what ammo choices are best and what are people using?

[BobinLaConner]

I am really picking up a lot of valuable information from reading through all the great threads. I didn't see any threads that simply listed what ammo choices most people are going with or what the top choices are with the best chances for success. I'm not up to speed on reloading or ballistic stats, but I know there are many factors that go into choosing the right ammo and that I should find what works best in my gun and fits the need. And I may be getting ahead of myself since I don't have it yet, but the gun will be the DDM4 V5 16" CHF barrel.

What would be good recommendations to start with? I would think I should have several types of ammo on hand to cover several needs...I would sure appreciate suggestions on what the favorites are for each category (or if other categories should be added or whether .223 or 5.56 would work best).

1) Plinking/target round (priced to own a large quantity, but still good performance, does not have to be the cheapest)


2) Accurate target round for sighting in (maybe items 1 and 2 can be the same ammo?)


3) 100 - 150 yd coyote/varmint round (for dropping and stopping, not necessarily fur, I was thinking the Nosler factory ammo?)


4) Best Defense large mammal stopping round (Home Defense or possibly SHTF)


Thanks for any feedback, I will do my own testing, but this info will help me get there a little quicker.

B

[Quib]

Some reading here: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2443-What-Kind-of-Ammo-do-you-use

[TehLlama]

If you need further resources, Molon and DocGKR's posts (ARF, M4C, LF) are also incredibly insightful, don't be afraid to take a full week reading all the different sources.

[Paulo_Santos]

The Hornady 55 and 60 GR TAP make good self defense rounds and great for varmints. The Hornady 75 GR TAP is good for everything, but a little more expensive to use as a plinking round. For plinking, I'd use whatever I could get my hands on such as M193.

[HS2]

I've tried a variet of M193 clones. For general practice I have had the best results with Fiochhi 55 FMJ. Not a true M193, but very consistent at about 35 cnts / round.

For target / precision shooting, any of the 50-55 grn ballistic tip rounds work great.

Haven't tried the Horandy 55 or 60 TAP. I agree with paulsantos... the 75 TAP is excellent.

[Captains1911]

Hornaday TAP (75gr) should fulfill the requirements for items 2, 3 & definitely 4. It is expensive though.

[TehLlama]

Hornaday TAP (75gr) should fulfill the requirements for items 2, 3 & definitely 4. It is expensive though.

I agree with this - for now I'm set up with a lot of PRVI 75gr practice ammunition and a line of mags filled with TAP in 75gr.
I think there's always a place for affordable 55gr blasting stuff, though a well thought out 55gr load should be a fantastic all-around performer within reasonable range.
I'm looking at making a switch to 62gr (M855/62grFMJ mixed with Barnes TSX and/or Mk318SOST) for my shorter weapons and using up my 75gr on 18" guns.

[PD Sgt.]

For practice/plinking, I have had good results with the Hornady practice TAP ammo. It is steel cased, which turns some people away, but it can be found at a good price and has run just fine in my guns. It is also nice because the reloader in me does not feel bad about not scrounging up all the casings and saving/cleaning them, etc.

I also recommend the regular TAP ammo for duty/defense, though I have only used the 60 grain bullets. The 75g are probably a bit more useful in a wider variety of applications though.

[billyblooshoes]

i just picked up a case of wolf military classic. its going to be the first steel cased ammo ive run through my AR. have not shot any of it yet though. i was wary of trying it before with the laquer coating, but now they have done away with that and it has some sort of teflon coating or something. many people ive talked to run it for target as well as competition with no issues at all. i'll report back with my experience once i run some through. assuming it performs well, the price is right at around 200 shipped per 1000.

[Hatter]

I shoot Ultramax soft tip. I've found it to be extremely reliable and hella accurate - good enough for home defense and prairie dogs at 300 yds with Leupold CQ/T. I'm forced to the soft tip because I shoot a lot of indoor at my local range. I was getting a good price on it in bulk but I think they're moving to a cheaper Fiocchi alternative.

Anyone have any good leads on bulk orders of soft tip ammo?

Thanks!

[Dos Cylindros]

Don't over complicate things. The 55 grain is the cheapest and easiest to come by in all ammo types. Sight in with 55 grain and make your actual carry round 55 grain and you will be good to go for most purposes. The heavier weights, do have a good reputation with the military, but what most people don't realize is that they wanted retained energy at distance (several hundred meters), and the 55 grain was not doing this. For typical civilian and LE engagement ranges (usually well within 100 yards) the 55 grain is devestating and effective because it still has a good amount of velocity which is what the 55 grain requires to be terminally effective. My current agency issue is 64 grain, however our range loads are 55 grain, which translates to a different POA/POI between the two rounds. I sight in with 64 grain on my duty gun and just ignor the POA/POI shift with the training rounds. My personal HD carbine is sighted in with 55 grain and I carry 55 grain in it for the KISS factor.

[Wondering Beard]

Don't over complicate things..

That's probably the most important statement here.

There is a bewildering array of ammo choices out there, most of which doesn't offer much improvement over each other. 62grs here, 64grs there, 77grs here, 75 grs there; a change of a few grains is highly unlikely to make a difference.

Sight in the gun for whatever round is going to be your carry round, practice with 55gr loads.

For " large mammal" as you put it, most everything will work fine. If you have special needs (like penetrating through glass or car bodies for a lot of LEOs), then certain rounds are better than others at those specific jobs but outside of that, it tends to be a bit of a wash.

Quality ammo from a quality manufacturer will take care of you fine.

[BobinLaConner]

thanks...I tend to think the same way. My primary concern will be learning from others good or bad experience and getting quality ammo that has the reliability. I will try several of the brands/types recommended here to see what the gun (and I) shoot best with.

[Op4guy]

Personally I have been shooting the Tula .223 exclusively for almost a year now and have had no complaints with it:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2622-Tula-ammo-report

I know it may not be the highest quality ammo out there but for training ammo it has done very well. I do keep a stock of M855 on hand in case I need it but it's only about 500 rounds and gets rotated annually. If i were to burn through that for some SHTF situation I would fall back on the Tula without batting an eye as I know it performs well in my guns. Like Dos said, don't over think things as it will be just fine considering the distances the average person will use it at.

[Vise]

I was able to go out and shoot some BVAC 64 grain .223 this weekend and I was very impressed. This ammunition held 1moa in my 16" rifle all day. BVAC has not been around long. These guys started making hunting ammunition in 2008 but they know what they are doing. The stuff I got off Cheaper than dirt was relatively inexpensive but it is very accurate. I like the fact that its a little heavier than your standard 55 grain stuff. Heavier bullet means marginally better ballistics and more stopping power. It is also a soft point so when you hit something it is going to open up. At $0.38/round its in the middle of the cost range but the extra $0.10/round is more than worth the quality. I will be purchasing this again in the future. The one negative remark I will make is that when I opened up the box there were a handful of rounds with the bullet pushed into the cartridge. I found 6 or 7 like that out of 500.

I have to say that buying hunting ammunition for home defense and shtf makes sense to me. When you shoot something you want it to die. I think this stuff is going to give me the best chances of hitting my target and killing what I hit. Their website is www.bvac-ammo.com
I don't work for them or anything, just giving credit where credit is due.

[Paulo_Santos]

HSM and BVAC are two good companies that are often overlooked. Darren used to be the manager at HSM and left to start BVAC and the ammo is pretty much the same as HSM. I'm waiting on some HSM 5.56 75 GR Tactical to come in and test so I can do a write up on it. $26 for 50 rounds of 75 GR ammo is great price. I have some history with Darren when he was at HSM with the 5.56 75 GR Tactical, which I'll get into after the testing is complete.

[Stocks]

I like to shoot IMI 55 grain 5.56 for target practice. Costs about $389 a case of 1200 and it is really good quality ammo. For actual duty carry ammo, I use only 62 grain TAP 5.56. The PMC bronze 223 ammo shoots well and is inexpensive. I would stay away from the steel case ammo and that WOLF crap.

[2ATA]

The only training ammo I use is Brown Bear, Wolf, or Silver Bear. When you can get those for under 200 per K, you get almost twice as much training in for the cost of brass. I have had no problems with any of these 'lesser grades" of ammo. For example my SCAR has digested 5,800rds of Brown Bear and Wolf since June without a problem. My Noveske is now near 11,000 without an ammo related stoppage. Yoour mileage may vary.

[BobinLaConner]

Update: So while I have been researching ammo choices online and everywhere else while keeping up with the replies on this thread every day... Then today, I was driving back from a meeting and there was this sporting goods place at the next exit, so I just had to stop and look at gun stuff. I went into Sportco ( a local discount sporting goods place near Tacoma) and found myself in the ammo isle like a kid in a candy store. As I looked at all the brands and searched the specs on each box, I found the TAP 75 gr FPD that everyone seems to think highly of and bought several boxes.

I kept looking and there was this wolf ammo (55 gr FMJ steel case). I know a lot of folks have commented on bad experiences, but it was $4.88 per box of 20! So I stocked up on 10 boxes ($48 wow). I figure as bad as it might be...it still has to be ok for plinking right? Is it like bad sex or bad pizza (even though it is bad, it's still pretty good)? I figure my Daniel Defense should run it pretty well, but time will tell and it will have to prove out.

So I am going to run several different ammo types and see what runs best. I will try the wolf but at this point my hope is to stock up on some more TAP 75 and then find a good lower cost plinking round like the TAP training or the Fiochi 62 gr to use for most range practice. Then possibly buy a little lighter weight (40 gr) v-max for small varmints (like the Hornady varmint Express)

So I guess that means...

General plinking and range use - TAP Practice or Fiochi 62 gr (or other similar "value" round)
Critical use for HD or SHTF - TAP 75 Gr
Small Varmint - Hornady Varmint Express - Vmax or Nosler Varmint

anything else I am forgetting or any comments?

[Wondering Beard]

Daniel Defense rifles have a 1/7 twist and might over stabilize (i.e. cause break up in mid air) really light bullets (50grs and under).

It is my understanding that that 55gr VMax bullets are excellent for Varmints and are highly likely to hit at the same POA/POI as 55gr practice rounds.

Other than that small matter you sound like you have things well in hand.

[TehLlama]

General plinking and range use - TAP Practice or Fiochi 62 gr (or other similar "value" round)
Critical use for HD or SHTF - TAP 75 Gr
Small Varmint - Hornady Varmint Express - Vmax or Nosler Varmint

anything else I am forgetting or any comments?

I'm pretty happy with this setup for now (PPU 55gr for bulk, PPU 75gr HPBT for distance plinking, and TAP FPD 75gr for the rest - it's .223 pressure round (not ideal for an SBR if you're looking to maximize fragmentation range)
Steel case can be finnicky, but once you've got your rifle able to run it (without having to make buffer/spring swaps that compromise your duty load) then you're money ahead.

[AR-10]

For plinking I stock up on Lake City XM193.

My HD carbine is full of 75gr TAP.

[AR-10]

HSM and BVAC are two good companies that are often overlooked. Darren used to be the manager at HSM and left to start BVAC and the ammo is pretty much the same as HSM. I'm waiting on some HSM 5.56 75 GR Tactical to come in and test so I can do a write up on it. $26 for 50 rounds of 75 GR ammo is great price. I have some history with Darren when he was at HSM with the 5.56 75 GR Tactical, which I'll get into after the testing is complete.

Will this be available to civilians?

I can only get 75gr TAP in .223

[Grrrr]

For basic ar plinking I use whatever I can get that's inexpensive including wolf.......still can't find any tap 5.56.

[neo9710]

Anyone use the Black Hills .223 75 grain Match HP? A friend recommended it to me as my HD ammo because I couldnt find any of the TAP ANYWHERE!!!

[BobinLaConner]

Just wanted to check back in with an update...
I have been to the range several times and having fun shooting up all kinds of ammo with the little DDM4. I used up a lot of the Wolf cheap stuff and no hiccups whatsoever...although as some have mentioned, it smelled kind of weird. Then I shot some of the Fiochi 62 gr, no problems, then the Hornady 75 in both the practice round and the TAP version...again with no problems. At this point I am still getting used to the gun and the ammo is probably more capable than I am, so any previous thoughts by me that it would make a difference what ammo I bought (other than cheap crap) was kind of naive. "Just shoot it" for a while and then see what works best was good advice. I will keep shooting and see how the Hornady works out (I have confidence that it will be great). When I can print some tight groups at the range, I will test out some different rounds in my gun to see what it likes.
But at any rate, I bought some of the Hornady to have on hand, while I have some fun plinking away with various ammo types. Train, shoot, learn, then buy, then train and shoot some more I guess.

If I come to any real decisions I will post it up

[Anthony.L]

For practice/range duty I shoot Federal Lake City XM193. $290 for a case of 1000.

[tac40]

Lake City XM193 for practice ammo, prices are resonable. Defensive rds such as Hornady TAP 75 or Black Hill 77gr is a good choice. Dr Gary Roberts offers up good tactical rds to use.

"For LE Patrol use, where there is a high incidence of potential engagements around or involving vehicles, ammunition that is able to effectively penetrate intermediate barriers, particularly vehicle glass is critical. The best LE 5.56 mm/.223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2). The Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP, Remington 62 gr bonded JSP, Speer 64 gr Gold Dot JSP, Swift 75 gr Scirrocco PT are also good choices. The Barnes all copper TSX bullets are great projectiles and offer good penetration through barriers, however, when first hitting a laminated automobile windshield intermediate barrier, the TSX bullets exhibit less expansion than a TBBC, as the Barnes jacket either collapses at the nose, the jacket "petals" fold back against the core, or the "petals" are torn off; this results in a caliber size projectile configured a lot like a full wadcutter, leading to deep penetration. This phenomena has been documented by the FBI BRF, as well as being noted in our testing. None of the .223 OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer acceptable performance through automobile windshield glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ is also not very good against glass. For military use, the M995 AP is the best choice for vehicles and glass.

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and JSP loads can offer good performance. If your expected engagement scenarios are at typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then either 5.56 mm or .223 SAAMI pressure loads are fine. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. NOTE: With 1/12 twists, the best choices are the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1 or P223T2) or Barnes 45 or 55 gr TSX bullets in order to ensure adequate penetration (Note: the Barnes 53 gr TSX is a bit longer than the 55 gr TSX due to a different ogive and does not stabilize as consistently in all 1/12 twist barrels).

For longer range precision weapons (like the Mk12) with faster 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM--which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects.

Short barreled 5.56 mm weapons, such as the Colt Commando, Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc…offer advantages in confines spaces. If SBR’s are used with 1/7 twist barrels, the 62 or 70 gr Barnes TSX, the 75 gr Swift Scirroco PT, 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance, as do all the bullets recommended for slower twists. For 1/9 twist SBR’s, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tactical bonded JSP's, the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP, or the lighter Barnes TSX’s. Remember, with SBR’s, effective engagement distances are significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

Keep in mind, that with non-fragmenting bullet designs, heavier bullet weights are not necessarily better, especially at closer ranges and from shorter barrels. As long as penetration and upset remain adequate, it is possible to use lighter weight non-fragmenting bullets and still have outstanding terminal performance. With fragmenting designs, a heavier bullet is ideal, as it provides more potential fragments and still allows the central core to have enough mass for adequate penetration. In addition, heavier bullets may have an advantage at longer ranges due to better BC and less wind drift.

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in LE training courses. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.

A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise."

Dr G Roberts.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf info on 556 vs 6.8

[AR-10]

That last paragraph is interesting, I wonder if there have been any problems with the .223 TAP.