Factory 16" Middy upper accuracy

[Larrys1911]

My First post here.... this site is really GREAT, congrats you guys are doing a fantastic job.

OK to my Question:

I have built ARs from the ground up and I have the tools but in looking at the prices on uppers I dont see the point from a cost POV for a quality 16" 5.56 upper so Im looking at just buying one.

Assuming that reliability on the Bravo SS is comparable with the Hard Chrome Lined barrel which one of these are most accurate?
How much difference is there. From what I can see there is about $200 difference between the most & least expensive listed

If the Noveske is the way to go then I dont mind the extra $200. I did find the writeup from Molon on another forum about accuracy of Noveske barrels. I also understand that I will have to reload to get good accuracy.

barrels A Noveske Light Recce Basic

A Daniel Defense

A Bravo Standard

A Bravo BFH

A Bravo SS410

A Spikes Tactical

If I should add someone let me know (I don't want a Colt or CMMG...personal thing)

Thanks for the help

Larry

[Stickman]

The Noveske N4 barrels are known to be quite accurate, but if accuracy is the only thing you care about, the Noveske SS barrels can probably eek out a bit better groups if you are spending the time to hand load and try out different powders and bullets.

[hikeeba]

Hi Larry, and welcome to WEvo.

Because you have different types of barrels listed in your post, perhaps you should evaluate/define what you consider to be 'good accuracy.' I think all of your options listed are capable of some interpretation of 'good accuracy,' but (for example) I would think the mechanical accuracy potential of Bravo company's SS410 barrel would likely be better than their Standard barrel.

[TehLlama]

Before you get too far, ask how much you're willing to invest in ammunition (cost/time). Any good SS barrel, and many of the higher end CL-CHF units will outshoot all but the best factory match and accurate hand loads, so if you're only planning on running decent quality stuff through it, most any of those barrels will work great. The only point of this is that it's not going to be worth ponying up that extra $200 if you're only going to be shooting 3MOA accurate ammunition through it anyway.

The mid/recce/taper contoured 16" Middy should be capable of plenty of mechanical accuracy, a Bravo Company, Noveske, Centurion, Rainier, or WhiteOak should work exceedingly well in that role.

[Paulo_Santos]

Why type of build is this going to be? Precision build or something else. My LMT Piston Upper, which has a chrome lined barrel shoots close to 1 MOA. If you want something that shoots consistently under 1 MOA, I'd get a SS barrel.

[BravoHotel]

Before you get too far, ask how much you're willing to invest in ammunition (cost/time). --- The only point of this is that it's not going to be worth ponying up that extra $200 if you're only going to be shooting 3MOA accurate ammunition through it anyway.

Very good point and one that many (including myself) seem to forget from time to time.

[rob_s]

Agree with everything else posted so far. You need to establish your need, weigh against the realities of your situation, and go from there.

[Stickman]

Agree with everything else posted so far. You need to establish your need, weigh against the realities of your situation, and go from there.



Rob- Didn't you get some very good groups out of one of your BCM uppers?

[rob_s]

Depends on your definition of "good". :D

With Black Hills 77 grain, shooting four, 5-round groups, I got an average of 1.4 MOA out of a 14.5" BCM RECCE 14 rifle. With 62 grain Brown Bear I got 3 MOA.

I am not a bench shooter, and typically damn near fall asleep at the trigger, so someone else might have done even better.

[Larrys1911]

Ok guys,

thanks alot for all the replies.....

Since no one knows me Ill give a little background.

Im IDPA CDP/ESP/SSP master and I have classified IPSC production Master. I shoot some three gun and steel locally but its club level stuff and honestly I havent shot much in the last 7 yrs.....Son was born in addition to a butt load of family crap happening and running two businesses I just havent had the time but I went from shooting 12K+ rounds a year just in pistol to NOTTA.

Im an amature gunsmith, Ive built a few ARs and even done some stuff for the local Sherrifs SWAT teams ARs. thats a interesting subject too.

As far as this build,Its gonna be used for all around whatever. Matches and hopefully some Training Classes as I have never had a class on Tac Rifle.... In a SHTF situation My Wife or Mother may be holding this thing if its that bad... Ill most likely have a 6.8 in my hands...

now as far as accuracy, Im most worried about reliability, which I understand is more of a chamber issue barrel wise so that will limit the amount of accuracy I can achive, but with the listed uppers I dont think thats a problem! Iin all honesty I will most likey mount some glass to this thing so I know what "IT" is capable of in my hands, (with match quality ammo, most likely reloads) and then it will have a dot scope on it for most of its life.

this is a hang up I have, probably some form of OCDC but if its not accurate I wont shoot it. If I KNOW it will shoot past my abilities I have no problem with it. In reality this build has no NEED to be better than 3MOA at 100yd and I KNOW that....
However if its capable of 1MOA out to 200 yds it will get USED If I can get 1.5 MOA out of it I will be OK....
Barrel life really doesnt interest me as long as I can get 10K out of it Im happy anything more than that is gravy....
10K in todays prices is what close to 9 or 10 barrels..... Im not a mag dump kinda guy other than to see if it will run. So I guess Running and gunning in a match or training class is about as much as it will be punished heat wise.

Im not set on anything and honestly if I can build it for around the same money Ill do that, but GOOD quality uppers seem to be relatively cheap now and I dont really see that I can do much better with the money I have to spend but I could space it out and spend a little more over time without a problem I guess.

Just looked at Centurian barrels and was thinking maybe I should just build around CHF chrome lined barrel from them...Last time I actually had to build one from the ground up I didnt have as many choices....It was a 6.8.

OK I think I covered everything and once again THANK YOU ALL
Good Lord its nice to come to a place where everyones not posting " Just buy an X and youll be happy."

THIS IS GREAT. People with experience and a genuine interest in helping....

THANKS AGAIN for the help.

Larry

[TripleBravo]

Larry,

Unless things have changed, the Noveske and Centurion Arms cold hammer forged barrels come from the same place. They are very good barrels for a combat rifle, in my opinion, but I agree with Stickman, that you'll find the Stainless Steel barrels offer a bit more accuracy. The profile of the Noveske SS barrels give them a bit more heft in my experience -- which is not necessarily a bad thing. Though I tend to always lean towards building my own uppers, I think a Noveske SS upper would fit your bill nicely. You may also want to take a look at Larue's offerings.

[rob_s]

What a barrel can, and can't, do in an AR in my experience has had far more to do with the ammo being fed to it and the person pulling the trigger than the barrel itself.

(within reason, of course)

I agree with the recommendation of Noveske barrels, but would stick with the medium contour due to weight considerations. Their full contour plus their proprietary rail system makes for a very heavy gun.

[Stickman]

Larry,

Unless things have changed, the Noveske and Centurion Arms cold hammer forged barrels come from the same place.


Centurion Arms barrels are using a taper, but aside from that they should be highly similar, and both should prove to be very accurate long lasting barrels.

[Stickman]

Depends on your definition of "good". :D

With Black Hills 77 grain, shooting four, 5-round groups, I got an average of 1.4 MOA out of a 14.5" BCM RECCE 14 rifle. With 62 grain Brown Bear I got 3 MOA.

I am not a bench shooter, and typically damn near fall asleep at the trigger, so someone else might have done even better.


I must have been smoking dog food over here, I thought you shot a uber group with a BCM CHF barrel. 1.4 sounds like an honest barrel, especially for an off the shelf, non-special, not a mega ninja uber stealthy long name barrel.

[rob_s]

You may have looked at the group sizes without noticing the range. All of the above were shot at 50 yards and I doubled the size in the post.

I also only have one CHF barrel in the safe and it's the Dissipator with irons, although one day I'll group it.

[Larrys1911]

OK guys, So Noveske no surprise there...

The Centurion Barrels, I have read about them having a taper but I dont understand.... so there is a taper in the actual bore of the barrel? what are we accomplishing
with the taper?

Anyone have a problem with the White Oak barrels for what I am talking about? I noticed they have a Wylde chamber, how does that affect reliability?

Now how much difference in accuracy are we talking about? Yea I know there are no hard and fast numbers but you guys sound like you have owned and/or been around
a bunch more ARs than I have. So Im asking for a SWAG I guess 8^).

Larry

[rob_s]

I hate to keep beating the same dead horse, but what type of ammo do you plan to shoot? Have you thought at all about how the type of ammo you wnt to shoot plays out when you factor in cost x number of rounds per year you plan to shoot? For example the 77 grain Black Hills that I've had the best results with is about $1/round. XM193 is about $0.30/round. Steel-case is <$0.25/round. If you shoot 5k rounds/year that makes a big difference. Or, if you annual ammo budget is $5k, that means shooting 3x as much ammo if you shoot the XM193.

If ammo money is no object then I'd bet that barrel money is too, and I'd just pop for the Noveske or a stainless BCM.

I do understand what you're asking, I think, which is "two otherwise identical barrels and a good shooter with good ammo, how much more accurate is the stainless over the chrome-lined?". Right? I don't know of any such test off the top of my head but I think a stainless barrel with hat same Black Hills could shoot <1" groups at 100 yards with the right shooter and ammo and optic. Even the best chrome-lined barrel is going to be 1.5-2" groups at 100.

[Eric]

You may have looked at the group sizes without noticing the range. All of the above were shot at 50 yards and I doubled the size in the post.

I also only have one CHF barrel in the safe and it's the Dissipator with irons, although one day I'll group it.
You clearly haven't got this errornet thing down. One is supposed to shoot 3 round groups at 25 yards, pick the best one, post photos and claim it is a 100 yard sub MOA group, which you can shoot all day long. [BD]

So, I'll embarrass myself now. I just returned back from the range where I shot a standard CL Armalite mid-length with an EOTech. After getting it a bit dirty and warmed up, I ran a 20 round mag through at 50 yards, shooting four 5 round groups about as quick as I could without getting booted off the public range. The groups ran from about 1" to 1 3/4", while shooting from a bench. Ammo was 55 gr HSM reloads.

[Larrys1911]

Rob you hit the nail on the head......

Thats what Im looking for on the barrels.

As far as ammo Im most likely gonna shoot normal run of the mill brass cased cheap ammo or reloads with whatever happens to be cheapest bullet. But I will work with it to get an accurate load with a good bullet and then I will load 1-200 stick them away along with the info I have, Ill take the glass off and put a dot sight on and all will be right with the world according to me.....Im sure its an OCD thing... [crazy]

If a Noveske Chrome lined or Centurion Chrome lined wont get me any better than 1.5 -2, I better go with a SS as long as its as reliable.... I KNOW from a practical POV it wont matter a bit, from a Larry POV its the difference between a gun that sits in the safe and one that gets shot. or maybe the difference between being satisfied and wanting to build another one thats what I wanted in the first place. I understand that I wont get that top level accuracy from my match loads or run of the mill store bought ammo, but on the other hand I know I CAN get that accuracy if I want it. But I also want to know Im not getting accuracy at the expense of reliability.

And I absolutely know that it takes a shooter to actually get those groups. Im not an equiptment hound, I try to buy the best I can afford and splurge a little on top of that but I also know I have to do my part. just humor me and assume I can shoot [:D]
Again, Thanks for your time and help

Larry

[Larrys1911]

TWENTYFIVE YARDS?

WOW thats long distance....

I thought you were supposed to put up two targets (one on top of another) and shoot at 5' take the bottom target (with no powder burns) and claim it was a 300yd tgt you shot with wolf ammo rapid fire from the hip with both eyes closed.
and of course that was the worst group of the day.

Larry

[rob_s]

My take on it, and I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, is a bit different...

You can buy the most accurate, stainless barrel, AR you can find if that's your obsession. But it's going to be heavy, it's going to be more prone to rust, and it may shoot out faster if used as a blasting gun. Personally, none of these things would be conducive to my actually shooting the thing. What it would mean to me is that it would sit in the safe while my lightweight, chrome-lined, 11.5" barrel, 6933 gets taken out every single time, and which I know for a fact I can drill 8" steel plates at 200 yards with an Aimpoint all day long.

[Paulo_Santos]

The WOA barrels are some of the best barrels for the money. They aren't true Match barrels like the Noveske, but they are very accurate and will last around 10k before the accuracy starts to drop. The taper on the centurion barrels is to help in accuracy. If you are undecided and you want good accuracy, I'd get the centurion.

With a good scope, ammo, trigger, and the guy pulling the trigger, the centurion barrel will be able to shoot MOA (10 rounds at 100 yards). As I wrote before, even my LMT Piston AR is capable of 1.25 MOA with match ammo (10 rounds at 100 yards). There are some people on the Internet that can actually shoot pretty well. LOL.

[johnson]

I shot these in December with a factory BCM 16" chrome line middy off a front bag and an Aimpoint M4. I "think" I couldve gotten a little bit tighter groups with a good scope but who knows. With PMC or XM193 I got about 3MOA.

I was out yesterday with a new build consisting of a Centurion Arms 16" LW Middy and Aimpoint M2 and I was getting closer to 2" with PMC ammo. I only put it together a few weeks ago so I havent put any match ammo but I expect closer to 1MOA with good optics.

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