Sanity Check: Looking to acquire first AR.

[corlissimo]

Calling all Yoda types,

This is my first post here and I've been reading as much as I can for ther last few weeks. Great site! No drama, just good information presented in a courteous and professional manner. Lovin' it!

Recently I've been contemplating getting into my first AR and figured that I don't know what I don't know so it would be best to seek out some sound advice. At first I was going to try to build my own AR, but now I think that I'd be better off going with a complete AR for my first one. Below are some notes I've been making as I've been working through just what I want from an AR.

I'm eager to learn and would appreciate any and all comments, suggestions, and thoughts on what I have so far. I'm still saving and budget is a concern, but quality is important as well. I don't want to cut corners, but also don't want to overbuild either. I just want the basics to be solid since it's my first AR and I want it to last a while with minimal/no headaches.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.


---------------------------------------------------
Personal Info:
LH shooter;
No .mil or LEO experience.
Only other rifle experience has been with bolt guns.
Have shotgun & handgun experience.

Training will be taken with the AR after I have it.
---------------------------------------------------

AR Build Requirements

Purpose:
Primary use - Defensive/SHTF bug out gun (Good to 300 yds).
Low maintenance (not at expense of durability/reliability)
Spare parts availability
Rugged lower & Upper that can survive in an extended SHTF situation

Type:
DIGS only.
Probably M4 carbine for ease of maneuverability.
Flat-top preferred but not required.
No Full float rails needed. Standard forearm/heatshield is best for now.


CRITERIA:
1. Low cost
2. Simple configuration (w/o compromising future mods)
3. Ambi fire controls
4. Light weight
5. Adjustable stock
6. RDS (co-wit to BUIS)
7. BUIS
8. 5.56 NATO
9. Chrome lined chamber & barrel



I currently have my eyes on the Spike's Tactical ST-15 M4 LE Carbine (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=387) as a good quality starter to build on.

[Stickman]

Great site! No drama, just good information presented in a courteous and professional manner.



---------------------------------------------------
Personal Info:
LH shooter;
No .mil or LEO experience.
Only other rifle experience has been with bolt guns.
Have shotgun & handgun experience.

Training will be taken with the AR after I have it.
---------------------------------------------------

AR Build Requirements

Purpose:
Primary use - Defensive/SHTF bug out gun (Good to 300 yds).
Low maintenance (not at expense of durability/reliability)
Spare parts availability
Rugged lower & Upper that can survive in an extended SHTF situation

Type:
DIGS only.
Probably M4 carbine for ease of maneuverability.
Flat-top preferred but not required.
No Full float rails needed. Standard forearm/heatshield is best for now.


CRITERIA:
1. Low cost
2. Simple configuration (w/o compromising future mods)
3. Ambi fire controls
4. Light weight
5. Adjustable stock
6. RDS (co-wit to BUIS)
7. BUIS
8. 5.56 NATO
9. Chrome lined chamber & barrel





Notice there is no general talking section? I think that helps us stay focused on weapons. No doubt we would have a much larger board if we spent time talking about other things, but the smaller, more focused site doesn't offend most posters here, and it sounds like you picked up on the general theme for WEVO.

A 300 yard weapon is a pretty standard general purpose carbine, so I think your goal is very realistic. Your comment about parts is similar to my own, and that brings us into a standard DI carbine, and eliminates the multitude of various piston setups. Most of the receivers are all forged and of similar quality. Get a decent set that are well machined and in spec, and you are good to go. I think you need to go with a flat top carbine. Even if you don't plan on adding optics right now, eventually you will, and you will find its a much better world when you do.

Low cost means different things to different people. Some guys look at a fully loaded Noveske carbine and figure they only need to buy quality once, and that is their version of cheap. Other people think that it makes more sense to buy a lower and have it shipped to their FFL, and then later order and upper and have it shipped directly to their house (saving 11% tax because the weapon is bought in two pieces instead of assembled in one piece). Other guys want to go with a BCM with the idea that its top of the line parts at a price similar to most other weapons that use lower end components. Still others are going to look at a custom builder like ADCO or Rainier Arms, and have them assemble what they want instead of buying stock and swapping parts later.


Questions that I have for you include:

1. What is a realistic price for you right now?

2. Are you able to make your purchase buying them in groups instead of all at one time if you get a better weapon that way?

3. Have you thought about a midlength gas system instead of a carbine?

4. Have you thought about a custom build so you can get your ambiparts installed at the same time?

[oregonshooter]

I'd say you did your homework. If I was going to buy AR15s for SHTF handout and wanted them to be 100% reliable.... that is the gun I would pick.

If you even think you are going to want to change things for higher end stocks, etc. then I would buy a LMT/Bravo/Spikes upper and build my own lower.


CRITERIA:
1. Low cost
2. Simple configuration (w/o compromising future mods)
3. Ambi fire controls
4. Light weight
5. Adjustable stock
6. RDS (co-wit to BUIS)
7. BUIS
8. 5.56 NATO
9. Chrome lined chamber & barrel


3 & 9 I would not call deal breakers.

RDS = Aimpoint H-1 or T-1 on Larue medium height and just about any BUIS will do. I started with a Larue fixed but like a fold down much better.

I'm sure you have seen the "explain your setup" thread on here?

[Op4guy]

There are so many options it is damn near mind boggling. I don't know where you live but I will assume it is a state that does not have stupid restrictions (CA,NY,MA) so here goes:

Either a carbine or mid-length gas system upper is what I would choose:
- Bravo Company Upper Standard is $385 . Add a BCG for $135 and totals $520
-MOE handguards $30
-Stripped lower is as low as $80. Add a parts kit for $65.
-Mil Spec stock kit (has it all) is $65
-RDS is up to you. Aimpoints go for $400 or you can go with a Primary Arms for $100.
-BUIS can run as little as $90 for MBUS F/R. Though the front is prone to losing the sight post so you might want to consider a different one there.



Pretty much that can run you as little as about $800 (depending on RDS and sights). Other things to consider if you are going to use it as a SHTF
-Weapons light: A simple Surefire G2 in a mount would work just fine
-Sling: Get a good one and I would highly recommend against a single point. Convertible is OK but strictly single point sucks if you find the need to sling it and move.
-Magazines: Don't just settle for a couple that are cheap. Mags are disposable so you should have plenty ready.


Don't get all bound up on having ambi controls off the bat. Though if you are I would suggest the Knight's Ambi mag release. Runs about $60 and way better than the Norgon. I have no experience with the Troy model yet. For ambi fire controls I really like the BAD-ASS by Battle Arms Development. It is the highest quality group that I have seen to date and I like how modular it is.

Almost everything I listed can be bought directly through Bravo Company USA. All high quality, stuff that will last and not break the bank in the process.


-Op4

[willardcw4]

I think a Spikes rifle is a really good way to go, whether or not it is the lightweight version of their M4 model.

You could also purchase an upper, like a Spikes upper, and lower separately. This way you could have some more customization options to your lower (i.e. magpul gear) if you wanted. Palmetto State Armory sells moe kits as a part of their lower parts kits (LPKs). http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-build-kits.php

I'd say number 9 is something you want in your rifle considering your primary concern isn't accuracy. Chrome lining makes cleaning easier and extends the life of the barrel.

B.A.D.A.S.S. is a pretty popular ambi selector that came out a while back. Lots of positive feedback.

I'd go with a flat top upper.

Keep in mind that the only part of the AR-15 that has to be "called in" with the serial number is the lower receiver. The upper you can order separately and not deal with an FFL. If you want to build your lower, buying a stripped lower and parts kit plus MOE gear (like I mentioned with palmetto state armory) is a good way to save some money and will make you much more familiar with the weapon (It's what I did for my first build and I definitely would recommend it).

You could buy an assembled lower if you didn't want to put it together: https://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=33&products_id=818&zenid=cbe82a08ba11e034dc9f29a439464c9b
or https://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=33&products_id=819&zenid=cbe82a08ba11e034dc9f29a439464c9b

And then pick up an upper: http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XSTU5023&groupid=55
or http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XSTU5035&groupid=55

[Aragorn]

Solid choice to meet your list of criteria. I don't know that ambi controls are necessary unless you're a southpaw however, and I wouldn't go with a carry handle either. Adds too much weight and covers the entire top rail; space you'll need when you get your RDS. However, if you want all the adjustment found in a carry handle, check out LMT's rear BUIS. If not you could go with a MBUS and save yourself some money.

You could also slap a MOE hand guard on there as a cheap alternative to the standard forearm. In doing that, Mount-N-Slot would make your life a lot easier when it comes time to accessorize.

I also VERY strongly agree with this quote.

If you even think you are going to want to change things for higher end stocks, etc. then I would buy a LMT/Bravo/Spikes upper and build my own lower....especially since the upper would still come with an ST-T2 Buffer.

As a personal preference I'd pay the 10 bucks to have the bayonet lug removed. It's just extra weight in the form of unneeded material.

[Stickman]

-BUIS can run as little as $90 for MBUS F/R. Though the front is prone to losing the sight post so you might want to consider a different one there.

-Op4



When did you have a MBUS have the front sight post fall out?

[Eric]

If I were to make a new purchase on a complete factory carbine right now, I would look hard at the Colt 6720 (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2042-Colt-6720). It comes with the LW barrel used on a 6520, instead of the M4 countoured barrel that makes no sense for the majority us (unless you have an M203 to mount).

[rob_s]

If I were to make a new purchase on a complete factory carbine right now, I would look hard at the Colt 6720 (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2042-Colt-6720). It comes with the LW barrel used on a 6520, instead of the M4 countoured barrel that makes no sense for the majority us (unless you have an M203 to mount).

IMHO this is the best thing going in the market right now, especially as a first AR.

However, it's gotten increasingly hard to try to explain to people why they should pay $300-400 more for this than for the Spike's equivalent, or even the midlength version of same (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443). So long as the differential is spent on training, ammunition, and magazines and not on fluff and bling I think the Spike's is a good starting point.

[TehLlama]

Didn't beat Rob to the 6720 suggestion, but that's where I'd look first.
A BCM or Daniel Defense basic rifle with MOE handguard is next in line.
The Spike's LE model is the best one they make, and it's really hard to argue against that price.

The BADSS ambi kit is pretty attractive - the Norgon magazine catch is also worth looking into - I'd focus on having a function base rifle then these modifications.
I'm partial to DD Fixed rear sights, or TROY Folding models. Both will retain a fair bit of resale, but my MBUS aren't really lacking either.

I'd wait on the optic - RDS makes loads of sense, but do some careful research, and then it will probably be between an Aimpoint Micro, Aimpoint CompM3, or EOTech XPS, but these aren't the only possibilities - just be aware of their approximate prices.

To include in your cost calculations:
For now, I'd get at least a half dozen PMags with it.
A solid sling - BlueForceGear's VCAS Victory is a good starting point - but lots of others are great.
A case of good brass 5.56 ammunition - XM195 or M855 clone stuff is a good starting point.

Also be aware that you'll likely be considering mounting a weaponlight on it. It can be as simple as an MOE Handguard, VTAC light mount and Surefire G2L light (under $100).

[Eric]

IMHO this is the best thing going in the market right now, especially as a first AR.

However, it's gotten increasingly hard to try to explain to people why they should pay $300-400 more for this than for the Spike's equivalent, or even the midlength version of same (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443). So long as the differential is spent on training, ammunition, and magazines and not on fluff and bling I think the Spike's is a good starting point.

Agreed. About the only reason I don't jump on the Spikes deal is my lack of personal experience with them. I've handled several and like what I see in the specs, but I need to get out and put rounds down range. I'd like to see a 16" LW mid with MOE goodies.

[woodwrkr]

---------------------------------------------------
Personal Info:
LH shooter;
ST-15 M4 LE Carbine (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=387) as a good quality starter to build on.

Some of the companies, Stag Arms in particular comes to mind, offer a true dedicated left hand AR-15 but nobody seems to be mentioning them. Is there some particular reason for not looking at one of the left hand AR's?

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_21&products_id=212

[corlissimo]

Apologies for this long response. :o

Thanks for the responses so far guys. I've been trying to respond to the posts here but technical difficulties have prevented me until now. (Thanks for fixing me up Mr. Hwang! :cool:)

In that time, I think I've changed my selection from an M4 Carbine with Carbine gas system, to an M4 Carbine with a Mid-length System (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443). My research shows that it should shoot a little softer (good since I want the missus to try it & possibly run it too) as well as run longer and more reliably. Are my conclusions correct? Also, one other pertinent detail I left out of my first post: I want this AR to be mil-spec only as I believe that will serve me better in the long run as well.

Oregon_Shooter-
I agree that #3 & #9 aren't deal breakers. I'm also thinking that a flip-up rear is the way I'd be going. I'll likely figure out which one after I have the AR and learn to shoot it well with the supplied battle sights, assuming I go with the Spike's model I listed.

BTW: Nice to see some folks from SGW over here too Jim. Makes it feel like home. [:)]

Op4guy-
Thanks for the parts list breakdown. I have tried to generate my own in the recent past but I don't know the AR platform well enoughl. However, both you and willardcw4 have got me thinking about doing my own build again. My concerns are: how to avoid crappy/questionable components (mainly the lower), without overspending or losing reliability.

I will probably have a light on it and I have a couple spare G2's laying around here (I'm a flashlight junkie). I'll also probably put on a Specter 2 pt. sling as I like their stuff and my experiences have been good with them on my shotgun. I'll need the ambi safety as I am a LH shooter and it just makes sense. From my research, and from talking to a couple local guys who offer training, I'd be using a mix of USGI and PMags as my budget permits.


rob_s & TehLlama-
If I do stay with the Spike's stuff, they also offer a Samson folding rear sight instead of the A2 carry handle. I have an inquiry in to them as to whether the sight is a dual aperture or a single. Either way, I'd like to get competent with the irons before moving to any RDS. I'd need that anyway if the RDS ever failed me so it's a "win" either way. When the time comes for an RDS, I know I'd love an Aimpoint but don't know what the prices will be then.

Right now, I can find some nice EOTech 512's (new) around here for around $350 which is more affordable for me compared to the $600 price (:eek:) on the smaller Aimpoints. I gotta admit that the Aimpoint is very attractive, especially because of its' battery utilization, which creates real ease of use and might make it worth it for me. We'll see.

As far as the Colts go, I don't know about them at all but there's a similar model for sale at a local shop I hang out at, though I don't know the model for sure. It's brand new (in the "Used" rack) and never been fired, comes with 3 USGI mags (30rd), 6 PMags (30rd), a VFG (which I don't really want), Harris bi-pod on QD, and a tactical hardcase. All that for $1100 (asking price). It's been in there for a couple months now and if I had the cash I might just have walked out with it by now... if I had the cash. I could probably offer less and get it, but again, still no cash yet. :rolleyes:

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback, it really is helpful. I look forward to more advice/comments/suggestions if you feel like offering them.

[corlissimo]

Apologies for this long response.

Thanks for the responses so far guys. I've been trying to respond to the posts here but technical difficulties have prevented me until now. (Thanks for fixing me up Mr. Hwang!)

In that time, I think I've changed my selection from an M4 Carbine with Carbine gas system, to an M4 Carbine Mid-Length System (http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443). My research shows that it should shoot a little softer (good since I want the missus to try it out too) as well as run longer and more reliably. Are my conclusions correct? Also, one other pertinent detail I left out of my first post: I want this AR to be mil-spec only as I believe that will serve me better in the long-run as well.

Oregon_Shooter-
I agree that #3 & #9 aren't deal breakers. I'm also thinking that a flip-up rear is the way I'd be going. I'll likely figure out which one after I have the AR and learn to shoot it well with the supplied battle sights, assuming I go with the Spike's model I listed.
BTW: Nice to see some folks from SGW over here too Jim. Makes it feel like home. :)


Op4guy-
Thanks for the parts list breakdown. I have tried to generate my own in the recent past but I don't know the AR platform at all. However, both you and willardcw4 have got me thinking about doing my own build again. My concerns are: how to avoid crappy/questionable components (mainly the lower) parts without overspending or losing reliability.

I will probably have a light on it and I have a couple spare G2's laying around here (I'm a flashlight junkie). I'll also probably put on a Specter 2 pt. sling as I like their stuff and my experiences have been good with them on my shotgun. I'll need the ambi safety as I am a LH shooter and it just makes sense. From my research, and from talking to a couple local guys who offer training, I'd either be using USGI or PMags.


If I do stay with the Spike's stuff, they also offer a Samson folding rear sight instead of the A2 carry handle. I have an inquiry in to them as to whether the sight is a dual aperture or a single. Either way, I'd like to get competent with the irons before moving to any RDS.


rob_s & TehLlama-
If I do stay with the Spike's stuff, they also offer a Samson rear sight instead of the A2 carry handle. I have an inquiry in to them as to whether the sight is a folder or fixed. Either way, I'd like to get competent with the irons before moving to any RDS. I'd need that anyway if the RDS ever failed me so it's a "win" either way. When the time comes for an RDS, I know I'd love an Aimpoint but don't know what the prices will be. I can find some nice EOTech 512's (new) around here for around $350 which is more affordable for me. But I gotta say I do like the battery life of the Aimpoints and I understand their reputation is excellent.

As far as the Colts go, I don't know about them at all but there's a similar model for sale at a local shop I hang out at, though I don't know the model for sure. It's new & has never been fired, comes with 3 USGI mags (30rd), 6 PMags (30rd), a VFG (which I don't really want), Harris bi-pod on QD, and a tactical hardcase. All that for $1100 (asking price). It's been in there for a couple months now and if I had the cash I might just have walked out with it. I could probably offer less and get it, but again, I still don't have the cash.

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback, it really is helpful.

[corlissimo]

Some of the companies, Stag Arms in particular comes to mind, offer a true dedicated left hand AR-15 but nobody seems to be mentioning them. Is there some particular reason for not looking at one of the left hand AR's?

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_21&products_id=212

No particular reason. I just hadn't looked at Stag... until I read your post just now.
I tried to read some reviews about the 1L & 2L but could not. Since I have yet to shoot and AR I'm interested in understanding the challenges posed to LH shooters by its' standard (RH) configuration.
Is it a problem with ejected brass, gases, and/or some other issue(s)?

Thanks in advance for the assist.

[corlissimo]

Some of the companies, Stag Arms in particular comes to mind, offer a true dedicated left hand AR-15 but nobody seems to be mentioning them. Is there some particular reason for not looking at one of the left hand AR's?

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_21&products_id=212

Thanks for bringing the Stag option to my attention. I was not aware that there were dedicated LH AR15's available out there.
I like the idea of it but am curious as to where the benefits come from exactly.
Some potential issues with a lefty using a RH AR that I can see are:
1. brass ejection closer to face
2. excessive gases/fumes
3. some controls related items (mag release, bolt release, safety, etc)

Since I'm used to using RH guns already I don't know if these will be a problem for me or not. An ambi ssfety is a must for me. Not sure how I'll be with the bolt release or mag release, although I've read that sometimes LH shooters mights actually prefer the standard mag release. Since I've yet to run an AR I have no true perspective on these matters.

Would the benefits of going to a dedicated LH model, with its' limited availability of parts, outweigh the benefits of staying with a standard AR and learning to live with some of it's RH features (or changing what I want to) in order to preserve parts availability?

This is the biggest question I have about the LH models. Can anyone speak to these points?

Thanks

[SierraCharlie121]

Some of the companies, Stag Arms in particular comes to mind, offer a true dedicated left hand AR-15 but nobody seems to be mentioning them. Is there some particular reason for not looking at one of the left hand AR's?

http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_21&products_id=212

Hi, Corlissimo here. This "SierraCharlie121" account is a new user I've created since I've been experiencing posting issues with my original account. [BD]

Thanks for bringing the Stag option to my attention. I was not aware that there were dedicated LH AR15's available out there.
I like the idea of it but am curious as to where the benefits come from exactly.
Some potential issues with a lefty using a RH AR that I can see are:
1. brass ejection closer to face
2. excessive gases/fumes
3. some controls related items (mag release, bolt release, safety, etc)

Since I'm used to using RH guns already I don't know if these will be a problem for me or not. An ambi ssfety is a must for me. Not sure how I'll be with the bolt release or mag release, although I've read that sometimes LH shooters mights actually prefer the standard mag release. Since I've yet to run an AR I have no true perspective on these matters.

Would the benefits of going to a dedicated LH model, with its' limited availability of parts, outweigh the benefits of staying with a standard AR and learning to live with some of it's RH features (or changing what I want to) in order to preserve parts availability?

This is the biggest question I have about the LH models. Can anyone speak to these points?

Thanks
Corlissimo

[corlissimo]

woodwrkr,

Thanks for bringing the Stag option to my attention. I was not aware that there were dedicated LH AR15's available out there.
I like the idea of it but am curious as to where the benefits come from exactly.
Some potential issues with a lefty using a RH AR that I can see are:
1. brass ejection closer to face
2. excessive gases/fumes
3. some controls related items (mag release, bolt release, safety, etc)

Since I'm used to using RH guns already I don't know if these will be a problem for me or not. An ambi ssfety is a must for me. Not sure how I'll be with the bolt release or mag release, although I've read that sometimes LH shooters mights actually prefer the standard mag release. Since I've yet to run an AR I have no true perspective on these matters.

Would the benefits of going to a dedicated LH model, with its' limited availability of parts, outweigh the benefits of staying with a standard AR and learning to live with some of it's RH features (or changing what I want to) in order to preserve parts availability?

This is the biggest question I have about the LH models. Can anyone speak to these points, because in my mind I think the parts availability (based upon my original criteria) is something I value more than shooter "convenience features".

Thanks

[corlissimo]

I like the MOE handguards and will likely use those based upon the feedback I've received. Thanks.
As far as building my own lower is concerned, I'm not sure which one's are good and what features to include. From my reading, billet is better, but forged are more affordable and will likely meet my needs nicely, so I know I'd go with a forged lower. But that's where my knowledge/confidence ends. The only other thing I know for sure is that I want the AR to follow MIL SPEC as much as possible.

Is it safe to say that I would just need to order certain pin sets, fire control group, stock of choice, etc in order to complete my build? What about staking the castle nut on the buffer tube? Am I just making this more complicated than it needs to be?

[TehLlama]

Billet is certainly not 'better' per se, but can be much more attractive to some. I have three sets of billet receivers, and I'm replacing them with forged units.
For the most part any in-spec lower will do, so choosing on roll mark and then checking to see if they've had issues with any out-of-spec dimensions might be a workable strategy. The only consistently appearing concern is if certain magazines will drop free.

I'd limit the LPK search to higher end ones - Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, (G&R), (WOA), or CMT/Stag - I've owned at least one of each of these, and they're all pretty highly regarded.
Swapping in certain components (especially with the G&R kits) is possible - new triggers (the G&R and WOA can be had without FCU's), Norgon catch, and ambi selectors are all parts you can include off the bat.

The rifle will run without the castle nut being staked - it's just a wise move to stake it if it will be seeing hard use.

If you still want to run a southpaw rifle, Rainier has (or had) the best option for this - their barrel/upper pairings could include the CMT/Stag Left Handed upper receiver with matching barrel extensions, but I'm not sure how they have those in their shop at the moment. The only issue with these is their non-standard nature, so if you're the type who stockpiles spare parts, you'll want spares for all the southpaw-modified operating components.

[m249saw]

I agree with teh llama, Ive had a few billet pieces and from now on just staying with quality forged parts. Forged uppers for example are all pretty much a certain spec, where as billet are not. I ran into an issue mounting a Larue Rail on a Mega billet upper, but it fit great with the Rainier billet.