PDA

View Full Version : AR vs AK: Practical Accuracy



MilitaryArms
5 December 2011, 07:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98LszJAlTE

Paulo_Santos
5 December 2011, 08:28
Very nice. Is there a way you can do the same test but with red dots or optics on them? Just to rule out the iron sights.

MilitaryArms
5 December 2011, 21:13
In my experience the results are about the same, the AR edges out the AK. With a RDS I don't see much of an improvement in group sizes, but then I'm quite comfortable with iron sights.

I will be doing a test of a standard AK74, then taking the same AK and having a Teludyne Straight Jacket put on it and shooting it again for groups to see just how much of an accuracy improvement there is. I'm working to build a DMR AK74 capable of 1" groups at 100 yards with commercial ammo.

Paulo_Santos
6 December 2011, 07:34
Looking forward to it.

skd_tactical
6 December 2011, 16:03
Nice job.
I feel that the different Iron sights are one of the great delineating factors of the two rifles. I really like the AR15/M4 sights vs the AK's. I have terrible trouble shooting an AK accurately past the 150M range. Of course it could all come down to what I know and was trained on.

SOS

2ATA
7 December 2011, 05:35
Found the answer myself. Thanks.

d90king
7 December 2011, 07:06
My results have been very different than yours Military Arms. By utilizing an Aimpoint T1 I was able to shrink groups nearly in half. Granted it was with 7.62X39 but I would think with the "pill" your results might be even more dramatic.

These two groups were shot using an Arsenal SA M7 which is a very accurate Bulgarian milled AK using Golden Tiger ammo. I have found Gloden Tiger to be the most accurate 7.62X39 ammo available at any price. I tried to do one group (ten rounds) above dot and one below (ten rounds) using the top/bottom edge of the dot. I shoved a few rounds high but I'm not a very good group shooter. I do it out of necessity from time to time but I am certainly not a "precision" shooter... I believe with the right guy behind the gun even better results could be had and I'm certain sub 2" groups with an AK would be the norm IF it is a quality AK. All rounds were shot using my range bag and nothing more.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1227.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1228.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1229.jpg

I'm not sure what your formal training background is but I do understand it is limited (I know you spent a few minutes with Ken on the range one day), but I think its important that you stay in your lane when answering questions that might be out of your swim lane. If you really wanted to do an accuracy test you should be eliminating as much human interference as possible. You need to really lock the guns down and let the data speak for its self.

How often do you shoot for groups? What rifle and glass do you use? What ammo? What are some of your best results out of various platforms. Most would prefer just an honest answer instead of speaking in absolutes that using a RDS wouldn't make a difference because you are comfortable with irons. It's almost starting to appear that you are spamming all of the forums out there for your youtube partnership.

You seem like a great guy (and I genuinely mean it) and all but its simply not cool when you are using your opinions as fact without hard data to back up your opinions...

MilitaryArms
7 December 2011, 10:20
I don't think I'm swimming out of my lane at all. I find your post to be unnecessarily hostile. If you disagree with my opinions, fine. I accept that and encourage it. If you listen to what I say, it is VERY clear I'm sharing my opinions and I make no statements of fact.

This forum is for posting reviews. Yes, I share my videos on various boards and the vast majority appreciate the gesture and encourage me to do so. Very rarely do I encounter someone such as yourself that feels the need to attack me for doing so.

If the consensus is that my videos and opinions aren't welcome here, I will gladly leave.

Paulo_Santos
7 December 2011, 11:28
My results have been very different than yours Military Arms. By utilizing an Aimpoint T1 I was able to shrink groups nearly in half. Granted it was with 7.62X39 but I would think with the "pill" your results might be even more dramatic.

These two groups were shot using an Arsenal SA M7 which is a very accurate Bulgarian milled AK using Golden Tiger ammo. I have found Gloden Tiger to be the most accurate 7.62X39 ammo available at any price. I tried to do one group (ten rounds) above dot and one below (ten rounds) using the top/bottom edge of the dot. I shoved a few rounds high but I'm not a very good group shooter. I do it out of necessity from time to time but I am certainly not a "precision" shooter... I believe with the right guy behind the gun even better results could be had and I'm certain sub 2" groups with an AK would be the norm IF it is a quality AK. All rounds were shot using my range bag and nothing more.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1227.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1228.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/d90king/DSCN1229.jpg

I'm not sure what your formal training background is but I do understand it is limited (I know you spent a few minutes with Ken on the range one day), but I think its important that you stay in your lane when answering questions that might be out of your swim lane. If you really wanted to do an accuracy test you should be eliminating as much human interference as possible. You need to really lock the guns down and let the data speak for its self.

How often do you shoot for groups? What rifle and glass do you use? What ammo? What are some of your best results out of various platforms. Most would prefer just an honest answer instead of speaking in absolutes that using a RDS wouldn't make a difference because you are comfortable with irons. It's almost starting to appear that you are spamming all of the forums out there for your youtube partnership.

You seem like a great guy (and I genuinely mean it) and all but its simply not cool when you are using your opinions as fact without hard data to back up your opinions...

I think you are being a little harsh. He did post that this was for PRACTICAL ACCURACY, so I don't know if using bench rests and other tools would be all that PRACTICAL. We are all here to share info. If your experience has shown different, that is what we want to hear. Thank you for understanding.

d90king
8 December 2011, 03:29
I think you are being a little harsh. He did post that this was for PRACTICAL ACCURACY, so I don't know if using bench rests and other tools would be all that PRACTICAL. We are all here to share info. If your experience has shown different, that is what we want to hear. Thank you for understanding.

Fair enough. I wasnt trying to be harsh at all. Like I said, I think he is a nice guy with good intentions. I was just struck by his response that accuracy wouldn't improve because of his confidence with his irons. FWIW, I am not a benchrest shooter at all (I fall asleep shooting groups) I simply used my range bag and got decent results.

d90king
8 December 2011, 03:41
I don't think I'm swimming out of my lane at all. I find your post to be unnecessarily hostile. If you disagree with my opinions, fine. I accept that and encourage it. If you listen to what I say, it is VERY clear I'm sharing my opinions and I make no statements of fact.

This forum is for posting reviews. Yes, I share my videos on various boards and the vast majority appreciate the gesture and encourage me to do so. Very rarely do I encounter someone such as yourself that feels the need to attack me for doing so.

If the consensus is that my videos and opinions aren't welcome here, I will gladly leave.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be harsh and am sorry if thats how the post came across. My only issue is that at times people watch a video and take it as fact and your response when asked if a RDS would help with accuracy struck me as presumptive because of your confidence with irons. Thats all. For the record I generally enjoy your videos and think you do a nice job overall (accept for the lack of eye pro) ...

Once again my apologizes if you felt I was harsh with my comments.

Paulo_Santos
8 December 2011, 05:22
Fair enough. I wasnt trying to be harsh at all. Like I said, I think he is a nice guy with good intentions. I was just struck by his response that accuracy wouldn't improve because of his confidence with his irons. FWIW, I am not a benchrest shooter at all (I fall asleep shooting groups) I simply used my range bag and got decent results.

I have co-workers that shoot better with irons that they do with the EOTech. I stopped trying to figure out why they can shoot better with irons, especially when they are really good shooters.

d90king
8 December 2011, 17:29
I have co-workers that shoot better with irons that they do with the EOTech. I stopped trying to figure out why they can shoot better with irons, especially when they are really good shooters.


I could see shooting AR irons wel especially A2'sl... You give up speed but not necassarilly a lot off accuracy until you go long where magnification certainly helps... With an AK the rear leaf and radious make it a bit more challenging IMHO. That said, inside a hundred yds, it's slow but good hits are obtainable.

When talking about practical accuracy and speed , the T1 on an ULtimak is hard to beat IMHO ...

Sidebar: aren't you a LMT MWS shooter? Searched the site and can't find anything on them... Just picked one up and thought I could find some data on here.... Maybe my search fu is weak.

Paulo_Santos
8 December 2011, 18:54
I could see shooting AR irons wel especially A2'sl... You give up speed but not necassarilly a lot off accuracy until you go long where magnification certainly helps... With an AK the rear leaf and radious make it a bit more challenging IMHO. That said, inside a hundred yds, it's slow but good hits are obtainable.

When talking about practical accuracy and speed , the T1 on an ULtimak is hard to beat IMHO ...

Sidebar: aren't you a LMT MWS shooter? Searched the site and can't find anything on them... Just picked one up and thought I could find some data on here.... Maybe my search fu is weak.

I think it is a Marine Corps thing as both of the guys that shoot better with irons were both Marines. LOL.

I'm an LMT Piston Shooter. SnipersHide has a ton of MWS shooters. If I ever got a .308, it would definitely be an MWS. I'm sold on the MRP Platform.

MilitaryArms
8 December 2011, 19:46
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be harsh and am sorry if thats how the post came across. My only issue is that at times people watch a video and take it as fact and your response when asked if a RDS would help with accuracy struck me as presumptive because of your confidence with irons. Thats all. For the record I generally enjoy your videos and think you do a nice job overall (accept for the lack of eye pro) ...

Once again my apologizes if you felt I was harsh with my comments.

My comments weren't mean to imply that everyone shoots with irons as well as they do with a RDS, I thought my use of "I" was enough to make it clear I was talking about my experience and not to be taken as a general statement about RDS's and other shooters capabilities. Believe me, I've shot the rifles extensively with RDS sights and I see no significant gain in accuracy in doing so. Magnified optics, that's a different story. If you think about it, it's not that much of a stretch for someone experienced with iron sights and with good eye sight. A non-magnified RDS has a dot that's usually between 4 MOA and 1 MOA, depending on who makes it. I'm a fan of Aimpoint and my T1 Micro has a 3.4 MOA dot. Depending on brightness setting the dot can be a little bigger than 3.4 MOA. When I co-witness the T-1's dot on my M4 with its front sight, the dot is only slightly narrower than the front sight post which it sits on top of.

The only thing that RDS does is take the alignment of the front and rear sight out of the equation. Since the human eye naturally centers things and since I've shot both rifles quite a bit with irons with good results, I don't see much of a difference in the group sizes with and without a RDS. I have friends that can't stand RDS's for target shooting when going for groups. So I thought your comment was a bit odd, much like you thought mine was odd. That's how disagreements happen. :)

As for the AK's sights, they don't appeal to western shooters because we like peeps. For what AK sights are designed, close to medium range combat, they actually make sense and work quite well. For precision work, like most westerners, I like a peep too. That's why if you look closely in the video, you'll notice I have a Krebs peep on the rifle.

I rarely wear eye pro when shooting rifles for accuracy because it interferes with my ability to properly focus, which I've explained in other videos. I have good vision and don't require glasses, so glasses actually cause me to have eye strain. I've never been able to wear sun glasses as they jack with my eyes and cause headaches, especially when I'm focusing intently on something.

I'm glad we can put this behind us, and thanks for taking the time to respond.