Optics education please [Archive]

CLBME

15 February 2011, 16:29

Good evening,

I'm beginning the process of evaluating/understanding optic options and the pros and cons of each but I'm looking for some advice from all of you to add to what I've read. I have no experience with optics other than a scope on a deer rifle many years ago. I'm not military or LE. I'm a recreational shooter shooting a Stag Arms carbine. I currently use iron sights and always have from my first days with my Winchester .22. I enjoy and aspire to shooting at "closer" distances on multiple targets much as I do when pistol shooting in an IDPA style to help my brother practice for matches. However, my eyesight isn't what it used to be which is why I'm considering an optic.

There seem to be many choices but I've only been considering two: Aimpoint and Eotech. I have shot a friends Eotech only a few times but have no Aimpoint experience. I am looking at the smaller Eotech XPS models with the transverse battery.

My questions:

1. Should I be looking at other manufacturer's models that would suit my purposes just as well? if so what would you recommend?

2. Outside of the battery life of the Aimpoint as a huge plus in some people's view is this a "Ford v. Chevy" type debate? Or are there real benefits in favor of one over the other? (It's so hard to tell from the posts I've read.) Some Eotech users point to its ability to quickly get on target. The Eotech's low profile appeals to me aesthetically but I don't know if that translates into real benefits or not and its short footprint appeals to me on the shorter carbine rail.

Thanks in advance,

Christian.

Hmac

15 February 2011, 18:15

Both Eotech and Aimpoint make great red dot sights. The XPS and EXPS line in particular address the biggest problem that has plagued Eotech's reputation and that is broken internal battery contacts. Personally, I prefer the Eotech reticle. That and the bigger window allow me to pick up the reticle quicker (both eyes open) and get it on target quicker. I just couldn't get used to the tube-like effect of the Aimpoints, which, along with the single dot, in my hands, impaired my ability to bring the optic into play as fast. Battery life is an absolute non-issue for me - I carry a spare. If I had to, I could carry 5 spares just between my stock and grip alone. That and the lower price makes Eotech the best choice for me. I really wanted to like my T-1, but it's in a drawer right now.

Consider the EXPS 2 OPMOD. It's a very nice sight, especially for $495. It comes with side buttons and a 7mm riser like the EXPS 3, but you're not paying for night vision capability.

This is just my opinion, having used both. I would never say the Aimpoint is a bad sight, but it wasn't optimal for me. If you can, take the opportunity to shoot both brands. You may feel differently.

Eric

15 February 2011, 22:07

Aimpoint and EOTech are the two primary optics to consider. You'll find the two debated back or forth continuously, with some occasionally heated opinions. I have several variants of each and have a slight preference for the EOTech reticle, but prefer the superior battery life of the Aimpoint. I currently use an EOTech on my duty carbine. For the most part, the EOTech cost is a bit lower, since you don't need to purchase a mount for it. However, the just released Aimpoint PRO model is changing that big time. MSRP is $440, which includes the mount. I've found it listed as low as $400. While still a big chunk of change, that price point is unprecedented for Aimpoint and will be hard to beat. I have one on order.

Related...
LINK (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2708-Need-Optic-Help&highlight=eotech+aimpoint)
LINK (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?574-Eotech-vs-Aimpoint&highlight=eotech+aimpoint)
LINK (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1224-Through-the-lens-Eotech-v-Aimpoint&highlight=eotech+aimpoint)

rob_s

16 February 2011, 06:11

As mentioned, Eotech and Aimpoint are the two major players in the RDS market. Also as mentioned, get some trigger time, actively shooting drills or a match, with both. This is one good thing about attending classes: you get a chance to try other things. There is nothing wrong with showing up to a class with irons only, and asking students with optics you are interested in what they think about them. Many times you will find they will volunteer to let you shoot it without even asking them. Virtually everyone will let you with a little prodding.

Try to keep in mind that people develop emotional attachments to things, and oftentimes will try a competing product only to be able to pay lip service to having done so. Foregone conclusions are a bitch to overcome, especially if people don't even realize they suffer from them. Try to peel the onion and find out why people really like what they like. I've dug down and found all kinds of alternate reasons for people's gear choices, from cost, to hero-worship of a personality that advocates one over another, to simply having made an initial selection in error and being unable to accept it. Most of these issues are entirely sub-conscious.

Also, don't fall into the "as good as" or "good enough" trap. There are a lot of knockoff brands, generally designed for airsoft and not real guns, making their way into the real-gun world. You'll find fans of all of them, and listen to them regale you with their "just as good" or "good enough" stories, just prior to seeing the thing go tits-up at a class. Stick to the known, major, brands.

My first RDS was an Eotech, then Aimpoints, and now I'm trying an Eotech again with the release of the XPS. No matter what Eotech does to the reticule, battery mount, etc. they will not compete for me on an even playing field until I can turn the optic on and leave it on for years as I can with the Aimpoint. I have heard every reason in the book for explaining away the short battery life, or why it doesn't matter, and I find them all fallacious. I have an Aimpoint H-1 that I bought in early 2008 and it has never been turned off and never had the battery replaced. A sub-set of the Eotech battery life is the automatic shut-off that is a necessity due to the short battery life. This is also a non-starter for me. I am of the opinion that no matter how great the reticule (this is a training issue), how wide the field of view (a placement issue or a training issue), if the optic isn't on when I pick up the gun, it's no good. To say nothing of the, perhaps largely anecdotal, lack of durability in the Eotech products over time.

As Eric mentions, the $400-410 street price of the Aimpint PRO removes one more reason for even considering the Eotech, as I suspect it was designed to do.

CLBME

16 February 2011, 08:50

Hmac

16 February 2011, 11:07

Thank you gentleman for your thoughtful and helpful replies as I knew they would be.

HMAC- can you explain what the OPMOD model encompasses that others don't? I read about it on Optic Planet's website but I frankly don't understand what makes it unique and thus stamped OPMOD? I'll read about it again and edit this post if I figure it out first.

The OPMOD is essentially an EXPS 3 minus the night vision capability. IOW, it comes with a lever quick-detach mount on a 7mm riser. I like the QD feature, prefer lower 1/3 co-witness, but have no need whatsoever for night-vision. I also occasionally use a flip-to-side magnifier, so I wanted the buttons on the side. Worked out fine for me. Yes, the OPMOD billboard on the side might be a little much. I solved that by spending $25 to have the hood cerakoted.

http://SSEquine.net/sbrop2.jpg

I really like the size and weight of the T-1, I just didn't find it to be as usable a sight as I had hoped for the reasons I mentioned. If I had hated it, I would have sold it. There are enough Aimpoint fanboys on these forums that I could have taken a truly negligible hit in doing so, but I'm finishing up a lightweight SBR and have kept the T-1 around to put on that rifle. In that role, it might meet my expectations better, somehow.

As to battery life, for the life of me I just cannot see the issue in my particular circumstances. CR123s are cheap and easy to carry. The Eotech gives plenty of warning about low battery life. Perhaps if my life routinely depended on my rifle and its optic, I could see the advantage to being able to leave it turned on for years, but it doesn't and I don't. At the very most, for my needs, it is merely a convenience and not one that's worth it to me to pay extra for or compromise usability for. For me. Naturally, you have to judge those issues for yourself relative to the circumstances you envision for your use of your rifle.

I do agree with Rob_s that the Aimpoint PRO is a very interesting-looking optic at a very attractive price point. I'll be interested to see a broad-based set of real-world reviews on the device when it hits the market in quantity. A 2 MOA dot with Aimpoint quality for $400....that's definitely worth looking into.

CLBME

16 February 2011, 12:16

Hi Hmac and thanks a lot for the follow up. I am in your camp on the batteries, but I am aware of my ignorance too. I temper my lack of experience with the realities of my recreational shooting. I use only CR123 powered flashlights and have a plentiful supply of them on hand usually, plus my MOE grip would allow for on-board carry.

I've narrowed it down to the EXPS line and the new PRO as mentioned. The price of the PRO is a real attraction but they are essentially in the same ballpark so as to fall back onto some experience with them as the deciding factor. I hope to try both before making a decision but I don't have access to either AFAIK as I haven't seen any locally at the range. Hopefully I can try them at a course I hope to take soon.

Thanks again.

Hmac

16 February 2011, 20:05

I've narrowed it down to the EXPS line and the new PRO as mentioned.

Yeah, you have to shoot them, or at the very least look through them at the shop somewhere. It will likely be awhile before you can see a PRO in person, but I think you'll get the idea by looking through any Aimpoint with a 2 MOA dot and a 30mm tube. Both devices are two-eyes-open optics, so do it that way in order to make sure you're judging field of view equally. Although this is the kind of decision that seems daunting, in reality I suspect you'll end up being happy with either decision. And if you're not, they're easy enough to resell without getting hurt much.

Stickman

16 February 2011, 21:40

Aimpoint continues to dominate in both battery life and overall durability. The newest, and cheapest Aimpoint is bound to do VERY well, and is worth a good hard look. Its still not a cheap piece of equipment, which may make finding a used optic something to think about as well.

CLBME

17 February 2011, 11:33

Thank you Stickman for your reply and to Hmac again as well. I do check around for a used one but I cannot help the thought that this may be a place where money is better spent on new? I've yet to find a real deal though........ The PRO has some real appeal given its price point as you've noted Stickman (as well as others).

I have one question at the moment, which I had meant to ask earlier:

Is it my perception or does the Aimpoint sit higher over the bore than the Eotech? Is there a benefit to that if it's indeed so v. the Eotech that seems to sit lower especially when it comes to co-witness? I have the standard FSB- it's not a flip-up on the rail.

Thanks again.

Christian.

Paulo_Santos

17 February 2011, 11:50

You can get both in standard co-witness or lower 1/3 co-witness.

Eric

17 February 2011, 13:07

Is it my perception or does the Aimpoint sit higher over the bore than the Eotech? Is there a benefit to that if it's indeed so v. the Eotech that seems to sit lower especially when it comes to co-witness? I have the standard FSB- it's not a flip-up on the rail.
It depends on the configuration of the particular Aimpoint or EOTech. Aimpoint mounts can be ordered to position the optic at an absolute co-witness height or lower third view. EOTechs were initially introduced with the built in mount set at an absolute co-witness, but they later introduced models with a 7mm riser to raise the optic to put the irons in the lower third view.

Related links...
Link (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2497-UNDERSTANDING-CO-WITNESS&highlight=absolute+co-witness+lower)
Link (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?881-How-do-you-prefer-your-co-witness&highlight=absolute+co-witness+lower)
Link (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2812-Question-about-aimpoint-and-co-witness&highlight=absolute+co-witness+lower)

CLBME

17 February 2011, 16:27

Thank you Eric for your reply and explanation. I had read the the first link- it was very helpful. The other two are great as well.

WE is a very valuable resource operated in such a helpful manner regardless of experience level.

Thanks a lot.

Christian

PS- As a complete surprise my brother was kind enough to order me a Nikon M223 1-4x scope when he ordered one for himself! I will get to use this for a while as my savings for a RDS grow. I'm really curious to see what I think about it.

Paulo_Santos

18 February 2011, 06:59

Personally, I like both sights. The one thing that bugged me about the Aimpoints was the prices. The new PRO helps a lot. If I hadto choose, I'd prefer the EOTech.

They are both great products and will work equally well. We have EOTechs on our patrol carbines and the auto shutoff has never been an issue. Neither has it been an issue on a home defense AR. Just leave the irons up and if you have time, turn the EOtech on. If you don't have time, use your irons, or in LE situations, if the target is that close, use your handgun. This is something that gets blown way out of porportion, IMHO.

CLBME

18 February 2011, 08:26

Good morning Paulo,

Thank you for the reply. I agree with your comments and for a layman like me it's a lot easier to filter out the battery issue, auto-shut off, etc. as the fact is I'm just a guy out shooting for enjoyment, relaxation, and some friendly competition. I can understand how other people's situations are completely unlike mine- frankly vastly different in ways I will never know, and therefore the issues may come back into consideration for them. For me it does come down to price, within my sentiments of "buy once/cry once" while trying to capture the best features for me. Thus the PRO does look very tempting. There are probably a lot of potential buyers for the same reason. I'm looking forward to trying each one soon and seeing what I think. Thanks again for the help.

rob_s

18 February 2011, 10:05

This is something that gets blown way out of porportion, IMHO.

From the opposite perspective, it's something that gets far too glossed over. Usually because of the issue in your second sentence. Easier to dismiss a weakness out of hand than to acknowledge it and address it.

AR-10

18 February 2011, 11:46

I don't have a lot to add, but I just went through this same thing when deciding on an optic for my M4.

I chose the Aimpoint over the EOTech because of battery life, and I can leave it turned on.

I wanted a compact tube with a simple dot that can stay powered up, and that's exactly what I got:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5020/img1227qc.jpg

Paulo_Santos

18 February 2011, 11:46

From the opposite perspective, it's something that gets far too glossed over. Usually because of the issue in your second sentence. Easier to dismiss a weakness out of hand than to acknowledge it and address it.

So then stick with Aimpoints and don't worry about it. I don't have a say-so in the optic I am issued, so I do the best thing, which is adapt and overcome. In every other way, I like the EOTechs better anyway, so I can live with the auto shut off and battery life, which has never been an issue for me, my co-workers, or our SWAT Team. Only seems to be an issue on the Internet. The speed and field obstruction of the EOTechs are better than the Aimpoints for me, and yes, I know how to use both optics with both eyes open and the EOTechs obstruct less.

TehLlama

18 February 2011, 13:28

I've killed my token EOTech, but I do agree that when I'm running it the 1/65MOA reticle is still my favorite out there. I just don't have confidence that it won't have drained the batteries after storing it for some time (had this happen with three different ones), so for that simple reason I now own 7 aimpoints.

Paulo_Santos

18 February 2011, 18:51

Eric

23 February 2011, 15:16

From the opposite perspective, it's something that gets far too glossed over. Usually because of the issue in your second sentence. Easier to dismiss a weakness out of hand than to acknowledge it and address it.
The EOTech line is less forgiving for those folks that fail to check their gear on a regular basis, to include battery status and mount tightness. I've seen EOTechs fall off the upper and drop in the dirt and guys pull them out to find the battery is DOA. In the case of the batteries, it is more often the older units, pre F marked. Exactly why anyone would run one those on a duty carbine is beyond me. The current 512 Rev F I'm running has never had an issue, but I run lithium batteries. However, I did have an earlier 512 go down, which was repaired and upgraded by EOTech.

The new Aimpoint PRO package is going to sell like hotcakes, especially since it includes the mount at or below the cost of most EOTech optics. I'd be happy to go to work with one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/Aimpoint/IMG_08592.jpg

Hmac

23 February 2011, 17:09

The new Aimpoint PRO package is going to sell like hotcakes, especially since it includes the mount at or below the cost of most EOTech optics. I'd be happy to go to work with one.

I'm anxious for one of you guys to get one. I'm very curious to see your review.

Eric

23 February 2011, 20:50

CLBME

24 February 2011, 05:49

Thank you for the picture and thoughts. I'm looking forward to your comments once you've used it for a while.

Hmac

25 February 2011, 08:27

The one in the photo is mine. Frankly, I anticipate the review to be short and uneventful. The PRO is very similar to the existing M2/ML2/M3/ML3/C3 line, with 3 yrs or so of run time and a 2 MOA dot. I'll be running it for a bit and see how it compares to the others, just so I can confirm it is GTG.

So, the only advantage to the PRO is price? What compromises have been made in construction or features that allows Aimpoint to sell it for $200 less than their next best optic?

Paulo_Santos

25 February 2011, 11:07

So, the only advantage to the PRO is price? What compromises have been made in construction or features that allows Aimpoint to sell it for $200 less than their next best optic?

Maybe they finally realized that people were fed up with paying $600+ for a red dot.

TehLlama

26 February 2011, 04:55

Cannon Fodder

26 February 2011, 06:14

I just placed my order for an Aimpoint PRO through G&R Tactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=12841) (the only ones I saw that had it in stock NOW - but watch out for the (Out of Stock) message). $426 shipped with replacement battery. Given the price point on a lot of other optics out there, I can't argue with that.

I've got plenty of real world experience with the Aimpoint CompM2, and judging from that I'll be perfectly happy with having this as an available optic. The rest of these guys are right. The PRO is nothing 'new' compared to the previous releases, but it sure is a great combination of form and function.

* Note, if you've been following my AR-15 build thread at all, I state that I want a Trijicon TA31/33 ACOG. I still plan on getting one, as I very much prefer those for precision applications.

Hmac

26 February 2011, 06:55

I figure they now have the tooling to crank out so many PRO units that they price can come way down, and they're producing a pretty intelligent mutt unit - using the older housing with the new diode setup. All they needed to do was deliver something with multiple year battery life in an existing package, so limited development costs with improved economies of scale. This is going to be huge as far as getting organization contracts.

So...why would anyone buy a Comp M4s at twice the price? Is it twice as good? In what way is it ANY better?

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's Kool-Aid. It's an impressive marketing accomplishment. I don't know much about Aimpoint optics and I'm curious about how they did it. This could change the whole RDS market.

Cannon Fodder

26 February 2011, 08:21

So...why would anyone buy a Comp M4s at twice the price? Is it twice as good? In what way is it ANY better?

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's Kool-Aid. It's an impressive marketing accomplishment. I don't know much about Aimpoint optics and I'm curious about how they did it. This could change the whole RDS market.

As stated above, I agree that this could very much change the market for Aimpoints and their share of the contracts. I might buy the M4 if I wanted the excessive battery life and the smaller MOA that some of the lower M-series optics don't have.

The PRO essentially has most of the popular features of the M-series without the extended battery life, and a 2 MOA dot. I can't see any good reason not to buy one. You're basically getting the power features of the M-series without the price, and an included mount / cap / threading system.

Of course there are opinions everywhere, and mine is one of them. I would have eventually purchased something from the M-series if this one wasn't available. You can easily save money by going with the C-series, at the cost of some of the rugged features, but this narrows the margin between the two.

TehLlama

26 February 2011, 11:24

So...why would anyone buy a Comp M4s at twice the price? Is it twice as good? In what way is it ANY better?

THAT is now the more relevant point - outside of existing units, it's going to be increasingly hard to justify the M2/M3/ML3 units, or ask so much more for the M4/M4S from civilians (they already own the M68CCO contract with their CompM4). The CompM4/CompM4S being able to accept a AA battery is the remaining reason to own it (the QRP mounts looks good on paper since it can't twist, but I'd rather run an LT or ADM anyway).

I don't think it will cut into the sales of their Micro units like the H1 and T1, but this might have a big effect on the Vortex Strikefire and other similar aimpoint-esque optics that are aimed at budget shooters.

Cannon Fodder

26 February 2011, 11:38

...(the QRP mounts looks good on paper since it can't twist, but I'd rather run an LT or ADM anyway).

Odd question here... So, I'm seeing that a lot of people opt for a different mount over the QRP/QRP2. Is that because mostly the purchased Aimpoint systems don't usually come with one unless it's a packaged deal?

I ask because my service M4 has the CompM2 and QRP mount (+absolute Co-witness), and I have no major complaints about it. It locks very, very securely to the rail and if anything the only issue I've ever had was the knob catching on a piece of equipment for a moment. The click-lock feature on the knob is a godsend, just click-click and its as tight as could be.

My personal opinion is that the QRP mount is a definite bonus here. Thoughts?

Paulo_Santos

26 February 2011, 12:33

Odd question here... So, I'm seeing that a lot of people opt for a different mount over the QRP/QRP2. Is that because mostly the purchased Aimpoint systems don't usually come with one unless it's a packaged deal?

I ask because my service M4 has the CompM2 and QRP mount (+absolute Co-witness), and I have no major complaints about it. It locks very, very securely to the rail and if anything the only issue I've ever had was the knob catching on a piece of equipment for a moment. The click-lock feature on the knob is a godsend, just click-click and its as tight as could be.

My personal opinion is that the QRP mount is a definite bonus here. Thoughts?

I agree. The mount is very good. You can always get the Aimpoint QD lever to replace the knob.

CLBME

3 March 2011, 15:31

Well I decided to go with the Aimpoint Pro. I didn't have the full amount for the Eotech XPS so I opted to buy the Aimpoint Pro and use the balance I had toward ammo. In the end I decided I really couldn't go wrong with either one and it simply came down to price- especially as a first-time RDS user. SKD emailed me today letting me know stock was back in. I was able to purchase the PRO for $405 shipped. It seems to be such a great deal. I am excited too because I believe my brother will buy the Eotech XPS so that we can compare and shoot both side by side. I'm looking forward to the comparison. I'm sure we'll both be happy. Thanks to all for your helpful replies and consideration.

As an aside I've been using a Nikon M223 1-4x, which was a gift from my brother. I really like the scope. It's great from from close range out to 200yds, beyond which I don't shoot. It gathers a lot of light and the point-blank reticle works well for me.

Thanks again,

Christian.

Cannon Fodder

4 March 2011, 10:31

CLBME,

Glad you were able to make an informed decision! Can't argue with a good optic and some ammo to test it with.

My order through G&R Tactical arrived today with a shiny new Aimpoint PRO. I had to watch my wife check it out over a webcam, but that's almost good enough right? ...right? /sigh. The only irk I had was that I didn't receive any confirmation of shipment or response through them when I asked for an update. I can't really fault them, though since the order certainly made it to the house.

Damn I can't wait till I get home in April.

CLBME

4 March 2011, 11:36

Hi Cannon,

Thank you for the reply. I'm glad yours arrived and that you were able to at least see it. April is almost here (Easily said from a guy who is already home I realize.) and you'll be able to hug your wife and check out the Aimpoint!!!! Best wishes for safe travels home and where you are now.

Christian

CLBME,

Glad you were able to make an informed decision! Can't argue with a good optic and some ammo to test it with.

My order through G&R Tactical arrived today with a shiny new Aimpoint PRO. I had to watch my wife check it out over a webcam, but that's almost good enough right? ...right? /sigh. The only irk I had was that I didn't receive any confirmation of shipment or response through them when I asked for an update. I can't really fault them, though since the order certainly made it to the house.

Damn I can't wait till I get home in April.