PDA

View Full Version : Engraving?



tnronin
8 November 2011, 17:22
Not a long time poster and I'm a major novice on the SBR stuff. I recently received my tax stamp for my AR. I didn't engrave it or anything. I can't remember the form number, but why engrave when you can just use the correct form? Sorry this is brief, I'm on my tablet.

Mitch

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

Hatter
9 November 2011, 05:26
I assume when you say "correct form" you are referring to either a Form 1 or Form 4...

All SBR's need to be engraved regardless of which form is used. If you are building the SBR (assembling the upper and lower once the short barrel is installed) you'll need to fill out a Form 1 - The application to make and register a firearm and the weapon must be engraved with your information (Name/LLC Name, Location). If you purchased the SBR as a complete weapon, from Noveske for example, you'll need to fill out a Form 4 - Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration. This weapon will be engraved by Noveske to meet the requirements.

A good search here will show a lot of threads on engraving...

tnronin
9 November 2011, 16:17
Hatter that is what I don't get. I have the paperwork in and back from the ATF. I did not engrave anything. We gave them the info for the ar15 only. Please don't call BS on me. I can take pics, I'm not a mall ninja, and I'm not trolling. The shop I deal with does these rifles all the time. I guess I need to dig the paperwork out of the pistol grip. I'm nothing special and I don't get why people don't just do what I've done.

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

tnronin
9 November 2011, 16:23
Ok pulled the paperwork. I used a form 1 and listed my rifle as a collectors item. Application made by individual. Like I said our shop doest this all the time.

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

Hatter
9 November 2011, 19:21
HI'm nothing special and I don't get why people don't just do what I've done.

Because it is illegal to possess the NFA item without the paperwork AND the engraving. You can purchase the AR15 receiver and use this to become an SBR. In all honesty the "NFA item" would be the barrel and you do not need the paperwork to purchase this.

If you're not going to bother engraving the weapon, why did you bother obtaining the tax stamp?

tnronin
10 November 2011, 02:25
Huh? Man, typing on a tablet sucks. My response came back too harsh. I was informed, and I guess the ATF agrees that the manufacturing markings are sufficient. I questioned the shop when we did the paperwork. I was skeptical as well quite frankly. But sure as snot it came back approved. Now I realize you are more knowledgeable in these matters BUT it seems to me the ultimate decision on this matter is with the ATF. Initially I was offended by your implication that I was breaking the law. But I realize that sometimes things can be confusing when stated on the internet.

Back to your statement about getting the stamp AND engraving. I didn't because the ATF said I didn't have to (by approving it). Are we just trying to keep the engravers in business or making even MORE unnecessary red tape for us to be tangled in.


Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

Hatter
10 November 2011, 05:21
If you filed a Form 1, you are the manufacturer of the SBR. You were the one that assembled the lower and upper to create the weapon. This means it needs to be engraved with the information that matches the Form 1. This is the law. The paperwork can be submitted, approved and returned with a tax stamp without the ATF's knowledge of any engraving what-so-ever. These two things are COMPLETELY independent of one another and it is your responsibility as a firearm owner to read and understand the NFA rules and regulations.

If you had filed a Form 4, and the manufacturer sold you a complete SBR they would have markings that sufficiently fill this requirement.

I just think you are getting incorrect information from your shop.

Hmac
10 November 2011, 05:53
Just having the Form 1 approved doesn't not automatically make the weapon or the maker in compliance with the law. Whatever the paperwork, that doesn't relieve an SBR "maker" of following the regulation that requires that the maker engrave his name/city/state on the weapon.

Rodman24
10 November 2011, 06:05
Hatter and Hmac's comments are correct. The engraving is necessary. Try Ident Marking Services they do great work. http://www.identmarking.com

todd.k
10 November 2011, 08:11
With a Form 1 you are the "Maker" of an NFA firearm.

27CFR479.102

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer,
or maker of a firearm, must legibly
identify the firearm as follows...

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr479.102.pdf

Hmac
10 November 2011, 08:58
Huh? Man, typing on a tablet sucks. My response came back too harsh. I was informed, and I guess the ATF agrees that the manufacturing markings are sufficient. I questioned the shop when we did the paperwork. I was skeptical as well quite frankly. But sure as snot it came back approved. Now I realize you are more knowledgeable in these matters BUT it seems to me the ultimate decision on this matter is with the ATF. Initially I was offended by your implication that I was breaking the law. But I realize that sometimes things can be confusing when stated on the internet.

Back to your statement about getting the stamp AND engraving. I didn't because the ATF said I didn't have to (by approving it). Are we just trying to keep the engravers in business or making even MORE unnecessary red tape for us to be tangled in.


Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk


Yeh, see, this is erroneous thinking. The ATF says you HAVE to engrave it..it's mandated in the relevant federal regulations under the National Firearms Act. The manufacturer of your rifle would be the company that manufactured the lower receiver and you'll see that they have already engraved (or stamped) their name/city/state, as per the same law. Once that lower is registered as an SBR with the NFA via a Form 1 and tax paid, you now have the option to "make" the SBR. As the "maker", you also have to engrave your name/city/state.

tnronin
11 November 2011, 04:26
Ok so NOW I need to engrave it? Or what now?

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

Hmac
11 November 2011, 05:31
In order to be in compliance with the law, you would need to go back and have the rifle engraved with your name/city/state. The letters need to be larger than 1/16th inch and at least .003 inch deep and can be engraved on the barrel, upper, or lower receiver and visible without any disassembly of the rifle. The two most popular firearms engravers tend to be either Ident Marking in Texax or Orion Arms in Minnesota. For some engraviing locations on the rifle, they may require disassembly - best to call first or at least check our their websites. Some local trophy shops might be able to do it, but be careful about that. One nice thing about Orion or Ident is that they routinely black the letters after engraving.

CarlosDJackal
17 November 2011, 13:44
Ok so NOW I need to engrave it? Or what now?

Sent from my NookColor using Tapatalk

You need to pay attention to what these guys are telling you.

- If YOU registered the receiver as an SBR you should have an ATF FORM 1. This means that YOU are the SBR manufacturer and must engrave it with: (a) The Manufacturer's name (THAT WOULD BE YOU) (b) the City and (c) the State in which the SBR was "manufactured" (THIS WOULD YOU BE YOUR HOME CITY and STATE). The engraving must meet the requirements for height, depth and location on the receiver to be legal. Not doing so would be in violation of the posted regulations.

- If you purchased an already registered receiver (IE: it was registered as an SBR by the manufacturer or someone before you purchased it) then you should have an ATF FORM 4. You will not have to engrave the receiver since the "manufacturer" (whoever that may be) should have already done so.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this but good luck!!

CarlosDJackal
17 November 2011, 13:48
In order to be in compliance with the law, you would need to go back and have the rifle engraved with your name/city/state. The letters need to be larger than 1/16th inch and at least .003 inch deep and can be engraved on the barrel, upper, or lower receiver and visible without any disassembly of the rifle. The two most popular firearms engravers tend to be either Ident Marking in Texax or Orion Arms in Minnesota. For some engraviing locations on the rifle, they may require disassembly - best to call first or at least check our their websites. Some local trophy shops might be able to do it, but be careful about that. One nice thing about Orion or Ident is that they routinely black the letters after engraving.

I have to make a correction here. The ATF came out with a letter that specifically debunked the myth that one can engrave the barrel or the upper receiver OF AND AR-15 to meet the NFA standards. it has to be done on the registered item (IE: lower receiver of an AR-15).

If the upper receiver is the registered item (IE: SCAR), then this would be acceptable but not the barrel (a part that can easily be replaced). Besides, barrels wear out with use so why would you want to spend all that money to engrave your barrel in the first place?

ADDED: +1 On Orion Arms as an engraver. I've used them twice and am getting ready to send them a third receiver.

todd.k
17 November 2011, 16:15
You are correct about the upper, the upper of an AR is not the receiver. You can mark the barrel, only the serial number must be on the receiver.

479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer,
or maker of a firearm, must legibly
identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving...
on the frame or receiver thereof
an individual serial number...

...on the frame, receiver, or barrel
thereof certain additional information...
(i) The model, if such designation has
been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name...

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2009/aprqtr/pdf/27cfr479.102.pdf

Hmac
19 November 2011, 08:25
I have to make a correction here. The ATF came out with a letter that specifically debunked the myth that one can engrave the barrel or the upper receiver OF AND AR-15 to meet the NFA standards. it has to be done on the registered item (IE: lower receiver of an AR-15).

.

Yup.Thanks for the correction. Engraving the barrel is OK, upper receiver not so much. I agree that engraving the barrel of an AR imposes fleixibility limitations that would make that a puzzling choice of location, IMHO.

todd.k
21 November 2011, 08:15
I agree that engraving the barrel of an AR imposes fleixibility limitations that would make that a puzzling choice of location, IMHO.

Not if you own a set of hand stamps and have a DIY attitude. Easy and free to mark as many barrels as you want. Best option for everyone, No but it's a good option for some.

HawkedMatter
23 February 2012, 02:48
So don't mean to hijack the thread but have a related question.

If I plan on making an SBR by attaching a stock onto the existing buffer tube of an AR-type pistol, would I be right in assuming I need to fill out the Form 1 and do the engraving on the lower?

Hatter
23 February 2012, 05:42
Yuup. Because you can configure the short barreled upper as a pistol, this is common practice to assemble a pistol AR while waiting for the returned Form 1 paperwork.

knedrgr
2 September 2012, 22:02
^ IIRC, this is only possible if the original receiver wasn't registered as a rifle. Turning a rifle into a pistol is a no-no in the ATF's eyes. But one can turn a pistol into a rifle w/o annoy issues.

markm
4 September 2012, 07:27
I've only seen one SBR that actually had engraving. Almost no one I know does it. Form 1ing a Silencer or something without engraving would be a WHOLE different ball game, Jack. An SBR has traceability with the actual serial number, original manufacturor, etc.