All-purpose scopes - they're coming

[AR-10]

Seems like everyone is jumping on the Recce bandwagon (including me) and luckily there are some very good optics that will be available to us soon.

These three seem particularly well-suited for a Recce gun:



Leupold 1.1-8x24 Mark 8 CQBSS
Specs: http://www.cstactical.com/MARK-4-MR/T-CQB/OPTICS/Rifle-Scopes/Leupold/MARK-4-MR/T-CQB/Leupold-11-8x24-Mark-8-CQBSS.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NyPSurb0Kc



Premier Heritage 1.1-8x24 Tactical 34mm
Specs: http://www.cstactical.com/Premier-Reticles/OPTICS/Rifle-Scopes/Premier-Reticles/Premier-Heritage-11-8x24-Tactical-34mm.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT2DmtioSBk&feature=player_embedded



Schmidt & Bender 1-8x Short Dot
Specs: http://www.cstactical.com/Schmidt-Bender/OPTICS/Rifle-Scopes/Schmidt-Bender/S-B-1%E2%80%938-x-24-PM-SHORT-DOT.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_d4X5sfDuE



So, which one of these bad boys will YOU be buying?

I know I'm not the only guy here who is planning on blowing their whole tax return on one of these...

[Paulo_Santos]

They are all great and from the reviews, it looks like the Leupold may be the best, but the S&B will be the most affordable. Also, the Swarovski 1x6 is also pretty nice. I've had two Swarovski 1x6 and sold them both, so I don't see myself getting one of these, ever. As good as the Swarovski was and as good as these new 1x8 scopes are, they are still a compromise scope. They aren't as fast as red dots on 1x and they aren't as good as a regular medium powered scope. I'd rather save some serious cash and get a red dot and a medium powered scope with QD mounts. These 1x8 scopes have their purpose, for such things like the SF boys and 3-gunners. For the price of some of these, I can get two IOR 2.5x10 scopes and two EOTechs.

JMHO.

[Dos Cylindros]

I would love to pick one of the Leupold units up but a couple of things have me holding back. The first is the cost, I heard rumor that the would be in the 3K range and that seems a bit much. The other thing is I have no experience with the variable power scopes and wonder just how much of a handicap they are compared to my T-1. I certainly am not willing to shell out that kind of money without experiencing it first, or at least reading a VERY detailed T&E. The problem is, I know nobody in my area will fork over the $$ for me to give it a test ride either.

[fuse]

Wow. And I thought my TR24 was high end.

[Paulo_Santos]

I would love to pick one of the Leupold units up but a couple of things have me holding back. The first is the cost, I heard rumor that the would be in the 3K range and that seems a bit much. The other thing is I have no experience with the variable power scopes and wonder just how much of a handicap they are compared to my T-1. I certainly am not willing to shell out that kind of money without experiencing it first, or at least reading a VERY detailed T&E. The problem is, I know nobody in my area will fork over the $$ for me to give it a test ride either.

A red dot will always be faster because red dots have unlimited eye relief and they are parallax free so head positioning is not as critical. I noticed a difference in speed at a class I took a couple of years ago.

Leupold is supposed to come out with a more affordable hunting model, but I don't know when or the price.

[rob_s]

I think the key is to add magnification to a red dot, not take magnification away from a traditional scope.

Between the technologies that Aimpoint has in the M4, T-1, and their magnifier I think it's only a matter of time before they perfect the 1-or-4 optic (not to be confused with the 1-to-4 optic) where the default technology is the 1x. I have no doubt in my mind that they are working on that right this minute, and sooner or later they'll have something amazing to show at SHOT one year.

These 1-8, even 1-6, maybe even 1-4x optics hold little interest for me. I'm passively interested in them from a tech side, and I understand why the 3-gunners like them, especially out west, but I keep struggling to find the application for my needs. SF roaming the mountains of Afghanistan? Sure. Me in my driveway after a hurricane? not so much. In my hallway at 3 AM? no way in hell.

[Paulo_Santos]

I think the key is to add magnification to a red dot, not take magnification away from a traditional scope.

Between the technologies that Aimpoint has in the M4, T-1, and their magnifier I think it's only a matter of time before they perfect the 1-or-4 optic (not to be confused with the 1-to-4 optic) where the default technology is the 1x. I have no doubt in my mind that they are working on that right this minute, and sooner or later they'll have something amazing to show at SHOT one year.

These 1-8, even 1-6, maybe even 1-4x optics hold little interest for me. I'm passively interested in them from a tech side, and I understand why the 3-gunners like them, especially out west, but I keep struggling to find the application for my needs. SF roaming the mountains of Afghanistan? Sure. Me in my driveway after a hurricane? not so much. In my hallway at 3 AM? no way in hell.

I sure hope that if Aimpoint comes out with a 1/4x optic that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Aimpoint is getting carried away with their prices with the M4.

[Paulo_Santos]

Rob, are red dots with magnifiers allowed in 3-gun matches?

[AR-10]

Well maybe I should clarify, I'm not putting one of these on a real Recce.

What I am building, is a 16" .308 and these scopes look ideal for an SR-25 clone.

Right now the one that stands out the most to me is the S&B because the dot doesn't change if you adjust the power setting and it also has a true 1X, not 1.1X like the other two.

[Stickman]

I would love to pick one of the Leupold units up but a couple of things have me holding back. The first is the cost, I heard rumor that the would be in the 3K range and that seems a bit much.




Ummm, its at least another grand over that price. I'm hearing that its $4,000, which is better than the initial $5k I had heard.

[TripleBravo]

Ummm, its at least another grand over that price. I'm hearing that its $4,000, which is better than the initial $5k I had heard.

WOW!

[Dos Cylindros]

Ummm, its at least another grand over that price. I'm hearing that its $4,000, which is better than the initial $5k I had heard.

Well crap, that for sure puts it out of my reach. I could never justify spending that on an optic. I could justify it to myself, the wife though.......not so much.

[Stickman]

Its going to be crazy for awhile as the upper end companies hit the 1x8 market, and the prices are going to reflect it. I've heard of a 1x6 coming out that should be much cheaper, but I think that is a SHOT show release.

[Uglyduck]

Rob, are red dots with magnifiers allowed in 3-gun matches?

They are, but variable power is more common. This is due in part to cost (RDS and magnifier combo can cost more than a variable power suitable enough for gaming) and there are limited RDS that incorporate holdover, a desired feature.

Despite the utility of these new variable powered optics they're still out of reach for the average Joe. Very few civilian consumers can afford or are willing to fork out the cash, even for the S&B which is at the lower end of the cost spectrum. Its scary when S&B is considered "less expensive".

They just aren't practical yet, but this is a good starting point. Manufacturers are beginning to develop products that consumers want, and in order to keep up other manufacturers will develop their own, hopefully bringing the cost down as they become more common.

IMHO a RD with magnifier delivers the desired versatility at a cost that is more reasonable than these variable powered optics.

[AR-10]

That's a pretty steep price, considering you can buy the S&B for around $1500 less.

Honestly I wouldn't even be looking at these if I weren't putting together a .308 but I really like the idea of a scope that is usable at close range while also having 8X magnification.

Right now I don't have a .308 carbine, I've got a 20" and the scope is 4X on the low end - it's not something I would want to carry and obviously not intended for close range shooting.

I've been waiting for the right set of receivers to come along and I found what I want in the Mega MA-TEN.

I actually put my 5.56 middy on hold so I could swing this .308, after reading Paul's review of the Mega receivers.

So yeah, this forum is not good for my bank account...

[Hatter]

I'm a fan of new things and especially high quality technical new things. However, at the cost of possible $3K to $5K you have the ability to create multiple adaptable COMPLETE weapon systems. Personally I'd take the route of multiple optics on QD mounts with absolute repeatability. I have that now on my Leupold CQ/T.

I agree that the technology is the way to go for manufacturer development but at the cost of these I could never justify a purchase. I guess these are currently the prices for a jack-of-all-trades, king of... optics? rifle/carbine.

[Army Chief]

... the S&B will be the most affordable.

As soon as I saw this, I knew that either we had a typo on our hands (not the case), or that the prices for some of these other emerging offerings were going to be positively stratospheric.

I own and use S&B glass, but it has never come cheaply, and as others have stated, it would seem that we're beginning to see the emergence of a capable class of optics that will never make their way into private hands in any numbers because only large agencies are ever going to be able to afford them.

It is incredibly interesting to take a survey of what has been available over time, because the amount of specialization in the market right now is nothing short of staggering. Remember when "advanced combat gunsight" pretty much meant the odd Armson OEG, because nothing else was really even available?

My, how far we've come.

AC

[AR-10]

I have to admit I was a little shocked by the price on that Leupold, for that much money I'd rather buy a PVS-14 kit for my M4.

The S&B is definitely within my reach, it's only $500 more than the 5.5X ACOG I was looking at.

I really need to see one in person.

[Cameron]

How is it that US optics makers have a hard time bringing out a decent price 1-6+ optic when guys like March (http://marchscopes.com.au) in Australia can make a good 1-10 for about US$3000?

Tactical model 1-10x 24mm

http://marchscopes.com.au/files/marchscopes/Tact%201-10.jpg

They have scopes with 1-10, 2.5-25 and even 8-80 mag range.

At the moment I am using the Leupold 1.5-5x20mm on my 16" AR and FAL, and I have owned the 1.1-4 IOR which wouldn't hold zero, the 1.5-8 IOR which also went back to IOR because it wouldn't hold zero. I have tried the Trijicon TR24, Schmidt & Bender short dot, the IOR 1/4 pit bull and a few others.

I really like the idea of a true 1-10 with a decent reticle and even though they are bloody Australians that March scope is kind of tempting.

Cameron

[AR-10]

Cameron, what was your opinion on the Short Dot?

[Paulo_Santos]

How is it that US optics makers have a hard time bringing out a decent price 1-6+ optic when guys like March (http://marchscopes.com.au) in Australia can make a good 1-10 for about US$3000?

Tactical model 1-10x 24mm

http://marchscopes.com.au/files/marchscopes/Tact%201-10.jpg

They have scopes with 1-10, 2.5-25 and even 8-80 mag range.

At the moment I am using the Leupold 1.5-5x20mm on my 16" AR and FAL, and I have owned the 1.1-4 IOR which wouldn't hold zero, the 1.5-8 IOR which also went back to IOR because it wouldn't hold zero. I have tried the Trijicon TR24, Schmidt & Bender short dot, the IOR 1/4 pit bull and a few others.

I really like the idea of a true 1-10 with a decent reticle and even though they are bloody Australians that March scope is kind of tempting.

Cameron

That sucks about IOR. I've had had a lot of their scopes and only had 1 problem in which the reticle rotated in the 2.5x10-42 FFP scope.

[Cameron]

Cameron, what was your opinion on the Short Dot?

I couldn't see the value over a similar Leupold or Nightforce, I had a chance to really compare the glass on the Leupold, Nightforce, IOR and Schmidt and I couldn't see much difference. Remembering on a short dot type of scope you only have 4 or 5 magnification so the really super super glass is good but hard to really appreciate like it is in a high end 15 or 20 mag scope.

I am very happy with the Leupold MK4 1.5-5 on my Recce it is rock solid and has never lost zero, same with my Leupold MK4 4.5-14 currently on my SPR, which is the most important thing after having a couple of IOR scopes that continuously never held a zero.

Cameron

[Cameron]

That sucks about IOR. I've had had a lot of their scopes and only had 1 problem in which the reticle rotated in the 2.5x10-42 FFP scope.

It wasn't just me, my good friend and every weekend shooting buddy both bought IOR 1.1-4 scopes with the CQB reticle, neither held zero, they replaced mine with another and he paid the extra for a 1.5-8 again they never held zero. They replaced both scopes, (I even left them my Recce with the scope mounted for the weekend as they are here in Colorado and wanted to try it for themselves) and the said they would replace it again... I never opened the box on the last one and simply sold it for a small loss and bought the Leupold MK4 1.5-5 I have run the Leupold in 3 gun matches and shot it out to 800yds and it is a great scope.

Cameron

[AR-10]

What about when you're shooting close range targets, do you notice any fish eye effect when looking through your scope at 1.5X with both eyes open?

[Cameron]

What about when you're shooting close range targets, do you notice any fish eye effect when looking through your scope at 1.5X with both eyes open?

Last year I ran some drills on a timer, I had a couple of 16" ARs that were almost identical but sporting a Leupold MK4 1.5-5 and an EOTech 552 for the only differences.

These are the test subjects:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/5156788911_be43eea073_z.jpg http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/5160015960_644b448c52_z.jpg

I ran some basic drills, including a couple of Kyle Lamb's and the MEU SOC drills and I was literally within the margin of error for time the differences were only a couple thousandths of a second. My buddy ran his Recce with the same Leupold 1.5-5 in the last Magpul Dynamics class here and actually got second (or third) in the class running Kyle's 1-5 drill at the end of day three, beating out probably 20 guys with Red Dots.

The short dot type scopes work surprisingly well on the AR.

Cameron

[AR-10]

Excellent.

I'm going to keep a red dot on my M4 but you're making me want a scope on the middy I just put on the back burner.

I still need to decide what I'm going to do with this .308 and the more research I do, the harder it gets.

That 1-10X you originally posted would be great for what I am currently building but I've never even heard of the company.

[DM1975]

If you ask me a TA31 series ACOG is the perfect all around scope for an AR. If you know how to properly employ the BAC then you can use it just as effectively as a red dot, and the 4X is just enough to reach out to any distances you need. That combined with the BDC reticle and the ability to range on the fly with the reticles on a man sized target is a winning combination.

[rob_s]

Those drills are unlikely to show the shortcomings of the low-powered scope. You need dynamic movement of at least the shooter if not shooter and target, target ID, target discrimination, etc.


Last year I ran some drills on a timer, I had a couple of 16" ARs that were almost identical but sporting a Leupold MK4 1.5-5 and an EOTech 552 for the only differences.

These are the test subjects:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/5156788911_be43eea073_z.jpg http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1345/5160015960_644b448c52_z.jpg

I ran some basic drills, including a couple of Kyle Lamb's and the MEU SOC drills and I was literally within the margin of error for time the differences were only a couple thousandths of a second. My buddy ran his Recce with the same Leupold 1.5-5 in the last Magpul Dynamics class here and actually got second (or third) in the class running Kyle's 1-5 drill at the end of day three, beating out probably 20 guys with Red Dots.

The short dot type scopes work surprisingly well on the AR.

Cameron