SPR/DMR Rifle & BUIS

[Specialized Armament]

As our precision rifle project moves forward, we have begun to question a couple of features of existing MK12 Mod 0/1 variants and clones thereof. The question on the front burner is the use of BUIS with an etched reicule, variable power scope. I understand the value of BUIS used with an Aimpoint, Eotech or other battery powered RDS. I just happen to believe they are pointless when mounted on a precision rifle deployed with a quality variable power scope.

Is the contingency argument the only one that can be made favoring the use of BUIS? Would switching to BUIS as an active shooter limit your intended role? These questions are further complicated unless you are also using a QD type scope mount.

While our project rifle will not be offered with any primary or back up sights, we thought it was good topic for discussion.

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[Paulo_Santos]

It all depends on the primary use of the SPR. If I was using an SPR out in Afghan or Iraq, I would want to have BUIS and the scope on QD mounts. The main reason is that if I were to go from the perimeter to CQB, I'd take off the scope and use the BUIS.

Now if this was an SPR for plinking/target shooting, I wouldn't need BUIS.

[TehLlama]

I'd still prefer to have them, though I'm going to try and evaluate the concept of running offset iron sights (KAC) as both backups and CQC sights rolled into one, but for the existing cost and weight of a precision rifle I'd rather have a pair of light BUIS and a QD mount for the optic anyway - I'd only omit them on a range-only or competition-only rifle.

[johnson]

I don't see them as pointless but what I think it comes down to is how damn expensive they are. You're looking at $190 and up for a Troy or KAC set. If the argument of not having irons is because of added cost then I would agree that the money could be better spent elsewhere on a precision orientated rifle. What if we skip the irons to go with an Aimpoint Micro on a good QD mount? In Paul's scenario, instead of taking off the scope to use irons in a CQB/building clearing situation I'd rather just swap it to an Aimpoint.

On a personal note, I'm building up a precision upper and am selling my BUIS set. I've thought about the same thing in the first post and have come to the conclusion that I would rather use that money to put towards the scope or tax stamp than irons that will get very little use. If money was no issue then I don't see a downside to having them other than adding a few ounces.

[TripleBravo]

Mark...I tend to agree wtih your position. I could see adding a MRDS as an option if you found yourself in need of making a close range shot with your SPR, but I see no real value in adding traditional BUIS to an SPR.

[Aragorn]

Pulling a DMR role with an SPR, switching to BUIS would absolutely limit your intended role, but you would still be combat effective. While I will for the most part agree that yes, you probably will never need them. Sometime's things like this happen.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5245197655_179b62824c.jpg

This is a man who desperately wants BUIS. What else do you do in this situation? Go to (assuming you have one) your handgun? Look at your partner whimsically and ask if he has something you can borrow? Again, likely you won't ever need them, but this is an excellent place to run with the condom theory. Better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them. Especially at the cost of mere ounces.


If the argument of not having irons is because of added cost then I would agree that the money could be better spent elsewhere on a precision orientated rifle. What if we skip the irons to go with an Aimpoint Micro on a good QD mount?


This makes no sense. You can't afford iron sights of any sort, but can scrape up the dough for an H-1 and QD mount? Whatever, but let's roll with that for a moment. If you're at range and/or have adequate cover and time by all means, yank that scope and go to the dot. That would be FABULOUS! Can't really get better than that, unless you're carrying another DMR style optic already zero'd to your rifle. But this isn't a perfect world, and Murphy has already got you once today, and NOW your switching to another electronic sight? Even the mighty aimpoint can fail. Also, yanking the downed scope and deploying irons is relatively fast when compared with completely swapping out optics, which is a big deal if you're taking fire.

Of course, I'm speaking purely in terms of an individual in a real DMR role in a warzone environment. If it's on a race gun, leave the BUIS at home.

My question is, what is having them, even if you DO never use them, really hurting?

[Paulo_Santos]

I agree that some BUIS are rediculously overpriced. The Magpul MBUS GEN II and even the ARMS #71 cost under $100 per set.

[TehLlama]

On the above point, I'd agree. A set of used MBUS Gen1's will come in significantly below that price, but on the higher priced side, I think there is a pretty compelling argument on the budget oriented side of this (users for whom this is a second/third rifle) that instead of spending $200 on BUIS, that money could better go towards higher quality glass or mounting hardware. This assumption is made based on the SPR/DMR not being the go-to rifle, and that any case where firing it at a range where iron sights are practical in civilian use (300m w/ solid target identification, optimistically?) that the optic is too integral a part of the weapon system in civilian use, and moving to a shorter carbine would be as effective.
I've revised my own position to be that if at any point the rifle becomes the only long gun conveniently available, then BUIS. But they needn't be high end ones, since in all likelihood the NF/Leupold optics on mine will outlive me.

[Paulo_Santos]

One thing is for sure about this topic, and that is that no one is wrong on this because it is a personal thing. I personally like to practice a lot with irons, so I prefer to have BUIS and to have my optics on QD mounts. Just a personal preference. If it is your rifle, set it up for your intended use.

[Stickman]

I see no reason at all to include BUIS in your project. While there are reasons you can list for having them, the main one seems to be your scope being hit. In that same line of reasoning, you should carry an extra weapon just in case any other part gets hit. There are times when I think you just have to know bad things can happen.

I've been kicking around an article for Army Times regarding what a Mk12 mod3 would look like. With the advent of newer rails, and availability of other cans, I think there is no question a cheaper weapon could be built with more modern components while still yielding stunning results.

Old rails with large locking collars are like hand cranked copy machines, I just don't see a need for them anymore.

[TripleBravo]

...Old rails with large locking collars are like hand cranked copy machines, I just don't see a need for them anymore.

DITTO! (pun intended)

[rob_s]

I don't see what having sights in that application would hurt. I also don't see what it would hurt not to include them on a factory gun.

[Stickman]

DITTO! (pun intended)

Nicely played....