Had an interesting conversation yesterday, want to get your thoughts.

[Fr3Ek619]

The other day me along with some friends from work were talking about a go-to rifle for home defense, SHTF, whatever you want to call it.

I told everyone that a DI AR, such as the Noveske N4 light Recce with switchblock that I have been looking hard at, was a better choice than a piston parts with its proprietary parts. 5 out of the 7 people I had this discussion had LWRC rifles so they were going to biased.

So, I ask you, would you rather have a DI AR15 or a Gas Piston AR15 for a go to rifle?

[Paulo_Santos]

Personally I don't think it really matters. Anything can break at any time. Whether it is the piston rod, gas key coming loose, bolt breaking, trigger problem, magazine problem.

[Fr3Ek619]

Thanks for the response sir. I had thought about the same thing as everything is almost always going to break down, but I didn't know if that idea was shared among others. Thanks again sir.

[The-S]

the kind that goes bang

[tac40]

I guess one way of looking at it, how expensive do you want your club to be? DI vs gas piston, carbine DI vs mid-length or rifle length? All good points. Having seen just about every kind of weapon break at one time or another-whether badguy with wrong caliber bullet and even the good guy can load a rd backwards-I've seen that to. What is a good go to rifle? How about a M1 Garand? The AR is the current flavor because it works when properly maintained. I have a AR I built with a buddy who is a certified Colt armour. Because I put the parts into it, I kinda look at it as this better safe my a$$ when the time comes-the rilfe is a full size 20" bbl with full length DI, this still works fine for me. Don't count out the full size rifle.

[rob_s]

DI. I can find parts more readily.

[Quib]

From a parts availability standpoint, I agree with having a direct impingement AR, verses a gas piston version.

An old Army buddy of mine recently contacted me regarding his first AR purchase. The topic of DI verses PD AR’s came up. Before the conversation even turned to discussing the differences between the two systems, my buddy brought up the parts availability issue and his concerns with spares.

[Paulo_Santos]

Keep in mind that you can buy spare Piston parts just like you can with DI parts. In a piston, the things to worry about is the rod and the bolt. In the DI, you generally have to worry about the bolt and carrier key coming loose. Everything else is the same.

[Quib]

That’s understandable Paulo.

I’m personally looking at a scenario where perhaps I’m no longer in possession of, or have been separated from my spares inventory. In that circumstance, the probability of finding DI AR parts is more likely than the probability of finding PD AR parts, especially parts that are compatible with my particular Mfgr. of PD AR.

[rob_s]

Keep in mind that you can buy spare Piston parts just like you can with DI parts.

No, you can't. You're not going to put a spare DPMS piston in an LWRC gun, I can put a spare DPMS gas tube in a Colt. Same thing applies for all of the proprietary piston parts. Add to that the fact that if another ban happens and many of these companies will be TU, making proprietary parts completely impossible to find, and the GP is a non-starter for me.

[Paulo_Santos]

No, you can't. You're not going to put a spare DPMS piston in an LWRC gun, I can put a spare DPMS gas tube in a Colt. Same thing applies for all of the proprietary piston parts. Add to that the fact that if another ban happens and many of these companies will be TU, making proprietary parts completely impossible to find, and the GP is a non-starter for me.

If you have a POF Piston, you can buy extra POF piston parts. If you have a PWS Piston, you can buy extra PWS parts. That was my point.

And honestly, I think I have a better chance of regrowing hair than a SHTF scenerio actually happening. And I think I have a better chance of regrowing hair and growing 5" than a SHTF scenerio happening where something catastrophic is going to happen to my Piston AR. [BD][BD]

For me, the SHTF scenerio isn't even a deciding factor on whether I get a DI or Piston or anything else. JMHO.

[Gunfighter45]

Look at what has been around longest at this Point! What can I pick up on the steet after it all falls apart......... Its Kinda Like AK vs AR?????
I love the standard version of AR, Keep in mind I have no experiance with the piston rifles.

[TehLlama]

I will absolutely take a DI Rifle I've spent the price difference running rounds through over a piston system. This argument will, for most users, end up being a decision on cost and value - very few informed people will tell you that for realistic civilian ammunition budgets that any advantages of the op-rod AR will actually manifest itself outside of certain NFA applications. There are a lot of extremely good DI systems available at very competitive prices, and there's only a few op-rod systems I'd group with them in the same quality(that I've tried), all of which are a bit more expensive (LWRCi, LMT, HK, POF), and of those all are still heavier than their DI counteparts.

I really can't comprehend why anybody with any knowledge would choose something like a bull-barreled system with a piston adapter kit - but they're selling. This alone struck me as an indicator that modifying the weapon system to be op-rod based isn't a solution for a common problem, and most commonly a solution for a nonexistent problem that if lower quality parts are used ends up being a new liability.

[rob_s]

If you have a POF Piston, you can buy extra POF piston parts. If you have a PWS Piston, you can buy extra PWS parts. That was my point.

And honestly, I think I have a better chance of regrowing hair than a SHTF scenerio actually happening. And I think I have a better chance of regrowing hair and growing 5" than a SHTF scenerio happening where something catastrophic is going to happen to my Piston AR. [BD][BD]

For me, the SHTF scenerio isn't even a deciding factor on whether I get a DI or Piston or anything else. JMHO.

I don't recall mentioning a "SHTF" scenario. The OP asked for "go to rifle". The definition of this is going to be different for everyone (and some people are going to define it based on the rifle they already own).

If it is possible to get POF parts from 10 places, it's possible to get the same DI piece from 10,000 places. If it's possible to get LWRC parts from 100 places, it's possible to get the same DI piece from 100,000 places.

Saying that piston parts are as readily available as DI parts is nonsense. They are not. Go to a class and have a proprietary piston part fail. Think anyone else there has a spare? I bet not. But I bet if you had taken the legacy gun you'd have 3-4 people offering you a spare.

I will state plainly, I see absolutely NO reason to buy a piston-operated AR. They are more expensive, heavier, have proprietary parts, less accurate, louder suppressed, have their own set of issues, tend to be built with sub-standard other parts, and offer NO improvement in terms of reliability. They are an answer to a question only one entity asked, and that entity has since chosen to stay with their legacy system. This is a clue. Colt had the infamous military test re-done with new production rifles as opposed to the off-the-rack beaters that were used in the first test and they actually recorded FEWER failures than any of the GP platforms involved. another clue. Pat Rogers has an article in this month's SWAT on a BCM gun "Filthy 14". 30k+ rounds with essentially lube only. Mike Pannone has an article on Defense Review where he ran a NIB BCM 14.5" upper for over 2k rounds without any lube added at all. What, again, is the advantage to the piston? For every single thing the piston-conversion AR does the DI either does it better or can be made to do it better in short order (want an adjustable gas? buy a switchblock. want to see if you can run it without lube? get a Failzero BCG. etc.)

If people want to buy them because they're into trying new things, playing around with range toys, etc. then by all means it's their dollar. I believe that there may be some that might even be as reliable as a quality DI gun, so they may get lucky and not result in a downgrade. But make no mistake they are not the panacea that some claim them to be, and generally just swap one set of issues for another, at best.

[Paulo_Santos]

Rob, look at the first sentence in the OPs thread. SHTF is right there. That's why I said SHTF.

I said this several times. The only advantage to the Piston AR is that they are cleaner and you don't have to clean them as often. Reliability is the same on both systems. For me, that was the selling point. The one thing I don't do is go around claiming that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, nor do I push them on people. I am stating my opinion since I have now out over 10k through my LMT and it is just as accurate as any other AR that I have shot. And if you compare similar DI to Piston ARs, the weight is virtually the same. Choose whatever yoh want and put several hundred rounds through it to make sure it is reliable for a SHTF/go to rifle. That simple.

If I took my LMT to a rifle class, I have spare parts for it just for a DI. The only thing that could break that I would not have is the rod. Everything else is the same as a DI. And if I had a POF, I'd buy the extra parts kit to take to a class. Not a big deal to me.

[rob_s]

Rob, look at the first sentence in the OPs thread. SHTF is right there. That's why I said SHTF.
It's one of several choices. I thought you were saying I was referring to SHTF because you quoted me.

[Army Chief]

I've yet to see a piston-driven AR (with the possible exception of the 416) that led me to conclude that there might be a reason to switch. Take the proprietary parts question off of the table, and I'll still opt for a DI SR-15E3.

AC

[rob_s]

The SR15 Is an interesting beast. I think it's probably the pinnacle of AR design right now but obviously suffers from some proprietary parts issues too. I have heard that a standard BCG will work in the gun in a pinch though which alleviates some of that.

[m24shooter]

The lack of standardization in the piston types is a major weakness in that field. As Rob said, if you can get the parts for one kit at one place, there are a multitude of other vendors that have basic DI parts.
There are robust piston kits, piston kits with specific rails, piston kits that bolt on and replace the gas tube parts and are held in by a gas tube pin, unique carriers with pads and skids, you name it.
I would go with a DI gun simply because they are easier to maintain and find parts for, and there is not a substantial reason to go with a piston gun that otherwise is the exact same thing as a DI gun.

[Quib]

The lack of standardization in the piston types is a major weakness in that field.

Precisely.

The DI AR is currently the standard. As long as we have standardization, we have a possible source for parts cannibalization.

[Fr3Ek619]

Thanks guys for all the discussion. I would have replied sooner they just been working me to death lol. I see that there are people on both sides, with more siding on the DI side. While doing some research I found you can buy extra parts for the LWRC line of rifles, just not at as many places you can buy DI parts. As someone posted earlier if you are in a class and a part breaks, someone there may be able to help you if you have a DI gun. While a piston gun has a way slimmer chance of someone having the same part as needed. Thanks alot guys for all the discussion again.

[TehLlama]

It all comes to budget - I have no doubt that you could show up to a course, or have in your abode a solid piston system and your own set of spares (or a full backup), and run it just fine. The only reason I tend to discount this scenario is that any individual with that bankroll will get a piston AR because they want to see how it runs and compare for themselves, and it's not the kind of cost decision that would be taking cash away from an ammunition and training budget. For somebody that looks at their finances and realistically only sees enough space for one quality weapon system, I think the DI system has a much better place - not on pure technical merit, but as a purely financial decision - dollars spent per ability to accurately put holes in things with a maximum MRBF.

[Paulo_Santos]

It all comes to budget - I have no doubt that you could show up to a course, or have in your abode a solid piston system and your own set of spares (or a full backup), and run it just fine. The only reason I tend to discount this scenario is that any individual with that bankroll will get a piston AR because they want to see how it runs and compare for themselves, and it's not the kind of cost decision that would be taking cash away from an ammunition and training budget. For somebody that looks at their finances and realistically only sees enough space for one quality weapon system, I think the DI system has a much better place - not on pure technical merit, but as a purely financial decision - dollars spent per ability to accurately put holes in things with a maximum MRBF.

And this is an excellent point. There is no doubt that cost should be a factor.

On another note:
Honestly, there is nothing special about the Piston AR. Sure they run cleaner, but they are no more reliable that a DI. I don't get the Piston AR Fanatics who think Piston AR's are the greatest thing since sliced bread, nor do I get the Piston Haters, who base their opinions on ignorance or because they don't want to be open minded. Some people just don't have a need for the Piston AR's and that is perfectly fine. I don't even know if I'll get another Piston LMT barrel to replace mine when it wears out. I'll admit that I bought my LMT Piston upper out of curiosity and I knew that if I didn't like it, I could just swap out to a DI barrel.

The proprietery parts don't scare me. Sure I wish manufacturers would standardize the piston parts, but even if I had a AA/PWS/LWRC/POF/etc, and if any of those companies folded all I'd have to do is swap out to a DI barrel and a regular BCG. Not that big of a deal to me.

[willardcw4]

The only real benefit I see to using a piston AR is if you are going to run a suppressor. The other "benefits" I feel don't really warrant (for my needs at least), spending more money for a piston rifle or kit.