Piston Upper Suggestions by Manufacturer

[BravoHotel]

In all my curiosity I've decided to purchase a piston uppper (complete) to give it a go and see what they're like. I know each camp has it's opinions on DI v Piston but let's leave that out of this. I really don't want this to become a debate. I'm looking at this from a research, trial and error, and experience standpoint.

So, my question -- in shopping around and researching I'm curious from those with experience or fact based insight what manufacturers you would suggest. Looking at Rainier I see they offer:
* Adams Arms
* Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF)
* Primary Weapon Systems (PWS)

Any other manufacturers I should consider? Would appreciate any insight on the different ones and the pros/cons of each system. Anything from the piston system they use to the interchangeability of handguards/rail systems down the road along with parts availability etc.

Basically what should I know or consider before buying one over the other. [BD]

Thanks in advance.

BH

[rob_s]

I would skip POF as I have seen several fail, heard from the owners that they got resistant CS afterwards, and have seen both Pat Rogers and Jeff Gonzales say that they see a high failure rate.

If I were considering a piston AR today, I would be looking at LRWCi.

[BravoHotel]

Exactly the type of input I'm looking for. Thank you, Rob. Guess next question is does LRWCi offer upper assemblies...time to start googling.

Still interested in hearing from anyone else with input or experience. [pop]

[rob_s]

does LRWCi offer upper assemblies
http://www.lwrci.com/c-11-complete-uppers.aspx

[BravoHotel]

Thanks, Rob. Wow there is definitely a premium for their uppers at $1800-2,000. That's a lot of coin for just an upper.

[Hatter]

I run an LMT MRP 16 piston setup. The MRP is a little heavy but you may be able to find an upper that is a standard non-mono. Overall LMT makes great stuff and I've been extremely happy with my rifle.

http://www.lewismachine.net/

I'm also looking at a build with an Adam Arms piston kit but this will be completed in 2012.

[Paulo_Santos]

I would skip POF as I have seen several fail, heard from the owners that they got resistant CS afterwards, and have seen both Pat Rogers and Jeff Gonzales say that they see a high failure rate.

If I were considering a piston AR today, I would be looking at LRWCi.

Not only that, but I heard there were some internal problems at POF and they may be splitting up.

I'm a fan and owner of an LMT and I think it is one of the better systems available because of the simplicity of their piston system. And if you decide you don't like it, just swap out the Piston barrel for a DI barrel. Curiosity got me also. LOL.

[rob_s]

if you decide you don't like it, just swap out the Piston barrel for a DI barrel.

That is an excellent point, and might sway me towards an LMT if someone was forcing me to buy a piston gun.

[BravoHotel]

Thanks, Hatter. I'll look into LMT's offerings as well. I wasn't aware they did piston guns.

P.s. Great goat sticker. I'm a goat hoarder myself.

[BravoHotel]

Paulo -

Good point you have there. I'm looking to put the new piston upper on an old and built DPMS lower I have laying around. Just to see what I think of the piston system. Knowing me, if I like it I will likely do a full "gucci" build down the road.

Glad to hear you are liking your LMT setup as well. Along with Hatter's recommendation I'll be checking LMT out.

[BravoHotel]

So...

I'm always a fan of smooth free float handguards and was hoping to be able to do this on a piston setup. Something similar to the VTAC (or Samson,etc) where you can add 1 or 2 small rail panels where necessary. Not seeing anything similar to this on any of the LMT or LWRCi guns.

Anyone know of such an option?

[Paulo_Santos]

So...

I'm always a fan of smooth free float handguards and was hoping to be able to do this on a piston setup. Something similar to the VTAC (or Samson,etc) where you can add 1 or 2 small rail panels where necessary. Not seeing anything similar to this on any of the LMT or LWRCi guns.

Anyone know of such an option?

I believe Rainier Arms has one of those using the Mega Arms Monolithic upper and the AA Piston System. But if you are looking to use one of the smooth handguards, like the Samson, they will work with most Piston Conversions.

[Paulo_Santos]

I forgot to mention about the LMT. You can get an upper for about $1400-$1500 and a complete rifle for under $2K. A Full Piston Conversion kit is around $750. If you decide you don't like the piston, you can sell the piston conversion and recoup most of your money. The LMT DI barrel conversions cost $375 for the Chrome lined barrels and $450 ish for the SS barrel. The part that costs a lot of money for the LMT Piston System is the 1-piece Bolt Carrier ($200+).

[BravoHotel]

I forgot to mention about the LMT. You can get an upper for about $1400-$1500 and a complete rifle for under $2K. A Full Piston Conversion kit is around $750. If you decide you don't like the piston, you can sell the piston conversion and recoup most of your money. The LMT DI barrel conversions cost $375 for the Chrome lined barrels and $450 ish for the SS barrel. The part that costs a lot of money for the LMT Piston System is the 1-piece Bolt Carrier ($200+).

That's a great point. Unfortunately I don't have a DI upper lying around that I'd be willing to convert. I wonder if it's financially a better move to maybe buy a Bravo Co DI upper and then the piston conversion kit? I know cost wise that puts you in the same realm as the complete piston upper from LMT for example but at least you could later turn around and sell of the piston conversion kit if I find it's not my cup of tea.

Well...something else to consider completely. Who's piston conversion kits are receiving good feedback and the WEVO approval?

[BravoHotel]

Depending on the feedback that anyone has about the Adam Arms piston kits...this upper is tempting. I like the midlength gas system, Samson handguard and the price. Only thing I would likely do is swap out the muzzle break for the new RMC I recently ordered.

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2783

[John Hwang]

We sell POF, Adams Arms, LMT & LWRCi. We used to carry PWS but no longer do. PWS initial's design led to many failures that I've encountered first hand and reports of failures from several customers. Their new design is supposed to be much better but I haven't had much personal experience with them as we don't readily stock them. Adams Arms is a great value but they are better known for kits rather than complete uppers but that is slowly starting to change. We see very little report of problems with these systems and customers are generally very satisfied with their purchase. POF offers many features for its high sticker price (lots of upgrades and features for the price point). We move a lot of POF uppers/rifles and haven't noticed any abnormal amount of product returns due to defect. I too have heard second hand about issues in class but once again, nothing first hand so I don't want to speculate. Even though I don't have a lot of trigger time behind an LMT, I am familiar with their company and I know they make high end gear and wouldn't hesitate to buy one. LWRCi is more expensive then the rest and we just started carrying their line so the verdict is still out.

One store owners perspective.

[BravoHotel]

John -

Great insight, thank you. After doing a little research today I would have to say I'm between the AA and the LMT. I know you said that AA is a great "value" but any opinion on if the LMT is worth the price difference? I guess what I'm trying to say is...what would make you lean towards the LMT over the AA?

[Hmac]

Not an upper, but the Huldra Arms rifles (Adams Arms uppers with some modifications) are impressive. I haven't shot one, only handled a couple, but I just saw three of them run in a 2000 round carbine course without a hiccup. No cleaning, not sure if they lubed or not but I don't think so.

http://www.huldraarms.com/

If you're interested in a piston gun, I think these are worth a look.

[BravoHotel]

Thanks, Hmac I'll check them out as well. Definitely curious how they "tweaked" the AA upper for their setup. At this time I'm leaning towards just doing an upper but always like to know my options.

[BravoHotel]

Okay, so quick research and I'm surprised to see they are sold exclusively by Fleet Farm. I'm mean the specs are on par with the common "upper end" builds with melonititing, 1:7 barrel twists, etc etc but their price points are ridiculously low. The one thing that does intrigue me is that they melonited certain parts of the Adams Arms piston system for "increased durability."

Any reviews on these guys? WEVO has spoiled me to the extent that I normally stick to certain brands so color me skeptical. Sorry but as we've all heard, "buy once cry once."

Need to add this as I just found this on their website:
"The Huldra Mark IV series of rifles is manufactured for us by Adams Arms, and the centerpiece of our rifle is Adams Arms proprietary piston system."

http://www.huldraarms.com/faq/

So why would AA compete with themselves and where are they cutting corners to allow the Huldra rifles to be sold at a reduced price?

[Gator]

What about the Barrett piston system? Anyone with info or experience with it?
I saw it on a thread in another site, it seemed like a sound and non-complicated system.

[Hmac]

Thanks, Hmac I'll check them out as well. Definitely curious how they "tweaked" the AA upper for their setup. At this time I'm leaning towards just doing an upper but always like to know my options.

I wish I could explain it to you, but I don't know all the details. I mean, they've been explained to me a couple of time over the last few months, but I don't think I was fully engaged. One of the guys I was shooting with in that Tricon course (that finished today) was Stewart Mills III (Mills family owns Mills Fleet Farm - highly respected around here). He's the one shooting a Huldra in the splash photos on their website. He initiated the whole Huldra project . I suspect that if you click "contact us", Stewart will be the one you end up corresponding with. In fact, I'll bet he'd be happy to talk with you on the phone.

My impression of the quality of the gun is formed by my (inexpert) observation of its construction, but more to the point that the other two guys shooting Huldras at this course over the last three days are a couple of highly respected LEOs (different local agencies) and well-known (around here) firearms instructors, one of whom was the sponsor of this Tricon course here. I know both of them and I give substantial credence to their opinions about firearms. One of them was top scorer at this 15 shooter course (only two shooters passed this course), and made Marksman.

[BravoHotel]

Interesting. May have to shoot them an email and see wha they say. I see they do offer two different uppers but not quite how I'd build it. I'd like something more like the Sampson handguard on it. May have to inquire about that but then at that point you're getting close to the AA uppers offered by Rainier.

Decisions decisions.

PM sent your way about the Tricon.

[BravoHotel]

Appears Chris Costa is a fan of the LWRCi piston gun. Is that supposed to tempt me to spend more? [BD]

[CarlosDJackal]

FWIW, I own 4 LWRCI uppers (8.5" PSD, 10.5" M6A1, 12.7" M6A3 and a 14.7 w/PA FH M6A2) and 1 complete rifle (a 16" M6-SL). I have no problem trusting my life to these rifles and pretty much shoot them exclusively. My oldest LWRC product is the 10.5" M6A1 that I have run more than 14,000 rounds through over the years and it's still going and just as accurate.

[tac40]

Having used both the POF and LWRCi, my personal experience, POF was sent back to factory after running approximately 500 rds, BCG and piston issues, this was a first generation build by POF. The LWRCi was a conversion unit, originally a LMT DI upper. The LWRCi ran well with approximately 1k rds through it. If I were to pick one piston upper between just those two, I like the LWRCi, the piston system seemed more accomodating for other brand rails, whereas POF is BIG.
I sold off the uppers to other users who since reported no major issues.

[BravoHotel]

Carlos & Tac40 -

Thanks for your input gents. Although the price of the LWRCi induces a flinch I'm definitely considering it. At this point I guess I need to do enough research to try and justify the price difference between the AA upper with the smooth Samson handgaurd which I like and and LWRCi offerings.

Would like to hear from anyone that may have shot both piston systems at some point.

[John Hwang]

Okay, so quick research and I'm surprised to see they are sold exclusively by Fleet Farm. I'm mean the specs are on par with the common "upper end" builds with melonititing, 1:7 barrel twists, etc etc but their price points are ridiculously low. The one thing that does intrigue me is that they melonited certain parts of the Adams Arms piston system for "increased durability."

Any reviews on these guys? WEVO has spoiled me to the extent that I normally stick to certain brands so color me skeptical. Sorry but as we've all heard, "buy once cry once."

Need to add this as I just found this on their website:
"The Huldra Mark IV series of rifles is manufactured for us by Adams Arms, and the centerpiece of our rifle is Adams Arms proprietary piston system."

http://www.huldraarms.com/faq/

So why would AA compete with themselves and where are they cutting corners to allow the Huldra rifles to be sold at a reduced price?



From what I understand, AA isn't cutting any corners for Hudra. Actually, it's the exact same upper but with Hudra's name engraved on it. Since it's an OEM project, Hudra does not have to comply with AA pricing guidelines.

What ever choice you choose, let us know if we can help. We'll be glad to beat prices for you too. :)

[BravoHotel]

Appreciate it John. Your company has always been stellar.

P.s. looking forward to trying the RMC I ordered.

[eldogg]

i picked up an AA upper from Rainier Arms. i only have about 2 k down the pipe., not much by some standards. no problems. i also picked up an AA kit and built a 7.62x39 ar. the only difference is i have some
wear in the upper where the cam pin rotates in the kit build. i am not the only one who has had this problem. on the AA forum, someone else has this problem too, but no response from AA. the 7.62, i really enjoy shooting,
the 556, i think i like the DI's better.

[BravoHotel]

Thanks for the first hand feedback, eldogg. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. What changes have you noticed in the 556 that makes you prefer the DI 556 over the piston version? I've never been convinced that piston is the answer (as I'm still not sure if there's even a problem with DI) but curiosity of all these different piston systems makes me want to try one.

[eldogg]

this is just my beliefs useing the AA upper, no Scientific methods. i just shoot paper and steel today, so it's not a duty rifle. i got an AA assembled upper year or so ago, it's a 1/9 twist mid gas. the piston system operates like AA claims, no more no less. there is a diffeence in "felt" recoil on the 556, to me it's more of a push. my biggest gripe is the choice of hand guards they used. it came with Sampson Star's, and they make the front end heavy and off balance to me. i have a CTR stock on it. i would say it weighs in at 7 3/4 lbs. up. the reason i haven't changed them out is 2 fold. one is that they used some kind of roll pin to hold the gas block that i don't want to scew with. two, is there was a limited brands of hand guards that you could use at that time and they all cost major bucks.
i have had 1 MAJOR fail. AA uses an e-clip to hold the plunger into the gas plug. some how some way it came off rendering the rifle in-op.
would i buy another one, i'm not sure.

the 7.62x39 ar was more of an i'm bored project. AA did not recomend useing this caliber. it took some twiking and now runs great. ammo is cheap and when you hit steel with this, you know it!

[AR-10]

I'm going to chime in on this thread because I recently had a chance to put 500 rounds through a PWS upper that belongs to a friend of mine.

We went shooting and I got to know this upper well, prior to actually shooting this one, I was considering the purchase of one of these uppers but with a 14.5" barrel.

Here is a pic of the MK112 upper, it has a 12.5" barrel and a long-stroke piston system:

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3374/upper.jpg

The upper is unique in that it has removable rails (with the exception of the top rail which encompasses the gas cylinder). If you ever need to remove the lower or side rails, all you need is a snap ring pliers and an allen key.

In this pic you can get a better view of the gas cylinder that houses the piston and op-rod:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3448/cylinder.jpg

Here is a close up of the "gas block":

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6323/gasblock.jpg

Now I've only really spent time with two piston guns, this one and an LWRC which utilizes a short-stroke system with a small tappet that pushes a spring loaded op-rod.

I don't know why, but this PWS upper runs WAY HOTTER than the LWRC, or any direct impingement upper I have ever fired.

Even with gloves on, it was hard to hold the upper near the gas block - if you plan on mounting a VFG this may not even be an issue but I wanted to mention it because it was a little surprising to me.

Now for the internals, here is a pic of the piston which stays attached to the op-rod:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8462/pistono.jpg

Here is a pic of the entire bolt carrier group:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/338/bcgb.jpg

As you can see, the charging handle is captured by the op-rod assembly, which makes it a little difficult to put back into the upper if you're used to conventional bolt carriers.

Of course you can simply take the piston off of the tip of the op-rod should you need to remove the charging handle, but this is just one more step in what should be a simple task.

The good thing about this setup is it will accept any mil-spec bolt, and the carrier has a small, floating weight in the tail, I assume they did this to reduce recoil:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7599/bufferb.jpg

I think if you're interested in piston guns, you really need to find someone who has one and is willing to let you shoot it before you buy anything.

I'm not saying this upper is a POS, but what I am saying is, even after firing 500 rounds through it without a malfunction, I have decided that I wouldn't want one of these for anything but a plinker.

Hope this helps.

[Fixit69]

In all my curiosity I've decided to purchase a piston uppper (complete) to give it a go and see what they're like. I know each camp has it's opinions on DI v Piston but let's leave that out of this. I really don't want this to become a debate. I'm looking at this from a research, trial and error, and experience standpoint.

So, my question -- in shopping around and researching I'm curious from those with experience or fact based insight what manufacturers you would suggest. Looking at Rainier I see they offer:
* Adams Arms
* Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF)
* Primary Weapon Systems (PWS)

Any other manufacturers I should consider? Would appreciate any insight on the different ones and the pros/cons of each system. Anything from the piston system they use to the interchangeability of handguards/rail systems down the road along with parts availability etc.


Basically what should I know or consider before buying one over the other. [BD]

Thanks in advance.

BH


Put an AA in my S&W m&p15t to see if I liked it about three years ago. 7-8000 rounds later, 3 bolt overs(probably dirty gun), no ftf, 2 fte, and 4 double feeds. This is on mostly a F/A lower, 16" barrel.

I'm pleased. But some think it's the Antichrist, some think it's the hot shit.

Sorry, it's not either one. It's just a rifle mod.

[KStang986]

I have 2 LWRCis as my primary guns. They're good. High round count, great reliability. Good accuracy.

Slight wear in my lower receiver extension, posted a picture on LWRCi forums, and the VP told me it was simply finish wear, but there is wear along the bottom of the receiver extension.

I have no reservations about recommending LWRCi, but they are expensive.

[12131]

I have 2 LWRCis as my primary guns. They're good. High round count, great reliability. Good accuracy.

Slight wear in my lower receiver extension, posted a picture on LWRCi forums, and the VP told me it was simply finish wear, but there is wear along the bottom of the receiver extension.

I have no reservations about recommending LWRCi, but they are expensive.

So, it's carrier tilt wear, isn't it? Why would they dismiss it?

[KStang986]

So, it's carrier tilt wear, isn't it? Why would they dismiss it?

Draw your own conclusions. 6,000 rounds.
http://xd6.xanga.com/9d6f8577c0635273736970/b218249647.jpg

[Paulo_Santos]

That is considered finish wear. I had that with my LMT. I've seen some where the extension was getting worn down to the bottom.

[12131]

^^^ Obviously light wear, not extensive as others, but still a wear on the bottom from "carrier tilt", isn't it? Of course, the gun still functions just fine, I'm sure. I know, when I had my POF-415, the carrier tilt wear was much more extensive, but the gun still worked reliably, without issues.

[KStang986]

Well, I only had my RRA to about 1,000 rounds before I sold it, and my current Daniel Defense DI is not past 500 rounds, so I don't have a baseline "control" to compare my LWRC to. Has anyone had a DI which wore similarly?

(sorry for the sidetrack, OP).

[Paulo_Santos]

Well, I only had my RRA to about 1,000 rounds before I sold it, and my current Daniel Defense DI is not past 500 rounds, so I don't have a baseline "control" to compare my LWRC to. Has anyone had a DI which wore similarly?

(sorry for the sidetrack, OP).

DI doesn't have carrier tilt issues.

[KStang986]

That is considered finish wear. I had that with my LMT. I've seen some where the extension was getting worn down to the bottom.

Was this particular LMT DI?

[12131]

Was this particular LMT DI?
There is no carrier tilt issue with any DI. I'm sure Paulo was talking about his Piston LMT.

[KStang986]

Hmm, in the pictures I've found of high round count DIs, the wear isn't as noticeable as on my LWRC.

LWRC Explained it to me this way:


That is not carrier tilt damage or signs of it. As is clearly visable in the photo is that the black hardcoat anodizing is still intact and no silver aluminum is seen. The grey material which has been removed is the dry film lube doing it's job. Mil-Spec (i.e. government drawing call for the interior of both the upper receiver and the buffer tube to be coated with dry-film lube)...
...

If you look down the interior of the buffer tube you will see that the dry-film lube is wearing throughout the length of the tube in all dirrections, this is perfectly normal as the ass end of the carrier, buffer and spring travel back and forth within the buffer.

This is carrier tilt wear found (Pic borrowed from M4C.net) on a Ruger Rifle... Also note no dry film lube.

http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8572

Sorry, the picture was from 3,000 rounds. 3,000 rounds later, I have not seen the wear get worse. YMMV.

[BravoHotel]

Sorry, was gone for the weekend but I appreciate everyone continuing to chime in with their opinions. That's what makes WEVO so great.

eldogg -
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe I've always over looked it before but I don't recall anyone ever mentioning a change in the recoil when switching to a piston gun. That's interesting to hear. I guess maybe I need to try and find someone around here with one I can shoot to experience first hand.

AR-10 -
Appreciate the detailed review of the PWS you had the chance to shoot.

Fixit -
I think you hit the nail on the head with this :"Sorry, it's not either one. It's just a rifle mod." I agree 100%
Like anyone else with black rifle disease...I'm just looking to try a new mod. Well said.

KStang -
Thanks for the pics. That's what this forum is for...to discuss such issues related to moving to a piston gun. Long as this doesn't turn into a DI v. Piston debate feel free to comment. Finish wear or carrier tilt if you actually wanted to call it that doesn't (or wouldn't) concern me if it was as minimal as what it appears you are experiencing. If I bought a piston gun it would be a hobby gun and just something new for me to toy with so that I can begin to make my own opinions based on my own experiences.

[Paulo_Santos]

It was the LMT Piston. If you get a Piston, I highly recommend getting the POF or PWS Enhanced buffer tube. It has a longer lip on it so the carrier sits on top of the buffer tube and it reduces the carrier tilt even more, but doesn't always totally eliminate it. I dis a review on them here if you do a search.

[fanatic]

I have a complete 5.56 and 7.62x39 piston upper by Black Rifle Arms. Last time I talked to them they said they started a run of their low profile gas blocks (not sure when they will be out) but here's a pic of it:
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/blackriflearmsgps/bralowprofilewithsamsonrail.jpg

Also they have redesigned their carriers to prevent carrier tilt and any metal on metal contact...I have thousands of round through my 5.56 and the tube looks new:
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z349/blackriflearmsgps/boltcarrier.jpg

[BravoHotel]

It was the LMT Piston. If you get a Piston, I highly recommend getting the POF or PWS Enhanced buffer tube. It has a longer lip on it so the carrier sits on top of the buffer tube and it reduces the carrier tilt even more, but doesn't always totally eliminate it. I dis a review on them here if you do a search.

Good to know. Thanks again, Paulo.