that inconsistency can account for more variation than Wolf ammo can.

Looking back at a historical perspective - a rifle that held 3MOA as an issue weapon would have been considered a tack driver prior to Eugene Stoner's wee poodle shooter, and that still equates to hitting a chest sized target at half a click. A well thought out modern AR can do half that with the right ammo, though most shooters can't.

For now, I'm accumulating lots of surplus ammo for short range and training use, PPU 75gr HPBT semi-match stuff to run through for competition and long range plinking, and finally some T2 TAP and Mk262 for when I don't feel the need to pinch pennies of ammunition - so I'd say your logic is quite good.

[BamaMike]

More importantly, realize that accuracy functions as a stack of tolerances. To make really tight groups, you'll need a good barrel, good trigger, (optic), and quality ammunition. To make acceptable groups, you can take rack grade rifles and run spec 5.56 ammunition through it. It doesn't take a match barrel and customized handloads to diagnose a novice shooters' deficiencies, nor does it take a ton of money to make a very accurate AR.
If paper isn't your primary foe, then a chrome lined barrel with stock trigger is more than adequate for anybody this discussion applies to (for those with enough ammo downrange to achieve that level of mastery have probably already figured out).
Simple upgrades (free floating, aftermarket trigger) and any sort of accuracy mindful ammunition will build you a rifle that will outshoot most rifle owners, and these rifles certainly are able to withstand use as a blaster for closer range shooting.

For now, learn about how to run glass - we've had shooters at the range have a really hard time dealing with not being directly behind their RCOs, and wind up with groups spraying all over the place. You should get the exact same spot behind the optic (for why, start googling Parallax and keep reading until your brain hurts), as that inconsistency can account for more variation than Wolf ammo can.

Looking back at a historical perspective - a rifle that held 3MOA as an issue weapon would have been considered a tack driver prior to Eugene Stoner's wee poodle shooter, and that still equates to hitting a chest sized target at half a click. A well thought out modern AR can do half that with the right ammo, though most shooters can't.

For now, I'm accumulating lots of surplus ammo for short range and training use, PPU 75gr HPBT semi-match stuff to run through for competition and long range plinking, and finally some T2 TAP and Mk262 for when I don't feel the need to pinch pennies of ammunition - so I'd say your logic is quite good.

Thanks for the vote of confidence (on the logic end of things). As many have said, perhaps I am expecting too much from the variables and doubt that there is any real issue, as I am hitting the targets within the prescribed areas and for a battle rifle it is effective (at least @ 100 yds (farthest I have shot so far)). I certainly would kill whatever I was aiming at even with the worst flyers. I will try to get some better ammo to try.

I also intend to put together a dedicated rifle for more precision and have been eying several barrels Lothar, Douglas, WOA, Krieger, Noveske, etc and either the single stage Wilson Combat TTU or a Geissele two stage trigger (Match or DMR) or the non-adjustable SSA-E (really focusing on this one as I doubt I would mess with adjustment). This would be a fun project, albeit expensive.

Thanks for the comments and the insight!

- Mike

[BamaMike]

An update and a possible explanation:

I went shooting the other day and my shots were more erratic than usual and I went to adjust the windage and the scope body moved a little. I do not know how long the scope mount loosened but the mount had loosened from the rail. So much so that the mounting nuts turned by hand, so I have to reinstall it. The mount is a Burris PEPR and it has lock washers that I assumed would preclude their backing out. I will use some blue loctite tonight when I reinstall the scope. After I removed the scope I shot a clip with the BUIS and I was quite pleased that my shots at 100 yds were quite accurate. I was not shooting at designated targets but rather picking at junk on the berm (earthen backstop).

Of course, my accuracy challenge will continue along with an expansion of sorts into this hobby. I want to update the trigger and while Geissele makes a great trigger I believe the next upgrade will be a Wilson TTU as Stick’s review (and others on the net) has been very favorable. I am also going to dive into the reloading scene as I am outgrowing surplus ammo both with its accuracy and cost (okay, mainly cost). I want a progressive loader and after looking at the Dillon 650 and the Hornady LNL I am swaying towards the Hornady and may order it before the end of month while it is on sale at Midway. I will likely be asking some advice from more experienced reloaders here, so please feel free to comment/advise.

Anyway, I just wanted to update everyone, as you all have been very supportive!

- Mike

[HS2]

I've had similar problems with various components getting loose. Though the AR does not have a lot of apparent recoil it definately can shake things loose.

[Paulo_Santos]

Both the Dillon and Hornady presses are both top notch. I have the Dillon 550.

Always put Blue Loctite on screws.