Toward LEO's - Looking for help addessing issues wirh our current patrol rifle policy

[neo9710]

Heres the deal. My dept (a big city - name not important) is currently under the process of revamping the patrol rifle program in its entirety. First a little background. I'm a Sergeant that just recently assigned to an administrative position BUT I try to hit the streets as much as possible and take the threat of active shooter pretty seriously - more than most my counterparts. My commander at the time asked me to oversee the patrol rifle program and basically gave me the thumbs up to whatever I thought was necessary. My section was the first ones to issue out patrol rifles in some sort of organized fashion. Last year, we has an instance where a call for units with patrol rifles were needed. We were there in minutes and ready to go while other officers were not even close to ready. In a nutshell, our program NEEDS WORK! There's a lot of problems that need to be addressed. I finally asked for a meeting and sat down with some high ranking officials and voiced my complaints. They knew I wasnt there just to bitch but I had a genuine concern that needed to be addressed. Well - they listened. I am NOT INVOLVED DIRECTLY in the revamp. But, some of the command staff have come up to me and asked about my opinion as a street sergeant.

Issue 1:
Currently, my dept does not allow Officers to zero in their rifles. Officers are trained and requalify with rifles that are kept at our range. Eek I am sure you know where I am going on this one. They are under the assumption that mechanical zero is good enough from the distances that we would be engaging at. My argument is that "Mechanical Zero" is different on EVERY rifle. Also, some statistics may be able to help me with this argument. For example, how does one click effect trajectory over what distances? Another argument they have used is that if all rifles are at mechanical zero, anyone can pick up the rifle and use it. Also, they can afford to issue out a rifle to each person. My response to that is that a rifle can be set back to mechanical zero pretty easy. The hierarchy is also going to ask if there are any other options? A response Is that once a officer zero's in a rifle, he can keep record of the adjustments he did. For example - one rifle is assigned to one person each tour. When person A signs out his weapon, he adjusts the sights to what he had when he zero'd the rifle in. Next shift, person B comes in and does the same thing - Im not happy with this option it is what it is..an option

Second argument:

I am tryng to convince the hierarchy to let officers use rifles they purchase on their own for patrol. One of the arguments I always hear about equipment is budget. This will get rid of a lot of issues such as zeroing in, etc. I do believe that the rifle has to be of certain parameters (no .50 cal, .308, etc.) Plus, since we dont requal with our actual weapon..how do we know it even FIRES?!?

AGAIN, I am looking for facts, statistics, arguments to improve the program - not just to say "this is a stupid order!" What works in your dept - what doesn't and most important WHY. Most of the people who I will be forwarding this info to are not weapon guru's. I was also thinking about contacting different agencies to get their guidelines they use. We all know what might sound good in a board room doesn't work in real life!

Feel free to contact me through PM, phone, carrier pigeon, if you feel uncomfortable posting information like this on a public site. I am looking for help and Ill take it anyway I can get it. AGAIN - Im not looking to BLAST my program. Im looking to improve it and make sure my family and yours (Police and immediate) go home safe and have the best tools to get the job done.

[neo9710]

And MODS - If I put this on the wrong place - OOPS! SORRY!

[Paulo_Santos]

We also share carbines in my department and we have 1 person zero the iron sights and it is close enough for everyone. The best advise I can give is to zero you AR's using the Nose To charging Handle position and tell the other guys to shoot in that position so the head placement will be similar for everyone. We also have EOTechs on them so it is even easier because Red Dot sights such as the EOTech and Aimpoints are parallax free so they are very forgiving with the head position. Ideally, personally owned weapons would be the best option since every officer would have their own AR zeroed to them.

What you need to stress to them is liability. If an officer is involved in a shooting and they miss the target because the AR is not zeroed for them, and god forbid an innocent person gets killed, your department will have a hard time explaining it.

What I also suggest is to take the brass to the range and have several guys shoot targets at 100 yards so they can see the differet POI that the different guys will have with the same AR with a common zero. I've seen some big differences.

[Dos Cylindros]

I assume your department will not, or can not equip all the qualified patrol officers with carbines? I would stress to them the option of personally owned carbines, with the understanding that all repair and maintinence of the carbines would be at the owners expense. The department would just have to buy ammo. Also stress that they can adopt a list of approved manufactuers, and each personally owned carbine employed on the street would be documented by serial number in the officers training or personell file. The zero issue is a big one for me, as everyone "sees" both irons and red dots differently, so one zero for you might be different than one for me (you know this of course, so it's just a matter of educating them). Best of luck to you, I know how frustrating this process can be.

[TripleBravo]

Our Department does not have enough carbines to issue to every patrol officer. However, every carbine is issued to just one officer, who carries it at all times. Officers are considered qualified to be issued a carbine if they have and maintain a minimum handgun qualification of 90% or better – we qualify twice a year. Carbines are then issued based on seniority. Every fiscal year, we put in requests to purchase more carbines. So we usually continue to add rifles to the road every year – even if it’s just a handful.

This works out for us because, as we all know, there are some officers that simply should not be issued long guns – they do the very minimum to stay qualified with their handguns, and are not interested in improving their skills – no matter how much we try to encourage them to. Putting more fire power into the hands of an officer of this caliber is, frankly, dangerous.

Carbines (we issue Colt 6920s) are issued after a three day carbine class. Officers who cannot qualify with a minimum 80% are not issued rifles. The carbines are issued without optics, however, the Department authorizes personally owned Aimpoint CompM series or EOTech optics. If an officer mounts an optic, he must qualify both with the optic and with back up iron sights.

We also have Remington 870’s and Bennelli M1 12 gauge shotguns. Typically, the most junior officers will be issued at least an 870 right out of the academy. As they gain seniority, they can upgrade to a Bennelli – which are issued with slugs in addition to buckshot. Again, each shotgun is issued to only one officer.

Officers qualify with both handgun and long gun together twice a year. Qualification day is literally an entire day long and includes the regular state mandated qualification and additional drills designed to maintain skills with malfunctions and reloads; and improve on various skills already learned – like moving and shooting and transition from long gun to handgun.

There has been a push to authorize personally owned carbines, however there are a lot of potential liability issues to consider. With such a large number of manufacturers producing dozens of versions of AR platform rifles, it is very difficult to come up with a comprehensive list of rifles with proven reliability. I think we are still a ways off from putting a policy in place for this.

I think your first priority should be to get each rifle issued to only one officer who should, at a minimum, sight it in and qualify with it regularly.

Personally owned carbines are a complex issue. However, I feel strongly that first-and-foremost all authorized carbines should be the same caliber and use Department issued ammunition.

I would suggest finding a similar sized Department to your own (preferably within your state) with a well established rifle/carbine program, and ask for a copy of their policy. Use this as your guide and program justification.

[neo9710]

...What you need to stress to them is liability. If an officer is involved in a shooting and they miss the target because the AR is not zeroed for them, and god forbid an innocent person gets killed, your department will have a hard time explaining it.

What I also suggest is to take the brass to the range and have several guys shoot targets at 100 yards so they can see the differet POI that the different guys will have with the same AR with a common zero. I've seen some big differences.

Ive been pounding the "liability" issue to the chain of command but some of them dont see it. (YET) I was thinking about shooting a video doing that exact thing and show them what could happen. COuldnt hurt..


I assume your department will not, or can not equip all the qualified patrol officers with carbines? I would stress to them the option of personally owned carbines, with the understanding that all repair and maintinence of the carbines would be at the owners expense. The department would just have to buy ammo. Also stress that they can adopt a list of approved manufactuers, and each personally owned carbine employed on the street would be documented by serial number in the officers training or personell file. The zero issue is a big one for me, as everyone "sees" both irons and red dots differently, so one zero for you might be different than one for me (you know this of course, so it's just a matter of educating them). Best of luck to you, I know how frustrating this process can be.

Couldnt agree with you more. My dept is over 3000 people - they cant but not everyone needs one. I suggested the list of manufacturers. Another suggestion is to contact some manufacturers on that list to come up with a "pre-authorized" choice of options at the manufacturers to order a complete AR - a thought


...This works out for us because, as we all know, there are some officers that simply should not be issued long guns – they do the very minimum to stay qualified with their handguns, and are not interested in improving their skills – no matter how much we try to encourage them to. Putting more fire power into the hands of an officer of this caliber is, frankly, dangerous.

Carbines (we issue Colt 6920s) are issued after a three day carbine class. Officers who cannot qualify with a minimum 80% are not issued rifles. The carbines are issued without optics, however, the Department authorizes personally owned Aimpoint CompM series or EOTech optics. If an officer mounts an optic, he must qualify both with the optic and with back up iron sights.

...Officers qualify with both handgun and long gun together twice a year. Qualification day is literally an entire day long and includes the regular state mandated qualification and additional drills designed to maintain skills with malfunctions and reloads; and improve on various skills already learned – like moving and shooting and transition from long gun to handgun.

There has been a push to authorize personally owned carbines, however there are a lot of potential liability issues to consider. With such a large number of manufacturers producing dozens of versions of AR platform rifles, it is very difficult to come up with a comprehensive list of rifles with proven reliability. I think we are still a ways off from putting a policy in place for this.

I think your first priority should be to get each rifle issued to only one officer who should, at a minimum, sight it in and qualify with it regularly.

Personally owned carbines are a complex issue. However, I feel strongly that first-and-foremost all authorized carbines should be the same caliber and use Department issued ammunition.

I would suggest finding a similar sized Department to your own (preferably within your state) with a well established rifle/carbine program, and ask for a copy of their policy. Use this as your guide and program justification.

Our certification course for Patrol RIfle is a week long and a decent class. The only persons who usually sign up for the class are people who actually want to carry the rifle. The class is pretty strict and they do fail people. I agree with the sighting in-Even just from a psychological standpoint..


Here are some questions I have...

For the Jurisdictions that allow officers to purchase their own weapons- what percentage of officers that carry patrol rifles actually buy their own? Did you notice any difference? What guidelines do you have for storage while in a cruiser?

for Jurisdictions that have one person Zero in all the rifles - What percentage of rifles were not at Mechanical Zero after they were sighted in? What distance do you sight them in at?

Does anyone know of ANY Dept. that leaves the sights at Mechanical Zero for deployment?!?

[Paulo_Santos]

We prefer the 100 yard zero. It is simple to use and understand. We never used the mechanical zero because we knew the problems with it.

One thing you can suggest about the personally owned weapons, is that the officers have to purchase the same ones that your department has. So if you guys use Colts, the officers would have to buy the colts, but see if you guys can buy them at the state contract price. The only negative about that is if guys already have AR's and don't want to shell out some money. The other thing you can do is just have a list of approved AR Manufacturers and a list of approved gear to put on the AR's. This way, guys don't start putting junk on them.

[boomhower]

We have the most lax policy possible. If it's an AR15 and you can qualify with it, you can tote it. We only have a handful of old surplus rifle donated from uncle sam and those went to swat. Everyone else, and even some swat guys, have to buy their own if they want one. I think this takes it a little to far the other direction. Balance is needed.

[neo9710]

Just a friendly update!

Thanks for all who gave me input. Looks like the dept. hierarchy is SLIGHTLY listening. I put a six page memo together and presented it to one of our Chiefs. So, looks like they are planning to re-do the whole thing anyway and my input definitely has them listening for options. I don't know if they will go the route of letting us buy our own rifles but whats the worse thing they can say.."no?!".