What I’ve learned while on WEVO

[AR-10]

How about a thread for new guys outlining mistakes made and lessons learned. I’ll start:


- Pinned muzzle devices can be a major PITA.

Reason: If you ever need to remove your gas block, you’re screwed. Trust me, you might think you will never be taking that front sight base off, but once you realize you need a longer handguard, you’ll be kicking yourself in the ass for pinning that flash hider to your barrel.


- 16” barrels are the way to go

Reason: Other than the obvious minimum legal barrel length, you get higher velocities and no pinned muzzle device (unless you’re in a state that requires it regardless). 16" is nice and compact, yet can still reach out to medium ranges if needed.


- M4 profiles are pretty useless

Reason: Should be obvious, unless you own a grenade launcher, most shooters will benefit more from a lightweight barrel. I’ll never buy another one, unless I build another M4 clone.


- Fixed front sights get in your way

Reason: I prefer to have my red dot at absolute co-witness height. If you like absolute co-witness, and you have a fixed front sight, guess what you'll be seeing when you look through your optic? I've heard shooters say they run this setup and it's not a big deal to them. It was a big deal to me, big enough to make me take my upper apart and send it out to have the front sight chopped. In my opinion, fixed front sights suck unless you plan on running irons only.


- 7” of handguard isn’t enough

Reason: Once you start slapping accessories on, there just isn’t a lot of room left for your hand. I won’t be building anything with a handguard smaller than 9” from now on, maybe even 10".


Of course these are all MY opinions, some will disagree and that’s fine. The point of this thread is to make new guys THINK THEIR BUILDS THROUGH!!! Make sure you do your research before buying and you will avoid making costly mistakes.

Feel free to add anything that might be helpful to anyone new to AR's.

[Paulo_Santos]

Great post.

[Wondering Beard]

Excellent post [:)]

Of course, I'll disagree with you, just because :P

My lesson learned: don't fret so much about the small things (length of rails, exact weight, coatings and on and on), just get a reliablle quality carbine made to the proper specs, a good light, good sights and just go shoot.

[Optimus Prime]

My YHM flip-up front sight/gas block clamps on, so if I had a pinned device, I'd still be good. :p

Seriously though, you're pretty much right.

I still want a 10.5" for the cool factor however.

[sdoperator]

How about a thread for new guys outlining mistakes made and lessons learned. I’ll start:
- Pinned muzzle devices can be a major PITA.

CAN being the operative word here. Bolt on gas blocks were invented specifically for this purpose. [:)]
If the other things in your list are factored in, having a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash hider isn't an issue.
For instance, having a 10" rail means no front sight post; fixed sights aren't in your way by default. In this configuration you'll need a low profile gas block - might as well be a bolt on one. Buy the flash hider you want to begin with and there's no problem.

The velocity argument for 16" vs 14.5" can be used for 7", 10", 10.5", 11.5", 14.5", 16", 18", 20" so I find it funny that there's so much talk of this. M4's have worked pretty well at 14.5" for a while now, so if velocity is really important to you, why stop at 16"? To the point: the only reasonable difference between a 14.5" and a 16" is their configuration in reference to their legality; one flash hider forever.

That said, I think a 16" barrel is the way to go for most people.

Nice post. I stopped lurking today because of it.

[oregonshooter]

How about a thread for new guys outlining mistakes made and lessons learned.

KISS - The more I run my carbine the less crap I put on it.

- 7" rail and VTAC flashlight holder and 6P (w/ Malkoff insert) light ... less LADs, light, tough
- Standard single stage trigger is just fine with a 15 minutes trigger job or JP sear spring & factory hammer... fires wolf all day long
- Aimpoint T1 is the perfect carbine optic ... fast, light, tough and will make hits out to 400 yards (it's a carbine, remember?)
- Leave all your crap off the gun and you won't need a pencil profile barrel. :)
- SOPMOD ... balances rifle, awesome cheek weld, tough as nails, get one!
- Carbon bolt cleaners are a scam, don't waste your money
- MAID grips with bolt & FP inserts rock! - You can stick a Brownell broken case extractor in their also.
- Buy once, cry once ... Laure for all optic mounts
- Grease once & 1 drop of oil every 1K rounds
- VTAC 2pt adjustable slings are the best bank for the buck.
- Magpul 30rnd mags, there is no substitute!
- Bravo Company USA, LMT, Spikes Tactical = GTG

[Aragorn]

So far, "lessons learned" appear much closer to "opinions formed".

[AR-10]

Agreed, these are all opinions that I formed after my last build.

I am not knocking other barrel lengths, this was more catered towards anyone who might be interested in buying or building their first AR and are trying to decide between a 14.5" and a 16" barrel.

To me, 14.5" just doesn't make sense anymore unless you're going to SBR it.

[oregonshooter]

The difference is that those opinions came about by learning the lesson by using other methods/gear before hand. Opinions derived from negative experiences would be "lessons learned" in my book.

Aragorn,
What did you learn?

[rob_s]

- Fixed front sights get in your way

Reason: I prefer to have my red dot at absolute co-witness height. If you like absolute co-witness, and you have a fixed front sight, guess what you'll be seeing when you look through your optic? I've heard shooters say they run this setup and it's not a big deal to them. It was a big deal to me, big enough to make me take my upper apart and send it out to have the front sight chopped. In my opinion, fixed front sights suck unless you plan on running irons only.


I'll agree with the rest of your items, but not this one. not this one in a very, very big way. This is a total non-issue if you're using your RDS correctly.

also, I'd ask how these lessons were learned. They all sound like "build" lessons to me, not range/use lessons.

[AR-10]

That is exactly what these are, lessons learned from a build that did not go exactly as planned.

I made a pretty expensive mistake because I didn't think things through, I'm just trying to prevent others from doing the same.

I bought something that I thought was "cool" instead of focusing on functionality.

I'm also not ashamed to admit that I have no idea what RDS is.

[rob_s]

Sorry, red dot sight = RDS.

What you describe with the FSB issue is common prior to actual use and proper training in the use of the RDS. When both eyes are kept open, and eye focus is downrange on the target, you will not "see" the FSB at all regardless of cowitness height.

Hold your first and second finger up vertically in front of you so that you can see both of them (booger-picker and social finger). The two of these together will be MUCH wider than the FSB. Now get a hard focus on them. That's how you use an iron sight, hard focus on the front sight. Now let your focus shift to something across the room. The two fingers will ghost out and you will be able to see everything on the opposite wall. Now drop one finger so that it's closer in width to the FSB. Even less distracting. This is how a RDS works, and why it's faster than iron sights on target identification, threat identification, and target-to-target transition.

[Paulo_Santos]

I shoot EVERYTHING with both eyes open and it is ANNOYING AS HELL for me to have a FSB in my field of fiew. Can I shoot with a fixed FSB, yes, but I don't have to so I choose not to. Iron sights are back-ups, why have them in your field of view? Sure, a fixed FSB is more durable, but I've dropped some of the plastic Back-up Sights on a hardwood floor and they did not break.

[rob_s]

It has less to do with durability and more to do with speed. In fact, I generally prefer a front AND rear fixed sight and is why I have lower-1/3 mounts for most of my Aimpoints.

One of the things I include in my training is using the optic as a ghost ring with the FSB to get hits. In fact, I'm glad you reminded me as we're going to do that at our practice night next week now.

The question I would have is why NOT have them in your field of view when they obstruct nothing at all? It's only annoying if you let it be annoying.

[AR-10]

OK I'm a dumbass, I should have known what you meant by RDS.

I tried to shoot it, and I'm telling you it bothered me enough to make me want to change it.

I even took it a step further and tried lower 1/3 co-witness, and I ended up with more chin on the stock than cheek.

My decision to chop the FSB and go with a flip-up front sight came AFTER I decided to put a longer handguard on my upper so if I can get my front sight out of the way at the same time, why not do it?

ETA: Yes I've seen FSP handguards and I don't really care for them, I'd rather get the sight out of the way.

[Quib]

I shoot EVERYTHING with both eyes open and it is ANNOYING AS HELL for me to have a FSB in my field of fiew.

This is similar to my experience when I was using an EOTech with CCH BUIS and standard FSB. No matter how hard I concentrated, I could not get rid of the image of the iron sights while focusing on the target. I believe the combination of EOTech reticle, fixed BUIS and FSB and absolute co-witness, was simply too much in the FOV for me to try and sort through and process optically.

I eliminated the CCH BUIS and went with a MATECH BUIS, which helped some, but not enough. The EOTech with its absolute co-witness and reticle design in combination with the FSB still was a distracter.

The EOTech was sold and replaced with an Aimpoint mounted in a PRI mount. This combination of folding rear BUIS and single 4MOA dot mounted in a lower 1/3rd co-witness is much more agreeable with me. The FSB with this set-up is no longer an issue for me.

I believe not every optic set-up can work the same for each shooter, and some shooters, regardless of time accumulated behind those optic set-ups, will still have issues.

[rob_s]

I agree that both a fixed front and rear sight with an absolute cowitness is too much. The rear sight in that can actually block your view of the reticule, which is not the case with the FSB.

[Paulo_Santos]

It has less to do with durability and more to do with speed. In fact, I generally prefer a front AND rear fixed sight and is why I have lower-1/3 mounts for most of my Aimpoints.

One of the things I include in my training is using the optic as a ghost ring with the FSB to get hits. In fact, I'm glad you reminded me as we're going to do that at our practice night next week now.

The question I would have is why NOT have them in your field of view when they obstruct nothing at all? It's only annoying if you let it be annoying.

I can do the same exact thing with a flip up. Matter of fact, I knew several SWAT guys when I was on the ERT Team that used to flip up the front flip up sight and use the Aimpoint or EOTech as a ghost ring just as you described.

On a duty gun, most if the time you have to work with what you are issued. But on a personally owned gun, flip ups make all the sense. And as I already indicated, you can always leve them up if you want to. They also make more sense if you plan on swapping out optics for various reasons.

[Aragorn]

The difference is that those opinions came about by learning the lesson by using other methods/gear before hand. Opinions derived from negative experiences would be "lessons learned" in my book.

Aragorn,
What did you learn?

I've learned that there is no absolute best in almost any area in terms of builds. What works for one person does not work for everyone else. Rail lengths, buffer weights, barrel profiles, and everything in between and beyond is subjective to the operator and what he/she is attempting to achieve. It can be preferential and mission specific at the same time. Say for instance you and a buddy are each rolling SBR's. You have a 12.5" BCM barrel with a 7" DD Omega Rail with a FSB, your buddy is running a 10.5" Noveske barrel with a TRX rail and folding front sight. Neither of you is wrong.

What I really like about this sight is you have access to both information that IS preferential (and you learn why certain individuals run their set ups how they do) AND more hard data such as what is more likely to make a weapon fail, run more reliably, velocity thresholds, etc. The no BS reviews give us solid information that we wouldn't be able to ascertain ourselves without actually buying the product and running it hard.

Perhaps the most important thing I've learned is that no amount of technical knowledge or theory is a substitution for actual training and practice, no matter your mission or set up.

[oregonshooter]

RDS / co-wit,

True Co-wit with a fixed FSB and flip up rear makes the most sense to me.
- one cheek weld that is constantly being reinforced.
- FSB leads you to the dot which is on top of it if the CW is correct, your eye will find the dot before the FSB if it's not.
- ghost ring CQC BUIS if the dot fails, flip the rear when you have time for a more refined BUIS.
- lower over bore scope offset helps with trajectory variances


Aragorn,
Well said. Everyone has their own way, I think the jist of this thread is to share what their way is and why from information gathered while learning here. What works for me is not what always what works for others.

If guys do the work themselves, they might find that the guys posting their "opinions" have formed them through previous failures in training/gear. That's how I learn and form mine at least. I put my stuff on the clock and in 3Gun to test my theories, some use what they are issued in combat and MAKE it work. Is one more correct than the other?

[Aragorn]

I put my stuff on the clock and in 3Gun to test my theories, some use what they are issued in combat and MAKE it work. Is one more correct than the other?

I think the one that would be correct would be the one more relevant to you.

As for my preferences, I would take a well balanced weapon over a slightly lighter one. Because of this I favor lighter weight barrel profiles and heavier stocks. If at all possible I pin the gas block. A 10" rail with an AFG out at the end is the sweet spot for me, any shorter and I prefer a vertical foregrip (I still use the thumb over the bore grip, but the closer my hand is to my body the more I prefer a steeper grip angle). If I could make only one modification to a reliable off the shelf rifle it would be to add a B.A.D. lever.

In a build I think the most important consideration is the barrel, and the most important investment for any rifle is ammo and trigger time. Tweek as necessary.

[Quentin]

I know there's a lot of disagreement about fixed vs. flip up sights and everyone must choose what works for them but I have to agree with rob_s that the technique he described works very well. Initially I thought fixed irons would get in the way but they don't. And if you're going to leave them up you might as well have a standard FSB and a chopped carry handle or LMT rear sight that's tough as nails.

[Paulo_Santos]

I know there's a lot of disagreement about fixed vs. flip up sights and everyone must choose what works for them but I have to agree with rob_s that the technique he described works very well. Initially I thought fixed irons would get in the way but they don't. And if you're going to leave them up you might as well have a standard FSB and a chopped carry handle or LMT rear sight that's tough as nails.

It depends on how and what you are using your AR for. If you set up your AR and the only thing you will ever put on it is irons and a red dot sight, then you set it up however you want because it is your rifle and you are the one that will be using it.

But if you are like a lot of people who like to try different optics, then flip ups are the better choice and pretty much the only choice, especially the rear flip up. So it depends on what you are using your AR for and as long as you know what you want, you are right because it is your AR.

[oregonshooter]

I was running a Larue fixed BUIS with my T1 and fixed FSB, but went to a rear flip up that I leave down after Dave Harrington pointed out that they do clutter up the SP in lower light. Having gotten comfortable with the setup already I though "eh how much though, probably not enough to matter" but I had to test it both ways and he was right. Big difference in FOV and ability to see with the rear flip up down instead of a fixed rear BUIS.

If you run hard irons all the time with your dot, you own it to yourself to try it with a lowered rear BUIS. Do it in low and changing light conditions indoors especially.