BCM Dissipator- Yes or No?

[Stickman]

Bravo Company MFG has been kicking around the idea of making a dissipator for a little while. WEVO Staff was able to get ahold of one, and wanted to get the thoughts of all of you guys out there.

In this case, the BCM Dissy is a using their BCM Midlength gas system on a 16" Cold Hammer Forged (CHF) barrel. In typical BCM fashion, this barrel is proof fired and MPI tested. The F marked front sight base is pinned in place, and the hand guard cap is screwed into the FSB so it can't come loose. The gas block is pinned in place and properly spaced.

The advantages of the rifle length hand guards on a 16" barrel are pretty straight forward. The standard rifle hand guards are plastic, and very light weight. The upcoming Magpul MOE rifle length hand guards are very light weight as well, and they are what I believe most shooters will be interested in using. The MOE hand guards offer a variety of mounting solutions for lights and VFGs. A 2 piece drop in rail is also an easy cure for those people who have a love for extended rails or a need to mount precision devices such as lasers or optics.

The extended space of the hand guards prevent heavy shadowing of the barrel when you are using a light, an important feature when clearing rooms or using a light in real world situations. The extended room also allow for a more forward hand grip when shooting, a method which has become increasingly popular for muzzle control.


My question for everyone is this, do you think this is a concept which Bravo Company MFG should pursue, or do you think they should stick with more traditional models?



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9692-1024-Stick.jpg


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9695-1024-Stick.jpg

[Stickman]

These images show the pinned FSB and gas block.


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9697-1024-Stick.jpg


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9698-1024-Stick.jpg


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9701-1024-Stick.jpg

[Stickman]

Here are the railed versions.....


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W1003-10224-Stick.jpg



http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W1004-1024-Stick.jpg

[rob_s]

I can understand the attraction, and 12+ years ago I sold more BM Dissipators than any other model. I even still have one in my safe. But I'm not sure that what was applicable then is applicable now. At the time flattops, and RDS were just barely making an appearance and we still sold way more A2 rifles for anything other than long-range shooting, and the longer sight radius of the Dissipator was attractive. Also, railed handguards, especially free-float type, were not at all common. Some folks were using the KAC 7" but that was about it.

Today, anyone that wants to can simply chop their FSB and run a 12.0 or even 13.0 rail over it and attach a flip-up front sight and actually wind up lighter, and more capable, than rifle-length plastic handguards and a full FSB. I have found that quite often the notion that a set of plastic handguards and FSB is lighter than a rail system turns out to be incorrect once you add a way to attach a light, sling, and VFG. Even in trimmed-down form there really isn't a weight savings.

I wouldn't discourage BCM from making them, and I'm sure they'll sell some, but logically it doesn't necessarily add up and I'm not sure the same benefits apply today that did 15 years ago.

[Paulo_Santos]

Personally, I'd prefer to have a 12" FF handguard with front and rear flip ups, but If I were to use the regular FSB, the Dissipator is pretty nice.

[Wondering Beard]

I'm a newb when it comes to ARs so my opinion isn't as learned as nearly all of you.

I find the concept interesting for the reasons Stick mentioned but only if we're talking about keeping plastic handguards, especially the MOE type.

I have found that the longer the railed handguard, the more the balance moves forward and needs to be compensated for at the rear which then continues adding weight to a rifle which is meant to be light; add to that an FSB in the front and it might start getting awkward.

If the handguard is a rifle length MOE which enables one to mount accessories easily then ok as the weight and balance are likely well preserved but since it won't be free-floated, which rightly or wrongly people seem to prefer, there just might not be that big a market for it.

As I look to the ways I would use my AR, while I am intrigued, I most likely wouldn't buy one.

Edit:

I just went back to watch the milspecmonkey video (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVeePdLvao&feature=channel) from SHOT 2010 about Magpul which features the rifle length MOE handguard on a BCM Dissipator and I believe I'm changing my mind. Adding only a light and a red dot optic would make for a much more practical carbine than I originally thought. All of that is so long as it's with an MOE handguard and would be even better with a pencil barrel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVeePdLvao&feature=channel

I hope it's all right to embed the video, if not tell me, and I'll remove it.

[HeavyDuty]

Oh, hell yes.

I have a very strong preference for FSBs on my ARs, and midlength Dissapators are of great interest to me. My one suggestion would be to make a version with a pencil profile - 0.590" nominal OD with 0.625" journals for both the gas block and the FSB.

[sjohnny]

What is the benefit to this over a rifle length gas system?

[HeavyDuty]

16" barrel vs. 20".

[Stickman]

Oh, hell yes.

I have a very strong preference for FSBs on my ARs, and midlength Dissapators are of great interest to me. My one suggestion would be to make a version with a pencil profile - 0.590" nominal OD with 0.625" journals for both the gas block and the FSB.




I strongly agree with you. I see a large benefit in a setup like this coming from an affordable light weight setup.

While rails are extremely popular, they are also adding several hundred dollars to the price of a weapon. With the money that you would spend on a rail, you could be getting an optic (or saving enough money to be close to buying one).

[sjohnny]

16" barrel vs. 20".

Why can't you have a 16" barrel with a rifle length gas system?

[Stickman]

Why can't you have a 16" barrel with a rifle length gas system?


Your gas port is to close to the end of the barrel and it creates issues.

[hikeeba]

...logically it doesn't necessarily add up....

Logically, no. Emotionally, perhaps. I can see it as having a sort of throwback or retro appeal for those who loved the original Bushmaster Dissipator idea. Not that there would be anything wrong with that. And after thinking about it a little more, I suppose someone could make it logically add up for their particular application. Different strokes for different folks. Or if they had an original Dissy with a rifle-length gas setup, maybe it was different short strokes for different folks. Nyuk nyuk.

It's neato and all, but not for me. While I'm keen on the Dissipator concept applied to a 12.5" SBR, a 16" 'Kino Configuration,' not so much.


Why can't you have a 16" barrel with a rifle length gas system?

Dwell time (time from when the bullet passes the gas port to the time it exits the barrel) is too short, resulting in not enough gas pressure left behind the bullet to cycle the action reliably. Or something like that.

[Stickman]

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9704-1024-Stick.jpg

[sjohnny]

Thanks guys! I'm still new to a lot of this.

[Aragorn]

I think for a general purpose beater gun, especially one that isn't likely to get more than a red dot (or simply run straight irons), it would be hard to beat. More so if it were wearing a rifle length MOE. Even MORE so if they did it in the above mentioned pencil profile.

All else being equal, I think people would buy it just to give their rifle a unique appearance.

[HeavyDuty]

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/BCM/868W9695-1024-Stick.jpg

Any more smu... er pics of this configuration? I'm still old school enough that I like how A2 handguards fit my hands.

[Stickman]

Any more smu... er pics of this configuration? I'm still old school enough that I like how A2 handguards fit my hands.



I'll shoot some pictures with other stocks if you like, but I'm heading out to run some quick pistol drills, so it won't be for a little while.

[Wondering Beard]

Is this 'dissy' something that could be done with their 14.5" midlength upper or is there just not enough room in front?

Edited to also ask:

would this be a BHF barrel?

Looking over the BCM website I noticed that the BHF is only offered with 16" barrels or the only 14.5" barrelled upper that comes with a LaRue 9" handguard (same thing with the complete rifles). Does anyone know why that is?

[Creeky73]

I like the idea of it, and would have gotten one 2 months ago when I ordered my BCM upper if a) it had been available, and b) the magpul hand guards had been released. I think that, even if no other purpose was served, just getting the front sight a little further out than a typical carbine or mid length allows is nice.

[HeavyDuty]

No hurry, Stick - actually ACS is my stock of choice and I like A2 corncobs, but if you happen to have a rifle length MOE lying around... [BD]

[Stickman]

No hurry, Stick - actually ACS is my stock of choice and I like A2 corncobs, but if you happen to have a rifle length MOE lying around... [BD]


I'm not able to confirm or release images of Magpul products that are not in production or shipping at this time. .


Too many crying little girls on the internet ruined a good thing.

[TehLlama]

We have to settle for the BCM Gunfighter poster... but we get the idea.

Only with the MOE handguards would the dissy make sense for me, and I'm still more likely to agree with Rob that just running a TROY 13" Extreme with DD Front sight accomplishes the same thing with less weight. I'll probably do the latter, but I can see why they'll be able to sell a full run if they do make the dissipators.

[Wondering Beard]

Too many crying little girls on the internet ruined a good thing.

How so?

[Paulo_Santos]

How so?

Companies put out an ESTIMATED time of release and when the product isn't released at that date, guys on the internet start bitching and mother f^*(^ companies.

[HeavyDuty]

Yeah, it's one thing to wish something would be released but some of the jamokes have an almost palpable sense of entitlement about it.

[Wondering Beard]

Companies put out an ESTIMATED time of release and when the product isn't released at that date, guys on the internet start bitching and mother f^*(^ companies.


Yeah, it's one thing to wish something would be released but some of the jamokes have an almost palpable sense of entitlement about it.

I understood that part but I'm not sure I understand the "ruined a good thing" part.

How is a company like Magpul affected sufficiently by all the internet idiocy that it (the idiocy) "ruined a good thing"?

I'll admit to have gotten impatient with the release of products in the past but that was/is my problem. A quality company, like Magpul, will release its products when they're good and ready irrelevant of whining, right?

[Stickman]

I understood that part but I'm not sure I understand the "ruined a good thing" part.

How is a company like Magpul affected sufficiently by all the internet idiocy that it (the idiocy) "ruined a good thing"?

I'll admit to have gotten impatient with the release of products in the past but that was/is my problem. A quality company, like Magpul, will release its products when they're good and ready irrelevant of whining, right?


I think that a lot of people know that I'm Magpuls photographer. For years I shot items that were prototypes to show people what was coming in the future. Some of these items were released pretty shortly after, some were not.

Instead of people getting to see what was upcoming, and give their feedback, it turned into people whining with an entitlement thought process, and upset because I had something that they did not.

When a company is getting multiple calls and emails a day wanting to know why "Stickman" has an item and is posting pictures when they don't have one, things have gone into the realm of absurd.

The simple answer is that I no longer post any images of items unless they are already released. The exception is when I'm doing work for Military Times or WEVO when a company is looking specifically for me to release info early.

[Wondering Beard]

Aah, I get it now.

A good thing has indeed been ruined, especially as I got great enjoyment of the previews you gave us (I wasn't a member then but a "regular lurker")

I did see that BCM has both the midlength and rifle length MOE handguards for sale (they're 'out of stock' which I presume means they once were 'in stock').

[TehLlama]

They're just not released yet, though the consensus is that such an animal will exist.
I'm shocked at how upset some folks got when T&E items weren't in their hands on time tables they felt they were entitled to... oh well.

[Stickman]

A

I did see that BCM has both the midlength and rifle length MOE handguards for sale (they're 'out of stock' which I presume means they once were 'in stock').


No, they have never been released. They are out of stock based on the idea that they have never been in stock. Think of it more as a place holder. As soon as ANY of them are ready, I'll be posting images.

[Army Chief]

Interested to the point where I am ready to write a check for a T&E upper.

AC

[HeavyDuty]

You and me both - I'm holding the stash I was going to apply to a BCM 16" midlength upper for this.

[Lancelot]

Yes. It has potential for my work environment.

[Wondering Beard]

No, they have never been released. They are out of stock based on the idea that they have never been in stock. Think of it more as a place holder. As soon as ANY of them are ready, I'll be posting images.

Will do [:)]

I don't mean to sound impatient, it's just that, even though I wasn't favorable to the idea of the 'dissy' at the beginning, a few ideas have been popping into my brain and visuals help firm or eliminate them.

Since, any project undertaken on the basis of these ideas wouldn't even begin for several months anyway, I can wait.[:D]

In the meanwhile, BCM has these (http://http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=MAG418+BLK) and these (http://http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=MAG419+BLK) photos to give us a sense of what they may be like.

[Stickman]

Some more images are available through Military Times, please note that these are prototype MOE hand guards, and are not production items. Being as these images have already been released, there is no issue showing them again.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/magpul-moe-handguards/imgl4189-800-mt.jpg


http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/magpul-moe-handguards/imgl3678-800-mt.jpg

[Wondering Beard]

It is interesting that neither the midlength nor the rifle length have slots at the rear.

Maybe it's to simplify manufacturing but since those slots help in cooling (it gets real hot at or near the chamber as I understand it), I would have thought it would be good to have them all the way back.

Then again, these are prototypes.

I've definitely changed my mind about the 'dissy with a MOE'. As Aragorn says, it would be great as a general purpose beater/trunk gun, especially with a pencil barrel.

[Quib]

It is interesting that neither the midlength nor the rifle length have slots at the rear.

..................... I would have thought it would be good to have them all the way back.

Then again, these are prototypes.



I noticed this as well.

I guess we'll see if this is addressed when the HG's actually hit the market.

[Lancelot]

I've tested and am still playing with the QD sling socket made by Mount-N-Slot for the MOE hand guards. I like it. But I like it all the way aft on the hand guards not forward. So I too, hope there are more slots to the rear.


On the dissy note, I always liked this one.


http://www.slr15rifles.com/v/vspfiles/photos/SLR15Grail-3.jpg


This of course is the Grail from Defensive Edge. They call it the Holy Grail in some ads. I like the PRI float tube on the gun. I'd love to have a BCM upper set up this way. I have some great name suggestions for the BCM version.

[Quib]

I've tested and am still playing with the QD sling socket made by Mount-N-Slot for the MOE hand guards. I like it. But I like it all the way aft on the hand guards not forward. So I too, hope there are more slots to the rear.

I'm playing around with them as well........

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2500-IMPACT-WEAPONS-COMPONENTS-Mount-N-Slot-Direct-Attach-Mounts

[Lancelot]

Great guys. They responded to my idea about making the QD limited rotation almost immediately. They have some other cool stuff cooking.

[Quib]

They have some other cool stuff cooking.

Yes Sir......looking forward to reviewing more of what's to come!

[Bowser]

I sort of like the 14.5" carbine dissy upper. Sort of a toss up between that and the 14.5" midlength upper.

[RyanS]

I, for one, am rather excited about this. I've been hoping that a company that had its s*#t together (read BCM) would put out a Dissy with a mid-length gas system.

[rob_s]

In thinking on this a bit more, I can see maybe two reasons for it.

Cost. I don't think this is really that huge of an issue but maybe it is for some people. If you cannot afford the added $100-200 for a lightweight rail system and front BUIS over the rifle-length MOE then maybe this is a good option.
Durability. No question that the pinned-in FSB is sturdier than any rail-mount front sight, and obviously potentially more accurate (provided the shooter and ammo can keep up). I question pinning a slave FSB and then not pinning a gas block but that can be easily rectified.


Neither of the above are interesting/attractive/necessary for me personally, but when combined I could see where someone might make a logical argument for one. If it's your first AR, and you're going to keep it simple and shoot irons only for awhile, it's probably the best option. If you already own 10 and are eventually going to add a rail anyway, I'm not sure I see it. And claiming that there is a weight savings is just not an accurate statement IMHO.

Clearly I am alone in this, based on the replies here and elsewhere, and I'm certainly not one to tell BCM what they should and shouldn't make. I was a skeptic re: the 14.5" mid-lengths too and now have 1k rounds through two of them and an article on my T&E of a production gun coming out soon, so I can certainly be swayed by gun in hand and rounds downrange.


I will say that I ONLY see this as viable with the MOE. Without it there is a whole hodgepodge of shit you would need to go through to get it up to speed. I'm hopeful that the production MOE retains the slots all the way along it's length and not just at the front end as the rear slots make for good sling attachment points and it would suck not to have them. Although plastic is easy enough to drill/cut.

[Wondering Beard]

I will say that I ONLY see this as viable with the MOE. Without it there is a whole hodgepodge of shit you would need to go through to get it up to speed. I'm hopeful that the production MOE retains the slots all the way along it's length and not just at the front end as the rear slots make for good sling attachment points and it would suck not to have them. Although plastic is easy enough to drill/cut.

Big +1

Add a pencil barrel too.

[peabody]

it took me a long time' but i've built a dissy with a cmmg 1x7 twist barrel'
sent it to ADCO trimmed off a bunch of weight' moved gas port to mid/length. added a A.R.M.S model 41-B front sight'
boy did she wake up !
light as a feather' i used a plum crazy lower for even more weight savings.
im like everybody else' i pre-ordered a set of MOE rifle length handguards,
i have the picture of it posted on oa2.org, under weets retro israeli IDF clone.
i wanted to build the most ''usefull'' rifle/carbine i could think of'
and i wanted it as light as i could get it'
the dissy style was the only platform that fit the bill as a ''do it all'' im in love with it. :)
wishes i could post a pic here.
all i have left to do is install the H2 buffer and tubbs spring' and someday the MOE handguards.
peabody

[HS2]

I can understand the attraction, and 12+ years ago I sold more BM Dissipators than any other model. I even still have one in my safe. But I'm not sure that what was applicable then is applicable now. At the time flattops, and RDS were just barely making an appearance and we still sold way more A2 rifles for anything other than long-range shooting, and the longer sight radius of the Dissipator was attractive. Also, railed handguards, especially free-float type, were not at all common. Some folks were using the KAC 7" but that was about it.

Today, anyone that wants to can simply chop their FSB and run a 12.0 or even 13.0 rail over it and attach a flip-up front sight and actually wind up lighter, and more capable, than rifle-length plastic handguards and a full FSB. I have found that quite often the notion that a set of plastic handguards and FSB is lighter than a rail system turns out to be incorrect once you add a way to attach a light, sling, and VFG. Even in trimmed-down form there really isn't a weight savings.

I wouldn't discourage BCM from making them, and I'm sure they'll sell some, but logically it doesn't necessarily add up and I'm not sure the same benefits apply today that did 15 years ago.

I'm with Rob. Aside from cost, I don't see much advantage.

[peabody]

i thinks BCM will sell a bunch of them.

i really like mine.

peabody

[rob_s]

MOE came in, as did the IWC QD sling swivel socket.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/BCM/photo-22.jpg

[UrbanPioneer]

For those interested, CMMG sells the following-

CMMG 16 inch M10M MedCon Rifle Upper. Mid-length gas system hidden underneath a rifle length handguard, rifle length sight radius.

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/CMMG-16-inch-M10M-Upper-978

They have some other dissy configurations and similar uppers in the MedCon line.

I own a CMMG upper and can't say enough good things about it. Would buy another.
I received my upper about three weeks after ordering it and this was in February of this year.

Here's a photo of my SPR CMMG upper http://imgur.com/a/8RhgR#9s4Fp

[HotSuppa2C1H]

BCM goodness in a dissipator? Oh Hell Yeah! I'm in for at least two...

[B4RAZ]

+1 for me. BCM dissy with a LW profile BFH would be a great general purpose gun. Im 6'5'' and even the mid-length MOE handguards are a little short for me. A dissy would be perfect.

[peabody]

interesting thread...

im a dissipator aholic ...[BD]

i just traded for a bushmaster dissipator barrel, rifle length sights, and carbean gas.

i.ve now 3 of the silly things, a delton rifle gas dissy, and cmmg middy gas, and now a carbean gas dissy.

whats the attraction ? i thinks its just the best ar hybrid out there, its what the M4 should have been. methinks ?

peabody

[Hatter]

So... time to re-liven up the old dissy thread. I'm putting together my shopping list on a build and could use a little help.

I'm looking for a drop in Front Sight Base. The ones from BCM appear F marked but not drilled and without post. The ARMS 41B looks promising but costs about $150. My usual parts source (Rainier) doesn't carry FSB's...

Does anyone know where I can locate a cheap, yet quality drop in FSB for a dissipator build? Bbl will be a 16 AAC 300 blk. If not obvious this will use a carbine gas system so the FSB doesn't need to act as a gas block, only sight.

Thanks for the help and insight!

[Rodman24]

So... time to re-liven up the old dissy thread. I'm putting together my shopping list on a build and could use a little help.

I'm looking for a drop in Front Sight Base. The ones from BCM appear F marked but not drilled and without post. The ARMS 41B looks promising but costs about $150. My usual parts source (Rainier) doesn't carry FSB's...

Does anyone know where I can locate a cheap, yet quality drop in FSB for a dissipator build? Bbl will be a 16 AAC 300 blk. If not obvious this will use a carbine gas system so the FSB doesn't need to act as a gas block, only sight.

Thanks for the help and insight!

Palmetto State Armory has them.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/1735.php

EDIT: I just realized that these aren't drilled either.

[peabody]

hummmmm ???
i trimmed down an m4 16" barrel to lightweight ...ordered a MI extended rifle length free float.
shaved down the fsb...and magpul flip ups....
another dissy is born.... :)
peabody