Feed Ramps Incorrect

[lamarbrog]

I just brought home a rifle today. 20" government profile barrel, flat top upper receiver, and an A2 stock. Just what I wanted.

Upon getting it home, though... It appears they put an upper with M4 Feed Ramps on a barrel that has a standard A2 barrel extension. The front sight is not F-marked (I was aware of this and planned to use the Bushmaster tall post.) Now it looks like they simply put an M16A2 style barrel on an M4 upper and called it good.

Obviously, this rifle is defective and not even close to being satisfactory. What are my options? I called the company and spoke with a rep, he's going to email his boss for more information (he wasn't especially knowledgeable, although friendly).

I guess I'm assuming this is probably what they do every single day, since they plainly told me they aren't using F-marked FSBs. .... What should I do? Tell them to go buy the right parts on the open market? Try to get them to reimburse me for getting it fixed on my own?

I don't really want to do a dremel hack job on a brand new rifle from the factory.

What a headache.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/DSCN0686.jpg

[Paulo_Santos]

See if they will fix it or get your money back.

[Eric]

If it were me, I would return it and request a full refund. If they are unaware of the difference, I would not want them assembling anything of mine. Are they a local outfit, or...?

[lamarbrog]

They are local to me, but they do distribute throughout the states.

I've really lost my faith in their abilities. Fortunately, though, I am fairly competent when it comes to the AR15. (Built rifles for a small outfit, and I can tell you those were built right.) The parts they are sourcing have good specs... they just don't seem to know how to match parts up right. I figure I can fix any mistakes they've made, as long as they supply the proper parts.

I could have built it myself... But the rifle was basically what I wanted already, and was a good deal.

[Bob Reed]

Hello,

Who made this rifle?

[lamarbrog]

I don't want to slam them too hard, since they are being very cooperative in getting this resolved.

In the end I'll make sure the whole story gets posted, including the company. I don't want their name to be attached to the defect without also being attached to the resolution, be it good or bad.

[lamarbrog]

I noticed this before... but wasn't too concerned. Doesn't that look like field expedient gas key staking? I guess it'll hold, but I don't think I'd consider it proper. One of the fasteners was really easy to tighten more with just modest torquing with a hex wrench. I'd have tightened it more, but the Taiwanese fastener started to deform (you can see it a little) so I stopped.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/DSCN0695.jpg

What is the consensus on this? Pushing on the carrier, the charging handle and bolt carrier group won't go all the way into battery because the charging handle falls down and catches on the upper. None of my other rifles do this... does it matter?
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i190/Lamarbrog/DSCN0699.jpg

..... Maybe I should just ask for a refund after all..... The quality control on this is kind of disappointing. Am I being too picky?

[Striker071]

OK send that back. I wouldn't trust that rifle to work properly if my life was on the line....

[lamarbrog]

The store I bought it from has it plainly posted that all sales are final, no refunds. (I mentioned it to the manager today, he said that he didn't consider the current feed ramps to be a problem as long as the rifle functions.)

So I guess I'll deal with the manufacturer directly, which seems to be working well so far. If they can't fix it satisfactorily within the next week or so, I'll ask for a refund.

The whole reason I got this rifle was for a defensive rifle. I have a TA31F-G ACOG to put on it right now... don't want to shoot it, though, until the warranty work is complete.

[Aragorn]

..... Maybe I should just ask for a refund after all..... The quality control on this is kind of disappointing. Am I being too picky?

A rifle mishmashed together with shoddy parts by people who don't know what they're doing? Hell no. Lose that thing and never look back. The people at McDonalds may be friendly, but that doesn't mean I have to eat their McNuggets, or that doing so is a good idea.

[Hmac]

There's a lesson about rifle manufacturing, consumer responsibility, and gun shop quality in this sad story. The OP clearly knows about rifles. Why would you take this bargain-basement approach to buying a defensive weapon instead of buying or assembling one that you know is made of quality parts by someone or some company that knows WTF they're doing?

[Tactical Ninja]

I agree with striker send it back. This is why I like to build my own rifles, I know the parts are going to be in spec.

[lamarbrog]

Well, I guess I'll explain my reasoning.

I've built a few rifles, and they're fine. I wanted a 20" barrel of steel compliant with Mil-B-11595-E, a bolt made of 158 Carpenter, and receivers made of 7075T6 forgings... and figured if I could get that already assembled for a decent price, I'd just upgrade extractor springs, etc. on my own. I was running into a few issues with getting parts (the parts I wanted) from my preferred dealers, so I thought I'd support local business and get what I wanted at the same time.

They're a nationally-distributed manufacturer of rifles in my home town. I didn't find a real plethora of information on their website so I had a fairly lengthy exchange of emails with them. 4150 barrel steel, 1/7 twist, chrome lined, and a chamber cut to 5.56NATO specs. Black anodizing on the upper and lower without that funky Teflon some companies are doing. Bolt was 158 Carpenter.

They weren't doing HPT and MPI... but I planned to put 1000 rounds through it before I ever needed to use it, so I wasn't especially concerned. The front sight was not F-marked, but I have an ACOG I want to use primarily anyway, and a Bushmaster taller front sight post is only something like $6.

They actually have pretty decent specs on their parts. It seems that they just don't really have any idea how to put them together.

I called again today for an update... apparently the boss man is at Camp Perry and won't be back until Monday. He'd have to okay the repair. Seems kind of irresponsible to go on vacation for a week and not leave anyone in charge who could give the okay on warranty work. I can't really give an ear full to the poor guy who has to answer the phone... he didn't build it, it isn't his mistake, and it isn't his fault he was abandoned by his superior to deal with problems while having no authority. When his boss is back in town, though, he'll definitely get a lesson in how a business is supposed to be operate along with the lesson on how a rifle is supposed to be built.

So, until Monday I guess I'm just going to analyze it and see what else is wrong with it. On the plus side, they got the right spring under the safety and the fire control group is installed correctly. [BD]

Edit to add: I didn't consider this a bargain basement approach when I bought it. I considered it a fair price on a rifle with good core parts. Patrick Sweeney's Book of the AR15 Volume II even has a section on the company in question. He noted a minor problem with a dust cover spring being installed incorrectly (didn't go into much detail) but overall said they seemed to be good rifles.

I'm a wanna-be small-time gun writer... Published something a few years back on some terminal ballistics research I did. I actually had hoped to do a pretty thorough article reviewing this rifle... Yeah...

[TehLlama]

You're handling this right... just keep track of how many extra hours you've put into this, multiply those hours by how many $ you consider your time worth, and then compare the cost difference to the other options evaluated. That in and of itself might be a pretty insightful article if you ask me.

[lamarbrog]

Okay, I called them today since the boss was supposed to be back in town. Apparently, the boss is reviewing the email I sent explaining the issue in detail and is going to "make some comments" this afternoon or this evening in a reply. It doesn't sound like anything is going to be done about it today, and it also sounds like they may not even be aware of this at all as being an issue. I'm a bit concerned at the moment that I may get an email explaining to me why I am wrong.

As the customer, what I said when it comes to this needs to be backed up if they dispute it. Is the graphic provided by ar15barrels.com the best source I can cite?

Edit at 8:50pm to add: Well... I'd say evening has passed and we're entering the realm of "tonight". Still no email. They were actually supposed to call me today when I called them because it was getting later in the work day. The quality of the product and the customer service has, so far, been a fiasco.

[lamarbrog]

This morning I called after never receiving an email last night. I talked to a different person today who told me to come on down and they'd do something. So, I guess I'm going to go see exactly what it is they'll do.

[lamarbrog]

Well, I just got back from my two hour ordeal.

The President of High Standard Manufacturing Company unlocked the door to let me in. I kind of assumed he knew who I was... but he told me he had not been informed I was coming, and had never seen any of the emails I sent. Great.

I showed him the feed ramp issue. He quickly explained that they make all their rifles that way and that they hadn't had any problems. I told him it wasn't my problem that every rifle they've built is incorrect, I just wanted mine to be repaired.

After a little bit of heated discussion he finally agreed to replace the upper, but he has to order it. He still doesn't admit it is incorrect, he is just doing it to solve the "cosmetic" issue to make me happy. It'll probably take about a week to get the part in.

I showed him the charging handle issue.... CMMG replaced a charging handle that was like this for me a few years ago, agreeing that it was in fact defective. The President of High Standard didn't consider it a problem as long as it functions. Any rifle that functions is not considered defective to them- if a bullet will go down the bore, the rifle is fine. O.o

So hopefully this will be repaired soon... then I will swap the charging handle out and replace the gas key and fasteners.

I guess it's pretty good of them to fix something, free of charge, that they don't consider to be a problem..... the biggest issue is they don't consider this to be a problem. I think I might email a few different manufacturers and see what they have to say about this feed ramp configuration, and show that to these folks.

Just very disappointed... but glad it's getting fixed. Had to leave the rifle with them.

[Eric]

Ah yes, High Standard. When a company advertises " All weapons are mil spec..." a red flag immediately goes up. I had a brief chat with them at SHOT and was underwhelmed. Their web site certainly lacks details about their products.

[lamarbrog]

What really scares me is they claim military contracts rebuilding rifles.

If shoddy works and parts like this are making it to combat... I pity whoever is issued a rifle they rebuilt.

I'm very seriously considering selling off the upper to someone who just wants a plinker and upgrading to a Saber Defense. I want a rifle I can depend on for this project, and I don't have any confidence in their upper half.

On the bright side, though, their lower is very nice. Some of the best feeling controls I've ever encountered. The safety is stiff enough that I don't worry about it changing positions unintentionally. It snaps into place firmly. I also like their anodizing color... a nice matte black. The safety button is installed well so it is has a very even surface. Overall, I don't think I could ask for a better lower.

[Stickman]

This should serve as a powerful warning to people. Thanks for posting your story, and I hope people learn from it.

[lamarbrog]

They called this morning to tell me the rifle was done and ready for pick up. Fast... I was surprised.

They did get the upper changed out. I thought maybe they'd change the charging handle just to make me happy, but they didn't. (They had insisted nothing was wrong with it... in spite of what you see in the photos, and the extreme force it took to unlock the latch.)

When I got home I swapped the charging handle with one from a spare CMMG upper I've had for a while. Works perfectly. Very smooth.

As soon as I get the gas key and fasteners swapped out, torqued down to the proper inch-pounds with some Loc-Tite, and staked properly I think this rifle will be a keeper.

The trigger pull is still heavy. I did a little polishing on it with a sharpening stone which smoothed it up some. Extremely positive sear engagement. It's got to be a 10-12 pound trigger, although I don't have a scale.

By the time this is all done... I estimate I'll have about six or seven hours total, probably $40 in parts, and some gas burned.

[eldogg]

i purchased one of their complete lowers a few years back. you right about the trigger pull. had to change out the trigger assembly. other than that, it is a good lower.

[lamarbrog]

I shot this thing a couple days ago, before I changed the gas key and fasteners.

It functioned. I only had time to put about 65 rounds through it. Most of it was Wolf, but I did put a few rounds of various other stuff through it. No problems.

Didn't get much of a chance to zero. (It's hard when the sun is in your eyes, the ACOG is blooming, the bench is wobbling, and you're shooting Wolf.) When I have the opportunity to actually try shooting a group with some good ammo I'll post up the results.

As of now... I'm actually starting to like this rifle alright.

[wolf_walker]

I think you should write up a very through review, including all this and the good, and post it in all the usual places, and forward it to them. If a person or company continually gets away with a thing and makes money, they aren't ever going to correct there behavior.

[lamarbrog]

I actually purchased this rifle with the intent of writing a review on it, in combination with an ACOG I recently purchased. Since it's a company based in my home town that doesn't seem to get much press, I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea.

I've got about five pages now, and am still writing. I'm going to throw a thousand rounds or so through it before I finish. I'm keeping a detailed log of maintenance and round count.

[Stickman]

I might have missed this part, but what ever happened with the feedramps?

[lamarbrog]

I think I mentioned it, but I'll reiterate to make it clear.

After assuring High Standard I had no intention of using a defective rifle, they finally agreed to replace the M4 Carbine-style upper receiver with an M16A4-style upper receiver. (A flat top with no feed ramp reliefs.) This took about 3 days, since they had to order the new upper receiver. So, the rifle now has standard rifle feed ramps, which doesn't bother me a bit. (In my opinion, with the relatively low operating pressure of the 16" gas system on a 20" barrel, and the considerable weight of the rifle buffer, I don't consider M4 feed ramps to really be much of a benefit on this rifle.)

I'm getting settled in at college right now, but in the next couple weeks I'll be placing an order for a replacement gas key and fasteners. I'll most likely order these parts as well as some more spare parts (extractor, gas rings, etc.) from BC-USA. Shortly after that I'll buy 1000 rounds of Wolf from wherever I can find it cheapest and do some extensive test firing to make sure everything is holding together.

[Striker071]

OK the most distresisng part about this whole incident to me is the comment " We make all our rifles this way." I am not a gunsmith but from the picture you showed it is a rifle extension put on a m4 cut receiver. Tha t is a Jam"O"matic waiting to happen. Wouldn't most 20 inch barrels have a rifle extension on them unless specified? Last but not least. Get a new BCG from a quality manufacturer ... still get the parts to fix the other BCG and keep that one for a spare. Take the parts and get it to a reputable smith that does quality work and have them do a quality stake job.

[lamarbrog]

OK the most distresisng part about this whole incident to me is the comment " We make all our rifles this way."
Yeah... that was the part that really got the o.O factor going with me, too. Whether it would work or not... this isn't how a rifle i supposed to be built.


I am not a gunsmith but from the picture you showed it is a rifle extension put on a m4 cut receiver.
Yes, that's exactly what it is. They do this so they only have to stock one kind of upper receiver. I guess they don't know they'd be better off only stocking the kind that isn't relieved for M4 cuts, if they are going to cut corners like that.



That is a Jam"O"matic waiting to happen. Wouldn't most 20 inch barrels have a rifle extension on them unless specified?
Even though it isn't right... it would probably work. The ignorant would probably never know it was wrong... unless your rifle is cycling really fast (not likely on a 20") or your magazine is really sloppy (most in civilian hands never see enough use, and no-tilt followers have remedied a lot of this) you'd probably be just fine. I'd rather not worry about it, though.


Last but not least. Get a new BCG from a quality manufacturer ... still get the parts to fix the other BCG and keep that one for a spare. Take the parts and get it to a reputable smith that does quality work and have them do a quality stake job.
I built AR15s for a small company for almost two years... I'll do my own work, including the staking. The only reason I had the company replace the upper receiver was because I didn't want to buy it myself, and they insisted they had to install it so they could test fire it to check headspacing after the work was done. (Which doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense... Changing the upper, without changing the bolt or barrel isn't going to change headspacing. And, you don't check headspacing by test firing the rifle to see if it "blows up". o.O)
I'll probably just extensively test fire the current bolt carrier group after I upgrade it and use that. They're supposed to be using 158 Carpenter, so it's probably an okay part. They didn't manufacture it, I can guarantee that... so it might be okay. The bolt in the M16 at the company I worked at had well over the 10,000 rounds they're usually good for and it was going strong, and it was a High Standard rifle.

We'll see.