Forged vs. billet?

[Denver45]

Hi again!

I've been noticing some billet upper and lowers lately and I'm curious as to what you get with them that you don't already get with a forged set. I understand that they are a little bit heavier than their forged counter parts. I'm not too concerned about weight though. I also hear they flex less. Does that improve accuracy at all? Is there a benefit to the stiffer upper and lower? Any draw backs to them?

I would appreciate anyones thought on this regarding pros and cons. It seems that this is more of a personal preference than anything else but I am curious as to what more experienced minds think.

I like having gear that is distinctly different when I can afford it and the Spike's billet set appeals to me for that reason.

TIA!

[TripleBravo]

My 2 cents:

Forged aluminum is actually stronger than billet aluminum. For a duty gun I'd probably always use a forged set.

Billet allows for more "artistic" flexability during the milling processes. Some manufacturers have made billet receivers that also have design improvements. I highlighted some of the features of the Spikes set in this post: http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2266-Spikes-Tactical-Billet-Recievers&highlight=spikes+tactical+billet

The Spike's Billet Receiver Set and their BAR and SAR rails are producted by Seekins Precision. Jointly, they are also developing an AR styled .308 receiver set that will have some unique features as well. (Stay tuned to weaponevolution for updates on that after SHOT show.)

Spike's Set:

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/wjt1169/Seekins%20Precision/STBillet01-webonly.jpg

Seekins Set:

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/wjt1169/Seekins%20Precision/SeekinsAR01left-webonly.jpg

If you want a unique look go with a nice billet set. If you want a reliable-gonna-take-a-beating rifle stay with forged. Again, just my 2 cents.

[Denver45]

Thanks for the quick reply!

This is why I ask questions here. Based on threads in other forums people think the billets are stronger for whatever reason. Making assumptions I guess. [bash]

I'll check out your link when I get a chance. Great pics!

[Paulo_Santos]

I could be wrong, but I think the Billet are better for precision builds because of the tighter tollerances.

[Aragorn]

What B3 said is pretty much dead on. The only reason a manufacturer could claim to have a stronger (billet) receiver than a forged one is simply the added material. As for the material itself, as B3 said, the forged is stronger.

Vltor stands out from the crowd here however with their MUR/VIS, as they are both forged, aged, and stress relieved. I own one, and while I do believe that while it may handle the abuse typically imparted on a high mileage gun better, I don't think it would survive anything traumatic enough to destroy any other forged upper.

I'll also add that I don't plan on putting one on another build at this time, simply for the savings in weight. I do like how most billet receivers look though.

[Denver45]

Thanks for the info fellas! Gives me a lot to think about.

This is my first build and as such I plan on it being a solid general purpose rifle leaning more to the CQB side of things. I also have the intention of taking a carbine class or two (if I can ever afford it) although I'd be surprised if I surpassed 20K rounds with it. Has anyone ever run a billet upper past 20K rounds? I'm wondering if the softer material would actually wear out enough to cause issues where contact from the BCG is made.

Also, any idea on the weight difference? Are we talking ounces or pounds generally? A little extra weight won't bother me and I kind of prefer it actually but if it's possible to wear the upper out enough to sacrifice reliability then I already know what my decision will be. [:D]

[Eric]

I don't get as excited about billet uppers/lowers as some folks do, as they really don't seem to do anything better and the costs involved are typically higher. With that said, as long as the dimensions are properly machined the billet parts are going to function fine.

[rob_s]

Not only are the costs higher, they weigh more, may have parts compatibility issues with some aftermarket, and may have sharp edges here and there.

What was the upside again...?

[AR-10]

A forged lower is hammered into shape - when done right, the forging process can make a very strong part.

A billet lower starts out as a block of aluminum that has been milled down to it's finished shape.

If you took a forged lower and a billet lower, both cut from the same material (let's say 7075-T6), the forged one has the potential to be stronger if the dies are made right.

Does this mean billet lowers break? I've never seen or heard of it happening, I know a guy who built his 3 gun rifle around a Sun Devil receiver which is actually 6061-T6 (softer than your average forged lower) and he beats the crap out of his rifle.

[Denver45]

Thanks guys. At this point, aside from looks, my only draw to the billet lower at this point is that you get an ambidextrous bolt release. Not sure how I will go but I have a couple of months to make up my mind. [:D]

Thanks again!

[ratfink57]

I could be wrong, but I think the Billet are better for precision builds because of the tighter tollerances.

I built a SPR with one of Rainer Arms billet uppers and a Young NM carrier. The fit of these two items was amazing. I have to really line it up before the BCG will drop in. I expected some cycling issues until it got broke-in a little but I have had none, even with a suppressor adding more muck into the receiver. Having said all that I have no idea if there is any real accuracy benefit to this.

[5pins]

Other then the better accuracy that is supposed to come with the billet, I don’t see any advantage to them. I’m also having a hard time seeing any advantage with the monolithic uppers that are in vogue now. Having said that, my next build plan is going to use a Vltor VIS.

[Paulo_Santos]

While I don't think that the Billet uppers and lowers are that much better than the Forged uppers, I don't see any real negative in having them either. It may seem like a big deal when trying to decide on billet vs forged, but once you shoot with one, it isn't something you will be focusing on. When I was testing the Mega Ma-Ten, I didn't even realize I was shooting a billet upper and lower. So if you want one, just get it and don't think about it. Most people won't/don't know the difference anyway, so who cares? Get whatever you want. They are both good and will get the job done.

As far as the Monolithic uppers, if given a choice, I will never get another upper unless it is a Monolithic upper. JMHO.

[rob_s]

The #1 element that has lead to the AR/M16 platform's success is the ease with which it can be modified and changed. Billet reduces this ability for no real gain, as do monolithic uppers/rail platforms.

If you KNOW you're set in your configuration, and you KNOW you're never going to change, motor on.

[Paulo_Santos]

The #1 element that has lead to the AR/M16 platform's success is the ease with which it can be modified and changed. Billet reduces this ability for no real gain, as do monolithic uppers/rail platforms.

If you KNOW you're set in your configuration, and you KNOW you're never going to change, motor on.

Don't understand the comment about the monolithic uppers. I can configured my LMT in pretty much every possible way just like I would with a standard upper. I can put flip-ups, fixed irons, and any accessory that I can think of. And I can put it anywhere on the rail and not have to worry about putting it on the upper receiver or handguard. With a monolithic upper I don't have to worry about the upper receiver/handguard gap that can be a pain in the ass with a standard uppers, nor do I have to worry about alignment issues, which I've had problems with in the past. And they are more rigid. What were the negatives again of a monolithic upper besides the price?

[TehLlama]

Weight of many monolithic uppers is a comparative drawback, though not much of one. Were LMT to ever roll out a modular-railed (attachable rails to a round handguard) version of their MRP, then they wouldn't be able to keep them in stock.

Billett recievers have little functional appeal - I still have two sets, but I think those days are behind me. They are visually stunning rifles, and shoot very well, but my most accurate rifle uses a lowly forged upper, and both of my billet lowers are tighter in the magwell than my forged units, and have little added flaring as well.

I really like my billet units, but when I see guys spending money on those parts and then skimping on BCG components, then that makes me wonder and worry.

[Denver45]

LOL! Thanks for the input guys. All of the differing view points give me great perspectives to consider.

I think at this point I might go with the Spikes billet lower with a forged upper although my mind is not made up yet. This is just where I hover now without my finger on the trigger as it were.

Weight isn't an issue with me. Everything I have now is really heavy (VEPR, Remmy 700P with 26" BBL in .308, Remmy 870 etc...)... and even with goodies installed I'm coming in pounds lighter on this AR build and a better balance of the weight than what I'm used to. I want to get the ambi bolt release without add-on levers filling in the extra space inside the trigger guard to accomplish the same thing which the billet offers. And while I will spare no expense to get a great, solid and reliable rifle I certainly don't want to throw money away over BS not needed.

I have to wait a couple of more weeks to make sure I still have a job this year (great innit?) and then I'll start dropping money. March is the big paycheck so I might get the lower before then but the upper and optics will have to wait a bit longer. Such is the pain of BRD I suppose. At least I have the support of my wife who is currently trying to make up her mind about what pistol to buy for my Xmas present to her. That's how you keep the approval ratings up at home in my house. It's a tough life! [BD]