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mlosi762
4 November 2010, 11:09
Hey fellas-

I'm looking for an opinion, specifically an LEO's, on good ammo choices for use inside my home (should the need arise of course). I live in a townhouse, with neighbors on both sides, and rows of homes directly behind, and in front of my place. My biggest fear is that IF I did have to use a firearm, that the round could easily penetrate one of the walls and enter a neighbors place. As a kid across the street proved a few years ago while playing with his dads .22 and had a ND. The round not only went into the house next door, but completely through it, into the living room of the house 2 doors down. Thankfully nobody was home at any of the houses when it happened. But I was surprised that a .22, had that much penetration through multiple walls. I consider myself extremely proficient with firearms, but as many of us who have been in a firefight know, accuracy can go to complete crap when the SHTF. And as far as being aware of my target, and what’s behind it, it’s basically neighbors, in all directions.

That being said, I would never consider my AR for counter-burglary operations, perhaps not even my 1911. If somebody decided to break in, my go-to gun is my 870p. What I'm considering is buying some less-lethal rounds, i.e.: bean bags/rubber balls, or possibly frangible ammo, etc. something powerful enough to knock the living S out of someone, but that is less likely to over penetrate walls. I know there is a plethora of choices out there. Does anyone have experience/knowledge of a solid choice? Thanks guys.

Paulo_Santos
4 November 2010, 11:51
This is one topic that generally turns into 10 page epic threads on other forums. It is just a matter of difference of opinions. Some guys worry about over-penetration, while others want a bullet that penetrates at least 12" and don't worry about the overpenetration. If you look at all of the data, such as gell tests, most decent fragmenting type ammo penetrates from 9-14", depending on bullet type. Lots of people trash the Hornady 55 and 60 GR TAP because it doesn't penetrate the 12", yet everything I have read about officer involved shootings, the bad guys haven't lived to talk about it. The problem with the lighter bullets is that they suck through barriers, which is not an issue for you. So hoesntly, just get yourself some reliable ammo such as the Hornady 55, 60, or 75 GR TAP, or the Federal TRU ammo and don't overthink it. What I wouldn't recommend for home defense is the Barnes bullets like the 70 GR, which penetrate over 15".

mlosi762
4 November 2010, 13:00
Thanks Paulo, good advice on the Hornady ammo, I'm familiar with the product line, in fact I carry their Critical Defense in my 1911. But I'm not looking much into AR rounds for home defense purposes. More specifically I was wondering about the less-lethal shotgun rounds that are out there, and their effectiveness. It has nothing to do with be being afraid of shooting a potentially violent intruder dead, with over penetration of soft tissue, but the penetration through the few inches of drywall and sheet metal that separate me from my neighbors. Like I stated earlier, if a .22 LR fired from a Ruger pistol, went completely through an entire house, a 5.56 round would have no problems whatsoever. If I had to use lethal force on somebody who was a threat, I have no problem. But if I hurt/killed an innocent neighbor because one of my rounds went through their bedroom, I wouldn't be able forgive myself. The legal ramifications would be the least of my worries. What I want is something for my 870, with stopping/knockdown power that has little chance of going into a neighbor’s house. I’m pretty sure that even a target or small game load would still fly right through the cheaply made firewall.

Paulo_Santos
4 November 2010, 14:05
This is just my view. Shotguns penetrate nearly as far as a handgun or rifle round. With a handgun or rifle, you have to worry about 1 bullet every time you pull the trigger. With a shotgun, you have multiple projectiles every time you pull the trigger. I'd call Hornady or Federal and see what they'd recommend as far as shotgun rounds.

deadduck357
5 November 2010, 20:47
For your shotgun go with a medium weight bird shot, something like #4 or 6 shot, close range (within the confines of a house) it will take anything down and have less chance of penetrating walls.

Nothing wrong with your .45, you just have to find the right ammo for it, something slow and low powered like some of the ammo designed for short barreled handguns or low recoil ammo. Most ammo manufacturers produce these lines of ammo.

Don't jeopardize your safety to the point of not being able to defend yourself or your family.

Wondering Beard
6 November 2010, 13:06
Personally, I really wouldn't rely on less lethal ammo for a defensive shotgun.

1) we all already know that no 'lethal' ammo is at all guaranteed to "stop" anyone and 'less lethal' much less so.

2) it is my understanding that most departments allow the use of 'less lethal' ammo only if there is someone with "lethal" ammo backing the first shooter. In other words, a second officer is there in case the situation escalates from one where lethal force is probably not necessary to one where it is. When it comes to your home, if you have to point your shotgun at an intruder, it should be in a situation where lethal force is acceptable. This makes the use of 'less lethal' ammo a problem, i.e. using "less lethal" ammo can imply that you didn't think you were afraid for your life and thus had no justification to even bring a shotgun in play. This is of course a lawyer's game that has little to do with the reality of dealing with an intruder in your home but it can really screw you up.

3) what happens when you shoot the 'bad guy' with a bean bag and he keeps coming? will you have time to go to a weapon loaded with real ammo? if you "dutch load" your shotgun, do you know ahead of time how many rounds of "bean bag" are ok to shoot before you go to "lethal"? this last can create a legal nightmare ("Dutch loading" one's shotgun is bad idea in general, IMO, no matter what ammo is in there). Your answer to these questions can help you decide if "less lethal" loads may work for you.

Frankly, if you have to shoot someone in the defense of self and home, don't mess with 'less lethal' ammo, it only complicates your task. When you are justified to use lethal force, use it and no other level of force.

I sympathize greatly with your worries about overpenetration in a townhouse. I live in a townhouse myself in pretty much the same conditions you do and I have the exact same questions. My solution (so far, as I am always amenable to better answers) has been to load my 870 with #4 Birdshot and 00 buck in the sidesaddle. the birdshot will penetrate through a wall (I know of no ammo and/or caliber that won't, except perhaps Glaser and Magsafe but they have very narrow niches) but is likely to be so slowed down after that injuries to innocents can hopefully be kept light (unless an innocent is resting on the other side of that wall).

The problem with birdshot ammo of any kind is that when the cold weather sets in, it has a hell of time penetrating through the various layers of fabric. An LEO friend in Indiana told me that even with #4 Buck they couldn't reliably penetrate through to the torso and changed their aiming point to the intersection of the shoulders and neck to be assured something important would get penetrated.

I'm thinking of switching to an AR loaded with light (55grs or so) hollowpoints as the FBI has shown in a study (which for the life of me I cannot find again) that penetration through walls with such ammo is generally minimal. Those light HPs will penetrate fine through heavy clothing and the fact that they won't reach the magical 12" in gelatin bothers me not at all.

Personnally, the best way I have found to minimize the danger of my shots penetrating into a neighbors house has been to choose specific fields of fire within my home (like up and down the stairs) where the odds of a bullet going towards a common wall are much lower (though not impossible as bullets just do weird things no matter what). Of course, the actual situation will dictate when and where I shoot but knowing where the dangers of overpentration are higher, is of great help.

I am no expert and this is just my opinion, so take for what it's worth (not much [BD])

mlosi762
11 November 2010, 07:29
Thanks for all the input guys. As I stated earlier, it's not the application of lethal force that worries me, and I'm confident in my shooting abilities under stress. A "less lethal " option wasn't thought of in consideration of the bad guys. Just part of the thought process in coming up with a "what if" scenario with consideration of the surroundings. Might just end up getting some of the lower-velocity rounds for various firearms. Here's to the hope that discharging a firearm within the confines of my house never occurs. Cheers!

Wondering Beard
11 November 2010, 10:42
Small point: lower velocity by itself doesn't minimize penetration.

230gr ball or HP doesn't go terribly fast but the mass of the bullet is plenty to go through quite a few walls.

Reduce the mass and velocity and you, in turn, reduce the capability of a load to penetrate hard things but it can come at the cost of being effective on bad guys.

It's the bullet design that, the great majority of the time, makes a difference: a very fast (or very slow) bullet that is designed (incidentally or not) to break up in hard stuff will be better, for your purposes, than one with exactly the same ballistics but is an FMJ.

Good luck with your search and don't hesitate to share with us what you find. I know I am very interested [:)]

Grrrr
17 November 2010, 04:47
5.56 rounds penetrate less through walls than do most handgun and shotgun loads......unless of course you are referring to steel core penetrator rounds. Just some food for thought in case you didn't know that.

500grains
7 January 2011, 11:01
In .308, the 110 grain load is intended to eliminate overpenetration. The same theory (light bullet faster velocity, quicker breakup) could be applied to 5.56 ammo and a person could use 50 grain or 45 grain varmint bullets. Personally I plan to stick to more standard offerings, but there is no doubt the .224 50 and 45 grain varmint bullets break up very quickly.

What kind of bullets do federal air marshalls use in their handguns? I assume TSA has dealt with the overpenetration problem due to the potential for catastrophic results.

Wondering Beard
7 January 2011, 11:36
As far as I remember, Air Marshalls carry regular hollowpoints. I think they were issued P229s in 357 SIG but I'm less sure about that.

The dangers from putting a bullet hole in an airplane during flight are vastly overexagerated. From what I understand, your regular commercial plane leaks air like a sieve and the only thing you don't want to put a bullet through are the hydraulics which aren't easy to hit.

As to the TSA dealing with problems regarding anything about guns .. well, let's just say that my confidence level isn't exactly high.