New to the AR - Have questions - Need help!

[Denver45]

Hi All,

First off I just want to say that this seems to be the best forum out there for great information and no nonsense information on the AR platform and just for online forum in general. Well done gentlemen! I have thoroughly enjoyed all the posts in the last week or so.

So for the fun part~

I am looking at purchasing my first an AR in 3 or 4 months and I am trying to wrap my head around all of the available information online and I've come to the point where I'm a little confused about the difference between a plinker and something you could take into a serious battle. The intended use of this rifle will eventually be to participate in the shooting sports, have fun with on the range but also be a great dependable rifle in a SHTF type of situation.

My go-to guy sells Stag Arms rifles and they are inexpensive compared to the Noveske's and Daniel Defense type rifles out there. I've noticed that Stag Arms only has a 1x9 twist rate (no 1x7 available) and does not have the M4 feed ramps. Is this a big deal? Since the ramps are also cut into the receiver it seems like I need to know which way to go on the initial purchase unlike upgrading most internals after the fact. I already know I want to get a 1x7 twist rate for the heavier ammo so there's one upgrade right off the bat.

Am I making a big deal out of nothing or would the Stag be a mistake? I'd rather take my time and do it right. I just don't want to find out later that I blew a lot more than was necessary.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[AR-10]

Do you have a budget in mind?

I would take a long hard look at the BCM uppers.

They are 1:7" which is good if you plan on shooting the longer stuff like 75 or 77gr and the barrels on the "BFH" uppers are cold hammer forged.

Pick out an upper that fits your needs, they offer them with different length barrels and different gas systems.

Then, if you buy a complete lower receiver separately, you can avoid paying the excise tax on a complete rifle.

When figuring out your budget, don't forget to include optics (if any), back up iron sights, magazines, and whatever other accessories and mounts that you might be needing.

[Denver45]

Thanks AR-10. I am looking at about $2k for the initial investment and hopefully that covers most of or all of the big stuff. I'm looking at one of the Aimpoint red dots and also some troy flip ups for the front and back sights. I don't mind upgrading a stock here and a bolt carrier there but want to make sure I start out on the right foot and get the big purchases out of the way.

[AR-10]

For that price, you're going to have a VERY nice rifle.

I just built a 14.5" BCM carbine for my brother for $1000, but that wasn't a "BFH" barrel and didn't include an optic.

Now you need to figure out the barrel length and gas system. If I were building my first AR all over again, I'd go with a 16" mid-length like this one:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm

If you go with a barrel that is 16" or longer, you don't have to worry about a tax stamp or pinning your muzzle device to the barrel.

Did you already have your mind made up on the barrel length?

[Tucson]

I happen to like Stag but that's because I own one and have experienced zero problems after several thousand rounds. That being said, it's a buyers market out there right now. That wasn't the case when I purchased my Stag. In total I spent about what your stated budget is putting my rifle together. In today's market you can do "better".

The recommendation (above) that you look at Bravo Company Mfg (BCM) is a great advise. They are competitively priced and offer a full set of features that you'd want on a serious rifle. You should have no concern about "outgrowing" one of their rifles.

[Denver45]

I had decided on a mid-length system going back to the SHTF scenario. The less wear and tear on the bolt and carrier the better. I was just looking at some of those BCM upper assemblies and I like what I am seeing a lot more for the price. They have a 16" middy with a troy railed hand guard in dark earth. I've sort of decided that I want to end up with the DE furniture just because everything else I own is black. I think I want to stick to a barrel that doesn't have a fixed front site. I'm 5' 9" and probably need to keep the optic as low as possible in the interest of proper ergonomics and don't want the post in the way. I need to go down to the local gun show and figure out if it really matters or if I can get away with mounting the optics a little bit higher off the rail. It seems that a fixed front sight is more durable and a better, cheaper choice if it doesn't bother me.

[Denver45]

I happen to like Stag but that's because I own one and have experienced zero problems after several thousand rounds. That being said, it's a buyers market out there right now. That wasn't the case when I purchased my Stag. In total I spent about what your stated budget is putting my rifle together. In today's market you can do "better".

The recommendation (above) that you look at Bravo Company Mfg (BCM) is a great advise. They are competitively priced and offer a full set of features that you'd want on a serious rifle. You should have no concern about "outgrowing" one of their rifles.

See, I read the same reports about Stag everywhere I look. My dealer sells Stag because they do military/LE and Civy stuff and he is the local armorer for several of our local police forces and SWAT teams. Every other article I read about "battle-ready" rifles says otherwise in terms of what features and specs to look for. :-D

[Tucson]

I don't even notice the front sight post when using my optic (EoTEch 512). When shooting both eyes open and focusing on something down range the post seems to vanish... I have heard some folks say that it bothers them but the majority of those that I've spoken with experience it the same way I do. They just don't notice it.

[AR-10]

You could always do what I am doing with my fixed front sight - I'm putting an Aimpoint Micro T-1 on top of an ADM mount.

The ADM mount has a simple spacer on top that can be swapped out to change the height of the optic.

I'm trying absolute co-witness first, and if the front sight base is a problem I can simply swap the spacer and voila...lower 1/3 co-witness.

[Denver45]

You could always do what I am doing with my fixed front sight - I'm putting an Aimpoint Micro T-1 on top of an ADM mount.

The ADM mount has a simple spacer on top that can be swapped out to change the height of the optic.

I'm trying absolute co-witness first, and if the front sight base is a problem I can simply swap the spacer and voila...lower 1/3 co-witness.

I read the how-to for co-witness here on the forum. On paper I like the idea of the lower 1/3rd. I understand that how you are physically built has a lot to do with how the co-witness set up will work for you. I have a Robinson Arms VEPR (Russian RPK variant) and I loose my cheek weld trying to get my line of sight up over the irons so I never put any optics on it.

[Tucson]

It depends on what you need or think of in terms of "battle ready". No rifle I purchase will ever be capable of going full-auto and I know from my own experience that I don't use bullets heavy/long enough to cause me any issues with the set of feature that my rifle came with. That doesn't mean I don't want one of those hot rods. They just aren't in my budget at the moment.
I made my purchase decision based on a budget and the features that I wanted. I'm happy to report no issues. If I had the money to spend all over again I would look at a BCM. As a matter of fact I have my eye on one of their uppers.

[Denver45]

Awesome fellas. Looking at one of the BCM uppers and doing some number crunching I might be able to pull off the entire rifle and optics set for the $2k I'll have to invest. Of course that leaves out mags, sling, case and most importantly... ammo. Guess what's going on the Xmas wish list. :-D

[AR-10]

With that budget, you should have no problem building a rifle that you can abuse and you'll still have enough for an optic, sling and maybe a few mags if you're really good.

If you find that you can't, you might want to buy Magpul's Tactical Bargain Hunter's DVD.

Kidding, but seriously if you find you are going way over budget, let me know because I'm pretty damn good at scouring the internet for the best deals on stuff.

[TripleBravo]

Awesome fellas. Looking at one of the BCM uppers and doing some number crunching I might be able to pull off the entire rifle and optics set for the $2k I'll have to invest. Of course that leaves out mags, sling, case and most importantly... ammo. Guess what's going on the Xmas wish list. :-D

You'll always find more things to spend money on. The important thing is not to waste any money on poor products that you'll end up needing to replace. You are on the right track choosing BCM, Denver45...don't settle on inferior products to save a few bucks.

[Denver45]

With that budget, you should have no problem building a rifle that you can abuse and you'll still have enough for an optic, sling and maybe a few mags if you're really good.

If you find that you can't, you might want to buy Magpul's Tactical Bargain Hunter's DVD.

Kidding, but seriously if you find you are going way over budget, let me know because I'm pretty damn good at scouring the internet for the best deals on stuff.

Thanks! I appreciate the offer. I have a few months to work things out before I start spending money so there is plenty of time to finalize things. You gave me enough to keep me busy for a bit I think. This is the upper that caught me eye initially. I'll look through the offering probably a hundred times so we'll see what sticks. [:D]

Upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh%20trx11%20std.htm)

[Denver45]

You'll always find more things to spend money on. The important thing is not to waste any money on poor products that you'll end up needing to replace. You are on the right track choosing BCM, Denver45...don't settle on inferior products to save a few bucks.

Thanks for the input and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. My wife wants a new Kimber Aegis chambered in 9mm which I'm trying to get her for Xmas. That is going to get me a free pass on this build but that will only go so far. I need to make the most of it while I can before all the extra money goes into home improvement again. lol

[Denver45]

This really is going to turn into a sickness isn't it? I'm going to need a 12 step program as in 12 steps to the ammo and parts store.

[mlosi762]

Can't go wrong with BCM, you'll be very pleased with their products. Heartily agree with tripleBravo, don't waste money on the cheaper stuff, you'll end up spending more in the long run, and have a box full of unused junk. I could have saved myself quite a few $$$ (not to mention headaches) if I looked at them before I attempted my first build. A well made upper, with a solid BCG (BCM, LMT, etc.) is worth its weight in gold man. Currently run a 16" BFH mid, with a DD 12.0 Lite rail, and couldn't be happier with it. Another way to shave off a few bucks is to look at Magpuls MOE line for your grip and/or stock. And as great as the Troy BUIS are, you can do well with the Magpuls. Better to buy less expensive back up irons, and have more to drop on a quality optic, IMHO. When it comes to the "toys" such as VFGs, lights, lasers, ready-mags, and such; try to get a feel for them before you buy. I’ve seen allot of people deck out their guns to the fullest, only to find it too heavy or just plain impractical. Good luck, have fun with the project, and find what works for YOU. And yes, it is a sickness. lol. Cheers!

[Denver45]

Can't go wrong with BCM, you'll be very pleased with their products. Heartily agree with tripleBravo, don't waste money on the cheaper stuff, you'll end up spending more in the long run, and have a box full of unused junk. I could have saved myself quite a few $$$ (not to mention headaches) if I looked at them before I attempted my first build. A well made upper, with a solid BCG (BCM, LMT, etc.) is worth its weight in gold man. Currently run a 16" BFH mid, with a DD 12.0 Lite rail, and couldn't be happier with it. Another way to shave off a few bucks is to look at Magpuls MOE line for your grip and/or stock. And as great as the Troy BUIS are, you can do well with the Magpuls. Better to buy less expensive back up irons, and have more to drop on a quality optic, IMHO. When it comes to the "toys" such as VFGs, lights, lasers, ready-mags, and such; try to get a feel for them before you buy. I’ve seen allot of people deck out their guns to the fullest, only to find it too heavy or just plain impractical. Good luck, have fun with the project, and find what works for YOU. And yes, it is a sickness. lol. Cheers!

Thanks. I can see how it would be easy to go overboard. I've seen pics of $1000 rifles with an additional $1500 in rail mounted accessories. The pics look cool but I wouldn't know what to do with it if you handed it to me. [:D]

I plan on eventually running an Aimpoint and a 3x magnifier which will probably weigh the rifle down a bit before I look at VFG's and taclights and mounts. I want to have the option for fighting in the dark but I already have a pistol and backup pistol with lights for home defense so those aren't nearly as important just yet. I'll probably never shoot anything more threatening than a target with this rifle but I'd like it to be set up and ready in a basic multirole configuration just in case.

[AR-10]

I'm a huge fan of Magpul stocks and magazines, but I don't care for their sights.

I'd stick with metal backup sights...you have plenty of room for them with that budget.

[Denver45]

I'm a huge fan of Magpul stocks and magazines, but I don't care for their sights.

I'd stick with metal backup sights...you have plenty of room for them with that budget.

Do you have experience with the UBR and the Moe? Is the UBR worth the price of admission? I like the idea of having a butt stock that is sturdy enough to hit things with. Also, I love the way they look and the idea of pulling the balance of the rifle back a bit for ease of use but the $$$ for them seems a bit excessive.

I haven't even scratched the surface of flip up sights yet. I hear great things about Troy but I'm sure there are many options out there. I need to go back through the product reviews sooner than later.

[AR-10]

I have a UBR and a CTR which is the same thing as the MOE but with a friction lock and a QD hole.

I should add, that my CTR fits the receiver extension so well, it almost doesn't even need a friction lock.

If I ever build another lightweight carbine and I need a cheap stock without a sling attachment point I'm going to buy an MOE.

The UBR is a great stock too, but it is much heavier than the CTR and MOE. Once you pull one out of the box you will see why - they are built like a tank.

[Denver45]

I think I'll be sticking with the Moe or CTR at this point, as well as a full compliment of pmags.

[AR-10]

I love me some PMAG's.

Here's my newest build after I replaced the CTR with a SOPMOD:

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/6105/62381029.jpg

I needed battery storage, and the cheekweld on the SOPMOD feels heavenly.

I am building this one for a carbine class, so this one's gonna take a beatin'.

[Denver45]

I love me some PMAG's.

Here's my newest build after I replaced the CTR with a SOPMOD:

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/6105/62381029.jpg

I needed battery storage, and the cheekweld on the SOPMOD feels heavenly.

I am building this one for a carbine class, so this one's gonna take a beatin'.

I'm in trouble. I work from home quite a bit and I'm having a hard time focusing already. I'm in over my head.

I hadn't thought about battery storage. I may have to look into that as well. I want to take a carbine class as well as participating in some competitive shooting. I notice you are just running iron sights. Is that normal for a carbine class or more of a preference? I have a defensive pistol class in the first week of December and was planning on asking the instructor about any offerings they may have.

[AR-10]

No sir, I am putting a Micro T-1 on this particular upper I just haven't coughed up the $500 for it yet.

I already have the ADM mount.

[Denver45]

No sir, I am putting a Micro T-1 on this particular upper I just haven't coughed up the $500 for it yet.

I already have the ADM mount.

I've been seeing those T-1's a lot. Besides the advantage of a smaller size, do you give up anything over the M3's and M4's from Aimpoint? NV is not something I need to worry about. Just curious if there are any real tradeoffs.

[AR-10]

The compact size means less weight and clutter, and the tube itself has a thinner wall which means you don't really notice it when looking through the optic.

Also, the T-1 is in fact NV-compatible.

[TehLlama]

The T1 runs great in front of a PVS14 (if it becomes relevant later). The Micros are lighter, still great battery life, and with the right riser works great - while there are things to gain with the larger tubes (C3, M3, M4(S)).

I'm a tremendous fan of the Aimpoint Micro lines, thought he best value is still finding a used ML3 or something similar. If a few ounces won't upset the balance of your rifle, then I really do think the more affordable optic is probably a better choice. I still use an M4S for my SBR, and if NV isn't a consideration I tend to run the H-1 Micro (finer adjustment range, and the different finish/dive capability won't affect those rifles)

[Denver45]

The T1 runs great in front of a PVS14 (if it becomes relevant later). The Micros are lighter, still great battery life, and with the right riser works great - while there are things to gain with the larger tubes (C3, M3, M4(S)).

I'm a tremendous fan of the Aimpoint Micro lines, thought he best value is still finding a used ML3 or something similar. If a few ounces won't upset the balance of your rifle, then I really do think the more affordable optic is probably a better choice. I still use an M4S for my SBR, and if NV isn't a consideration I tend to run the H-1 Micro (finer adjustment range, and the different finish/dive capability won't affect those rifles)

Good to know. I don't mind buying used if I can tell the optic was treated well. I do plan on getting the red dot first and then trying to get a 3x magnifier in behind it on a mount that will flip out of the way later on. It just makes too much sense to be able to reach out that much further when you want/need to.

[mlosi762]

If you're interested in the LMT sopmod for the battery storage, and/or enhanced cheek weld, take a look at Magpul's ACS. It's got the friction lock just like the CTR, and the battery compartments open from the rear, making it more convenient to extract spare batteries no matter what position the stock happens to be in, which to me is a huge plus over its LMT or Vltor counterparts. It also has its little "trap-door" compartment that is a perfect fit for a boresnake and a small tube of extra gun lube. Not to mention that the ACS is anywhere $50-70 cheaper than the sopmod (depending on where you get it from of course). I respectfully disagree with (AR-10) on running the Troy over the Magpul BUIS, yes the Troy irons are of higher quality, but Magpul doesn't churn out garbage either. Personally I would rather spend the most I could afford on a higher-end optic, and leave the BUIS for exactly what they are, backups. I won't try to get into a chest-thumping discussion on what's better than the other, but if you plan out what you want, and you already have your budget to work with, some places you may want to shave off a few dollars here and there, because after all, everything adds up. And when I say "shave off" it doesn’t mean that you have to compromise quality. The best method I would suggest is put the BUIS lower on the priority list, get the optics you desire, and then see what you have left to spend. A $2000 project can quickly sore past that limit and never stop. The T-1 is a great choice for an optic, but I agree with (TehLlama) that the H-1 is a viable option as well. Basically the same optic, except for the NV and dive capability, and it’s less expensive. If money was no object, we would all be running no less than top o' the line kit. You're already on the right track by doing some research and looking for opinions.

[Denver45]

If you're interested in the LMT sopmod for the battery storage, and/or enhanced cheek weld, take a look at Magpul's ACS. It's got the friction lock just like the CTR, and the battery compartments open from the rear, making it more convenient to extract spare batteries no matter what position the stock happens to be in, which to me is a huge plus over its LMT or Vltor counterparts. It also has its little "trap-door" compartment that is a perfect fit for a boresnake and a small tube of extra gun lube. Not to mention that the ACS is anywhere $50-70 cheaper than the sopmod (depending on where you get it from of course). I respectfully disagree with (AR-10) on running the Troy over the Magpul BUIS, yes the Troy irons are of higher quality, but Magpul doesn't churn out garbage either. Personally I would rather spend the most I could afford on a higher-end optic, and leave the BUIS for exactly what they are, backups. I won't try to get into a chest-thumping discussion on what's better than the other, but if you plan out what you want, and you already have your budget to work with, some places you may want to shave off a few dollars here and there, because after all, everything adds up. And when I say "shave off" it doesn’t mean that you have to compromise quality. The best method I would suggest is put the BUIS lower on the priority list, get the optics you desire, and then see what you have left to spend. A $2000 project can quickly sore past that limit and never stop. The T-1 is a great choice for an optic, but I agree with (TehLlama) that the H-1 is a viable option as well. Basically the same optic, except for the NV and dive capability, and it’s less expensive. If money was no object, we would all be running no less than top o' the line kit. You're already on the right track by doing some research and looking for opinions.

Thanks for the info. I have a spreadsheet the covers all of the major and minor components and it is impressive how quickly they all add up. I have already started looking at what I can skip on for now. I've been giving the ACS and the MBUS's a hard look. First and foremost I will be using this rifle for range time, classes and hopefully some competitions but the other piece I'm looking for is a SHTF gun. Carrying batteries and cleaning kits, having optics that run forever and take abuse and general function and reliability all fit into the plan. I really like the tritium Troy set with the diamond rear aperture but for nearly $300 they will have to wait. The sights will stay locked down unless the red dot fails or the periodic check to make sure they are still at zero. I can continue to upgrade as I go but I'm trying to get a mostly finished set up right off the bat. I appreciate you taking the time to toss your $.02 in. Everyone has been awesome here and I only wish I had started this sooner. After the holidays I'll start spending money and posting pics. [:D]

[AR-10]

It's all good man, luckily you aren't on a different forum where you might get flamed for not liking the same AR parts as me.

He is 100% right on the SOPMOD, there are cheaper options out there that don't require removal of the stock to access the storage.

If I didn't get such a good deal on mine, my carbine would probably be wearing a Vltor IMOD right now.

The only reason why I brought up the MBUS thing - I put one on my brother's $1000 carbine and it was the first thing he replaced.

Now he has an extra plastic rear sight that he will probably never use...

[TehLlama]

I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to run it without irons for the first range trip in order to decide what you want to run. While I do like the MBUS rear paired with a fixed front, given the surge of used TROY rear sights at a good price, that may be the better value, but I think it will be an easier decision after you've fired it.

[Denver45]

I certainly see both sides on the flip up sights. I found the Fail Zero bolt and carrier group on the hard use thread which is $250 and I'm already looking at 2 stage trigger groups which is just pushing the cost up further so I may have to cut some initial corners but I'm not the kind of person to cut a corner and never go back and address it either. I've kind of been waiting to see what Stickman says about the Magpul MBUS since he's running it on that hard use rifle. I don't mind have in extra set of backups anyway. My wife is taking a defensive pistol class with me next month and looking at getting her CCW permit after that. I wouldn't be surprised if she tries to steal my AR which means I'll be building her one next year and extra sights would come in handy. She already stole my Springfield MC Operator with my M3X light for a bed stand gun which is why I'm trying to get her a pistol for the holidays. There are much much worse "marital issues" than that so I count myself as very lucky and make sure I don't really piss her off! [BD]

[Denver45]

Do you guys have any input on how to decide on a lower and if I should get a stripped lower and build on it or get one that's already completed? That seems to be where I am at right now. Since I am looking at a stock that's not common on completed lowers and also upgrading the trigger group it seems that I should build a lower but I have no experience with it and don't want to get in over my head.

I've been looking at Spike's, BCM and a couple of others. One thing I really like about Daniel Defense was that everything is made in the U.S. by them. Are these other companies making their own parts or importing them from else where? I can't seem to really find that information anywhere that I've looked so far. It means a lot to me to support small U.S businesses anywhere I can.

Thanks!

[Paulo_Santos]

Do you guys have any input on how to decide on a lower and if I should get a stripped lower and build on it or get one that's already completed? That seems to be where I am at right now. Since I am looking at a stock that's not common on completed lowers and also upgrading the trigger group it seems that I should build a lower but I have no experience with it and don't want to get in over my head.

I've been looking at Spike's, BCM and a couple of others. One thing I really like about Daniel Defense was that everything is made in the U.S. by them. Are these other companies making their own parts or importing them from else where? I can't seem to really find that information anywhere that I've looked so far. It means a lot to me to support small U.S businesses anywhere I can.

Thanks!

If you have the tools and know what you are doing, you can put a lower together by yourself, but in reality, the price difference isnt all that much and you wouldn't be making a mistake by getting a complete lower.

Also check out the ARMS #71 BUIS.

[AR-10]

Something you should know: most of the forged lowers you see on the market come from the same handful of companies that actually forge and machine them.

What I am trying to say is, when picking out a lower you're pretty much paying for the roll mark on the side.

Putting a parts kit in a lower receiver is simple with the right tools and guidance, this forum will help with the latter.

If you're looking for a particular stock/trigger combo in a complete lower receiver, look around because I've been seeing lowers offered with custom stocks and upgraded triggers.

[Denver45]

If you have the tools and know what you are doing, you can put a lower together by yourself, but in reality, the price difference isnt all that much and you wouldn't be making a mistake by getting a complete lower.

Also check out the ARMS #71 BUIS.

Thanks. Do you like the ARMS sights better than the Magpul ones? BEsides the accidental drop test in your review is there any other reason you like one over the other?

[rob_s]

AR Hierarchy ( appearing in future issue of Combat Tactics)
1. Reliability - likelihood that the gun will go bang
2. Longevity - number of time it will go bang before service
3. Education - learn how to operate the basic carbine
4. Upgrade - make changes based on observed shortcomings discovered through actual use
5. Accuracy - if you go through 1-4 above you will find that the gun is more accurate than you (and the ammo you routinely feed it)

[Denver45]

Something you should know: most of the forged lowers you see on the market come from the same handful of companies that actually forge and machine them.

What I am trying to say is, when picking out a lower you're pretty much paying for the roll mark on the side.

Putting a parts kit in a lower receiver is simple with the right tools and guidance, this forum will help with the latter.

If you're looking for a particular stock/trigger combo in a complete lower receiver, look around because I've been seeing lowers offered with custom stocks and upgraded triggers.

Good to know. They do all seem to be similar. I have seen a lot of billet lowers too. Is there an advantage to having a billet lower or upper over a forged one? So far the only comment I have seen one way or the other is that not all aftermarket parts might work due to dimensional differences. I plan on sticking with forged unless there is a pretty good reason to go with a billet instead.

[rob_s]

Re: lowers it is true that most come from the same few forges, but what is done with those forgings after to finish them can vary widely. The DD lowers are a good example as they have a nice bevel to the magwell. Sully's SR15 lowers are similar and have a lot of attention paid to some other areas as well.

Most who choose billet do so for the look IME but there are exceptions.

[Denver45]

Re: lowers it is true that most come from the same few forges, but what is done with those forgings after to finish them can vary widely. The DD lowers are a good example as they have a nice bevel to the magwell. Sully's SR15 lowers are similar and have a lot of attention paid to some other areas as well.

Most who choose billet do so for the look IME but there are exceptions.

Thanks for the tip. I'm looking for them now.

[Paulo_Santos]

Thanks. Do you like the ARMS sights better than the Magpul ones? BEsides the accidental drop test in your review is there any other reason you like one over the other?

I definitely prefer the ARMS BUIS over the Magpul GenI. If and when the Magpul GenII come out, then I think they will be very similar. I've had a t least 5 sets of Troys, and while they are top notch, they are still a BUIS. Hard to justify $250 for something that is a back-up. And I've been using the ARMS as my primary sights since I've done the review and no problem at all.

[Quib]

Paulo, question regarding the ARMS BUIS:

Is the release lever solid composite and integral to the BUIS base? And if so, do you think over time and numerous activations that the lever could possibly weaken and crack?

[Paulo_Santos]

Paulo, question regarding the ARMS BUIS:

Is the release lever solid composite and integral to the BUIS base? And if so, do you think over time and numerous activations that the lever could possibly weaken and crack?

I'll check it all out when I get home later.

[Quib]

I'll check it all out when I get home later.

Thanks.

I've tried to find pics and a better description, but to no avail......

[Paulo_Santos]

Paulo, question regarding the ARMS BUIS:

Is the release lever solid composite and integral to the BUIS base? And if so, do you think over time and numerous activations that the lever could possibly weaken and crack?

I just checked the ARMS BUIS and everything is Polymer or whatever they are made out of, except for the bolts and springs. It is very solid and I don't see how it can weaken and/or break.

[Quib]

I just checked the ARMS BUIS and everything is Polymer or whatever they are made out of, except for the bolts and springs. It is very solid and I don't see how it can weaken and/or break.

Thank you Sir for the update.

[Denver45]

Hey Fellas,

So I have now been told by a couple of friends including my neighbor who is a police officer that I should just buy a complete rifle. They are saying that reliability is the issue. I also just read an article online saying that during tactical carbine classes a vast majority of malfunction issues come from rifles that were put together by the owner and not purchased already complete then followed by malfunctions due to a lack of proper maintenance. (assuming there is truth to the info)

Obviously this makes me want to reconsider what I'm doing but I'm also not clear if this is with people installing their own barrels, triggers etc... or slapping a complete upper onto a complete lower and adding a BCG.

You guys seem to have the most real world experience that I can tap into which is why I am here in the first place. What say you? Please keep in mind that I don't mind buying a complete Daniel Defense rifle (for example) and spending a little extra getting to where I want to go. Since this is my first AR I don't really want to spend a lot of time troubleshooting malfunctions if I can avoid it. Now, if this is BS or if they are referring specifically to people putting all of the subcomponents together then I'll still probably buy a complete upper and lower and go from there.

Thanks for the input. I expect to get one unifying answer from everyone. Ha! [:D]

[Paulo_Santos]

If you know what you are doing and have all of the tools, it is easy to put together an AR. There are several videos online that will help you out such as the Brownell's videos. It helps if you go to an Armorer School. The key is to have all of the right tools and not be mechanically challenged. Then just test everything out and make sure it is reliable.

[Denver45]

If you know what you are doing and have all of the tools, it is easy to put together an AR. There are several videos online that will help you out such as the Brownell's videos. It helps if you go to an Armorer School. The key is to have all of the right tools and not be mechanically challenged. Then just test everything out and make sure it is reliable.

I am mechanically inclined and in fact I have a lot of fine woodworking skills to boot. I think my biggest hesitation is just that I don't know what I don't know. Great idea about looking at those videos. That will set me straight on what I am getting myself into.

[AR-10]

I'd still buy a complete upper and a complete lower and snap them together yourself, or you're gonna be paying an 11% tax on a long gun.

I've put together several rifles but I still won't assemble my own uppers. I lack the confidence and the tools to even attempt it but building a lower is so easy once you do it you probably won't buy anymore complete lowers.

Buying a complete lower usually means you're going to be changing some things like the trigger, grip, stock, etc. so stripped lowers make more sense.

[Denver45]

Yeah, I like the idea of saving money. Just want to make sure I'm not getting in over my head. I was planning on getting a complete upper and lower, getting a BCG (maybe even a Fail Zero) and then adding/changing furniture on it after getting the Aimpoint since they are smaller chunks of money to worry about after the initial larger investment.

[TehLlama]

If you wind up buying a complete DD Upper (Smartgunner, G&R, or a DD factory), or BCM, you might as well get that BCG that's included (usually at a very good price).

If I were doing it all right now - it would be a smartgunner DD custom (Lightweight Middy 16", Lite rail, pinned LP gas block) with BCG, get the BCM Blemished complete lower and a gunfighter charging handle, and an Aimpoint Package from G&R, and pick up whatever alternate furniture from Rainier, LT, or directly from MagPul or TD. Not sure who has the best deal on triggers, but again Rainier or BC-USA are competitive.

[Denver45]

If you wind up buying a complete DD Upper (Smartgunner, G&R, or a DD factory), or BCM, you might as well get that BCG that's included (usually at a very good price).

If I were doing it all right now - it would be a smartgunner DD custom (Lightweight Middy 16", Lite rail, pinned LP gas block) with BCG, get the BCM Blemished complete lower and a gunfighter charging handle, and an Aimpoint Package from G&R, and pick up whatever alternate furniture from Rainier, LT, or directly from MagPul or TD. Not sure who has the best deal on triggers, but again Rainier or BC-USA are competitive.

Thank you Sir! [adore]

You more or less just spelled out what I am looking for. I went to Smartgunner and built my DD upper for slightly less than what I was looking at from BCM. The G&R package deal also shaves off quite a bit on the Aimpoint and mount I was looking at. You just made my day! I apparently don't know where to look just yet.

Now if I can just survive through the holidays I can start spending some money.

[Grrrr]

It's all good man, luckily you aren't on a different forum where you might get flamed for not liking the same AR parts as me.

He is 100% right on the SOPMOD, there are cheaper options out there that don't require removal of the stock to access the storage.

If I didn't get such a good deal on mine, my carbine would probably be wearing a Vltor IMOD right now.

The only reason why I brought up the MBUS thing - I put one on my brother's $1000 carbine and it was the first thing he replaced.

Now he has an extra plastic rear sight that he will probably never use...

i have tried several stocks on my rifles.... the imod is my favorite. if he is going to completely refurnish the entire rifle he could always get an aftermarket grip that holds batteries. therefore if he really is set on the sopmod he could place the spare batteries in the grip. i have tried several of those also and really like the tangodown battlegrip.

[Denver45]

I haven't made up my mind yet on the stock. I really like the idea and looks of the Magpul UBR with the aluminum strike plate and extra weight to the rear of the rifle but for the $$$ I might not spring for one but the UBR doesn't have battery storage either. Off hand can you tell me what grips offer battery storage? I'll do some digging around later tonight either way. I haven't looked at the Tango Down stuff at all yet. I think the Magpul MIAD has that as an option. It's really nice and a pain to have so many options.

[The-S]

hey buy my slightly used UBR lol

http://www.superiordefensesolutions.com/products/Used-FDE-UBR-%24190-Shipped.html

[Denver45]

hey buy my slightly used UBR lol

http://www.superiordefensesolutions.com/products/Used-FDE-UBR-%24190-Shipped.html

Oh man. I can't spend any money until after the holidays. I have to get my wife her Kimber first before I can spend money on an AR which I plan on doing for xmas. If you still haven't sold it by 1/7/2011 which is my first payday after xmas I could commit to grabbing it then.

[TehLlama]

I have to get my wife her Kimber first before I can spend money on an AR which I plan on doing for xmas.

Still an enviable quandry.

Sounds like you'll have enough time to evaluation options on stocks and optics further. If there's a range nearby (maybe taking your wife to break in that shiny new Kimber), or a shop in range maybe give the different stock options a look.
I use 7 different kinds of stocks, each has a different feel, weight, and function. For many applications the cheaper stock feels better anyway.

Same with optics. If you get a chance to research further, and even test drive different optics, that can save some money as well.

[The-S]

Oh man. I can't spend any money until after the holidays. I have to get my wife her Kimber first before I can spend money on an AR which I plan on doing for xmas. If you still haven't sold it by 1/7/2011 which is my first payday after xmas I could commit to grabbing it then.

lol thats my friends site. I dont own it anymore but its a solid deal so I figured I would send it your way.

[Denver45]

Still an enviable quandry.

Sounds like you'll have enough time to evaluation options on stocks and optics further. If there's a range nearby (maybe taking your wife to break in that shiny new Kimber), or a shop in range maybe give the different stock options a look.
I use 7 different kinds of stocks, each has a different feel, weight, and function. For many applications the cheaper stock feels better anyway.

Same with optics. If you get a chance to research further, and even test drive different optics, that can save some money as well.

The range I have a membership at doesn't have anything by way of AR rentals with optics or even telescoping stocks. My neighbor is a police officer and shooting instructor. I think I need to hit him up to see what he has that I can play with without breaking any laws. [BD]

[Denver45]

lol thats my friends site. I dont own it anymore but its a solid deal so I figured I would send it your way.

Ah. I misunderstood. Thanks for the link. I will check back from time to time to see if it's still around. I imagine it will move faster than I will but you never know.

[Denver45]

Hey guys,

Have any of you had any experience with the Trijicon reflex sights? How is their day, night time and transitional light brightness? I don't want permanent magnification like the ACOG series but the idea of never worrying about batteries or turning an optic on really appeals to me, so much so that one day I'll get one of their rifle scopes for my 700P in .308.

Thanks!

[AR-10]

I have zero experience with the Reflex sights, but you should know something about Aimpoints - you can pretty much leave them turned on, and battery life is not an issue.

Unless replacing your battery every few years is a hassle.

[Denver45]

I have zero experience with the Reflex sights, but you should know something about Aimpoints - you can pretty much leave them turned on, and battery life is not an issue.

Unless replacing your battery every few years is a hassle.

Good point. I can't seem to find any examples of someone using a 3x magnifier with one either and the smallest dot they offer is 4.5 MOA which I have a feeling may not play nicely with magnification either. I think I will be sticking with the aimpoint.

[mlosi762]

Good point. I can't seem to find any examples of someone using a 3x magnifier with one either and the smallest dot they offer is 4.5 MOA which I have a feeling may not play nicely with magnification either. I think I will be sticking with the aimpoint.

A buddy of mine works for Trijicon's LE/Mil training division here in VA. He keeps me dialed in on all their products, and has practical experience training various military units and LE departments on their use. Top of the list (of their products), the ACOG. If you're properly trained, it is a very effective optic for both CQB and longer range engagements. The reason I say "properly trained" is that many people have a hard time shooting with a magnified optic with both eyes open at a short range target. It's kind of hard to explain through typed words, but you can view a video on Trijicon's website on the Bindon Aiming Concept and how it works. And, no matter what skeptics/ACOG haters may say, the ACOG does do very well for short range work. The problem however, is that we all know that no matter what ACOG model you like, they do not come cheap. I believe that their lowest end model is still around $8-900 beans, going into well over the $1K range. Kinda makes a $5-600 Aimpoint or EoTech a more appealing choice. Personally, I carried a 4x ACOG on my issue weapon through two deployments, and swear by it. However, now being a civilian, and having to buy my own stuff, I run the Aimpoint T-1. Before buying it, I consulted my Tijicon buddy on their reflex sights and RMR's, and at the time they did not have any type of red dot sight that could, in his opinion, compete with the Aimpoint. Like many are saying, you can't go wrong with the T-1/H-1. By the way, don't get caught up in the "T-1 only has a 4 MOA dot and not a 2MOA dot" debate. Yeah having a 2MOA dot seems more "High Speed," but a carbine is not a precision weapon, it's a battle weapon. That 4MOA dot is more than capable of hitting a man-size target at any reasonable engagement range you could expect to encounter.

[Denver45]

A buddy of mine works for Trijicon's LE/Mil training division here in VA. He keeps me dialed in on all their products, and has practical experience training various military units and LE departments on their use. Top of the list (of their products), the ACOG. If you're properly trained, it is a very effective optic for both CQB and longer range engagements. The reason I say "properly trained" is that many people have a hard time shooting with a magnified optic with both eyes open at a short range target. It's kind of hard to explain through typed words, but you can view a video on Trijicon's website on the Bindon Aiming Concept and how it works. And, no matter what skeptics/ACOG haters may say, the ACOG does do very well for short range work. The problem however, is that we all know that no matter what ACOG model you like, they do not come cheap. I believe that their lowest end model is still around $8-900 beans, going into well over the $1K range. Kinda makes a $5-600 Aimpoint or EoTech a more appealing choice. Personally, I carried a 4x ACOG on my issue weapon through two deployments, and swear by it. However, now being a civilian, and having to buy my own stuff, I run the Aimpoint T-1. Before buying it, I consulted my Tijicon buddy on their reflex sights and RMR's, and at the time they did not have any type of red dot sight that could, in his opinion, compete with the Aimpoint. Like many are saying, you can't go wrong with the T-1/H-1. By the way, don't get caught up in the "T-1 only has a 4 MOA dot and not a 2MOA dot" debate. Yeah having a 2MOA dot seems more "High Speed," but a carbine is not a precision weapon, it's a battle weapon. That 4MOA dot is more than capable of hitting a man-size target at any reasonable engagement range you could expect to encounter.

Thanks for the input. I would certainly love to have an ACOG but price does get in the way. I have a relative with one. I never tried to use it with both eyes open but it was nice shooting through it like a regular scope.

My comments about the 4.5 MOA were out of concern about using the reflex in conjunction with a 3x magnifier. This may serve only to highlight my ignorance as I have no experience with magnifiers. I assumed the dot would also be magnified and figured I'd want the smallest dot possible for that application. Am I wrong? It wouldn't be the first time. [:D]

Again, thanks for the input. You guys have all been fantastic!

[Paulo_Santos]

Thanks for the input. I would certainly love to have an ACOG but price does get in the way. I have a relative with one. I never tried to use it with both eyes open but it was nice shooting through it like a regular scope.

My comments about the 4.5 MOA were out of concern about using the reflex in conjunction with a 3x magnifier. This may serve only to highlight my ignorance as I have no experience with magnifiers. I assumed the dot would also be magnified and figured I'd want the smallest dot possible for that application. Am I wrong? It wouldn't be the first time. [:D]

Again, thanks for the input. You guys have all been fantastic!

Even though it is 4.5 MOA, it will still only cover up 4.5" at 100 yards with or without the magnifier. The magnifier does magnify the target and reticle so they stay in proportion. At longer distances, you will be using holdovers, so the reticle will not be covering up the target too much. I would definitely use a 100 yard zero so that at 200 yards you will already be using holdovers.

[Denver45]

Even though it is 4.5 MOA, it will still only cover up 4.5" at 100 yards with or without the magnifier. The magnifier does magnify the target and reticle so they stay in proportion. At longer distances, you will be using holdovers, so the reticle will not be covering up the target too much. I would definitely use a 100 yard zero so that at 200 yards you will already be using holdovers.

Well when you put it that way it seems so logical. lol

[Paulo_Santos]

Well when you put it that way it seems so logical. lol

LOL. Also, if you plan on getting a red dot and a Magnifier, you are looking at close to $1K+ for the good ones. I'd look into a TA33 ACOG with the Green Horseshoe Reticle, which cost around $800-$850 if you shop around.

[Denver45]

LOL. Also, if you plan on getting a red dot and a Magnifier, you are looking at close to $1K+ for the good ones. I'd look into a TA33 ACOG with the Green Horseshoe Reticle, which cost around $800-$850 if you shop around.

I can't afford the rifle, red dot and the magnifier all at once so splitting up the cost helps. It could be 6 months or more before I can get the 3x magnifier set up. I also want my wife to be able to effectively use this thing in CQB and I doubt she'll spend enough time with the ACOG for me to feel comfortable with her being able to use it in that manner. She is taking a defensive pistol course with me but refused to take a carbine class. Not that I have given up yet. Some day I will get an ACOG and set it up on another rifle though.

[Paulo_Santos]

I can't afford the rifle, red dot and the magnifier all at once so splitting up the cost helps. It could be 6 months or more before I can get the 3x magnifier set up. I also want my wife to be able to effectively use this thing in CQB and I doubt she'll spend enough time with the ACOG for me to feel comfortable with her being able to use it in that manner. She is taking a defensive pistol course with me but refused to take a carbine class. Not that I have given up yet. Some day I will get an ACOG and set it up on another rifle though.

Makes sense.

[Denver45]

What is the technique called for using the ACOG in a CQB setting? I'm wondering what the trick is to it and wanted to see what I could dig up on it.

Thanks!

[Paulo_Santos]

What is the technique called for using the ACOG in a CQB setting? I'm wondering what the trick is to it and wanted to see what I could dig up on it.

Thanks!

BAC (Binding Aiming Concept). Or something like that. LOL.

[Quib]

Bindon Aiming Concept

http://http://www.trijicon.com/aiming.html (http://www.trijicon.com/aiming.html)

[Denver45]

Thanks guys. This is something I already do with my HD pistol in a way. I have night sites on it with green front and orange rear to help me keep it pointed straight while I have both eyes open and it just takes a quick second to go from both eyes open to being focused on the front sight while putting it on target. Maybe this is the better deal. I have a couple of months to try to work this out anyway. I might have to throw some things up on the auction block. (wouldn't be the first time)

[Paulo_Santos]

You can also just use iron sights until you save some money.

[Denver45]

You can also just use iron sights until you save some money.

I'm not sure how successful I'll be at this concept called "Waiting". ;)

[Paulo_Santos]

I'm not sure how successful I'll be at this concept called "Waiting". ;)

LOL.

[TehLlama]

I would try the waiting thing until you've gotten to shoot it and handle it some - deciding if you want an optic that will help you make rapid fairly accurate fire, or something that gives up speed for better zoom at longer ranges. If you're okay with the possibility of buying things and having to eat some of the cost the stuff by reselling it at loss, then you'll have a better time trying stuff out.

[Denver45]

I would try the waiting thing until you've gotten to shoot it and handle it some - deciding if you want an optic that will help you make rapid fairly accurate fire, or something that gives up speed for better zoom at longer ranges. If you're okay with the possibility of buying things and having to eat some of the cost the stuff by reselling it at loss, then you'll have a better time trying stuff out.

I put more importance on quick hits at close range because I live in a city, by mountains with limited range and would only be in a shooting situation for defense anyway. In that light I think the red dot might be the best way to go. I don't mind burning through some money and gear to find what's right for me but I certainly want to make an effort to figure out what I want/need before starting down that road to make it as quick as possible. I think that helped. Thanks! I really need to get some trigger time behind a couple of these options to really get a sense of what I'm looking for.

[Fred_G]

"The Waiting' can be somewhat offset by 'theFun', or the ability to crank out 50 to 60 rounds (depending on your mag size) in a very short time frame with only one mag swap. Basic trijicon iron sites work pretty well also. I have those on one rifle. Get your rifle, do some shooting, and go from there. It is almost infinite on the types of sites and such you can get for the EBR!

Hmm, maybe you need 3 guns. One for daylight close range, one for long range daylight, and one for the night... Just joking, they are great guns, and a lot of fun.

[Denver45]

"The Waiting' can be somewhat offset by 'theFun', or the ability to crank out 50 to 60 rounds (depending on your mag size) in a very short time frame with only one mag swap. Basic trijicon iron sites work pretty well also. I have those on one rifle. Get your rifle, do some shooting, and go from there. It is almost infinite on the types of sites and such you can get for the EBR!

Hmm, maybe you need 3 guns. One for daylight close range, one for long range daylight, and one for the night... Just joking, they are great guns, and a lot of fun.

LOL. It looks like my tastes in what I want are going up and as a result your advice may also be what I have to deal with anyway. It's looking like I'll have a rifle by March and optics no earlier than the end of April. I have a police buddy that might be able to get my behind an Aimpoint or two and an Eotech. That should help immensely. Thanks for the input. I appreciate it!

[Denver45]

Here is an easy question.

If I went with a 14.5" bbl with a permanently attached muzzle device, how hard is it to change the device out for a different flash hider/comp? If I want something else should I just go with a 16" and be done with it so I can change it out at will? This seems to make the most sense and I'm sure 1.5" on the end isn't a big deal but I do prefer a smaller profile if I can get it. Just not sure if it's worth it.

Thanks!

[Paulo_Santos]

In order to remove the muzzle device after it is permanently attached, it will get ruined and you won't be able to reuse it. It costs about $35 to get them removed. Not really a big deal if you have a cheap one on, but I wouldn't want to attach an expensive one and then decide to remove it. Also, once you permanently attach the muzzle device, it will limit you on adding other handguards and gas blocks.

[AR-10]

Put it this way - I wish I would have gone with a 16" M4 profile barrel on my current build instead of pinning a Vortex to a 14.5"

Reason being, now I can't change my front sight base without destroying my Vortex.

I would prefer to have a folding front sight base to get the tower out of my FOV, but changing that component now would be a hassle because of the pinned muzzle device.

[Denver45]

Wow. I didn't realize it destroyed the part. I think I'll be sticking with the 16" barrel. [:)]

[AR-10]

If you look you'll see a weld on my Vortex, that weld holds the pin in place.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5346/img10770.jpg

In order to get the pin out, that weld has to be ground off.

It can probably be done carefully without doing too much damage but I'd rather just buy a new flash hider for $50.

I learned my lesson on this build, and my next rifle is getting a 16" mid-length barrel with a Phantom 5C1.

[Denver45]

If you look you'll see a weld on my Vortex, that weld holds the pin in place.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5346/img10770.jpg

In order to get the pin out, that weld has to be ground off.

It can probably be done carefully without doing too much damage but I'd rather just buy a new flash hider for $50.

I learned my lesson on this build, and my next rifle is getting a 16" mid-length barrel with a Phantom 5C1.

Makes sense. I was actually looking at the 5C2. Any reason in particular for your choice? I don't have any experience with flash hiders and compensators.

I like the idea of having the sharp edges on the front for CQB, breaking glass and well, because it looks mean but could also see how it could be more hassle than it's worth if snagging is an issue.

[Paulo_Santos]

Put it this way - I wish I would have gone with a 16" M4 profile barrel on my current build instead of pinning a Vortex to a 14.5"

Reason being, now I can't change my front sight base without destroying my Vortex.

I would prefer to have a folding front sight base to get the tower out of my FOV, but changing that component now would be a hassle because of the pinned muzzle device.

You can always grind the FSB down and put a Troy MRX over it.

[AR-10]

Makes sense. I was actually looking at the 5C2. Any reason in particular for your choice? I don't have any experience with flash hiders and compensators.

I like the idea of having the sharp edges on the front for CQB, breaking glass and well, because it looks mean but could also see how it could be more hassle than it's worth if snagging is an issue.

Yep, I actually got my Vortex to snag on something because of it's open-end design.

That's why I'm putting a 5C1 on my new upper, it's got excellent flash suppression but the tip is still round and closed like an A2 birdcage.

I'm not going to be striking anything with the muzzle or breaking glass so a "jagged" style tip is useless for my needs.

[AR-10]

You can always grind the FSB down and put a Troy MRX over it.

I didn't even know you could do this.

You're saying leave the sight base installed and chop it down so it fits under the handguard?

What about the handguard cap behind the sight base, cut that down too?

I am very interested in this, even though I'd have to buy a longer handguard and a flip-up front sight.

The benefits outweigh the cost, if I do this I can run absolute co-witness and I'll end up with more handguard space.

[Paulo_Santos]

I didn't even know you could do this.

You're saying leave the sight base installed and chop it down so it fits under the handguard?

What about the handguard cap behind the sight base, cut that down too?

I am very interested in this, even though I'd have to buy a longer handguard and a flip-up front sight.

The benefits outweigh the cost, if I do this I can run absolute co-witness and I'll end up with more handguard space.

You can leave the cap, or you can dremel it off. You will have to dremel off the delta ring. I've done it with my AR years ago and just helped my coworker. I painted the FSB black after I dremeled it. ADCO can also do that for you if you don't have the tools or if you don't want to do it.

[AR-10]

You can leave the cap, or you can dremel it off. You will have to dremel off the delta ring. I've done it with my AR years ago and just helped my coworker. I painted the FSB black after I dremeled it. ADCO can also do that for you if you don't have the tools or if you don't want to do it.

I've been reading about this and actually found some pics.

I also read that this modification doesn't work well with a DD Omega because the Omega is thinner - I assume this is why you recommended the Troy and mentioned cutting off the delta ring.

I have no problem with that, and I don't even care what the FSB looks like cosmetically afterward. No one is going to see it so who cares.

I'd like to see how small you made yours if you have any pics but I also don't want to hijack this thread...

[Denver45]

I've been reading about this and actually found some pics.

I also read that this modification doesn't work well with a DD Omega because the Omega is thinner - I assume this is why you recommended the Troy and mentioned cutting off the delta ring.

I have no problem with that, and I don't even care what the FSB looks like cosmetically afterward. No one is going to see it so who cares.

I'd like to see how small you made yours if you have any pics but I also don't want to hijack this thread...

Feel free to hijack away. It's only going to further my education. [:D]

[Paulo_Santos]

I've been reading about this and actually found some pics.

I also read that this modification doesn't work well with a DD Omega because the Omega is thinner - I assume this is why you recommended the Troy and mentioned cutting off the delta ring.

I have no problem with that, and I don't even care what the FSB looks like cosmetically afterward. No one is going to see it so who cares.

I'd like to see how small you made yours if you have any pics but I also don't want to hijack this thread...

Sorry, no pics. I did it on an old upper that I no longer have. It will work with the Troy, Samson, or MI 2-piece FF handguards. It will be easier with the MI because they are round inside and you don't have to cut as much