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csmith
23 December 2011, 15:23
Hello all. As the post count shows I'm new to the forum, however I've been "ghosting" a few diffferent forums to see which were worth becoming a member of. This one has come across as where the most mature, and hands down knowledgable, crowd can be found. A little background on me, my job consists of maintaining/teaching firearms for the USAF. I'm not new to the AR platform, however Google has taught me quite a bit in the past two weeks about these weapons (variations, etc.). That being stated, I've had more than enough time to form a bias on what M4/AR's "should" be. When I first set out to build my own I was basically going for a knock off of what we carry every day. I've come to find while what we have does work, there is some conflicting information out there that I'd like to clear up before I carry on with my build.

1.) Buttstocks. There are so many types out there, but is there an actual "improvement" from using these, or are they just minor variations of the GI M-4 stock to be different/aesthetically pleasing? Basically, is purchasing these $100-$200 items a worthwhile investment if you've never used anything but GI?

2.) Gas Tube Length. From what I've read, mid-length systems were created as an improvement over the carbine. They lessened recoil and increased reliability (as well as widened the sight base, which I can agree with). Exactly how unreliable is the carbine system purported to be? Is there a real benefit, or does it come down to what you like to hold/look at?

3.) Nickel-Boron BCG's and Hammers. I've read different things about these. Is it used to forgo lubricating the parts, just to make cleaning easier, neither/both/just snake oil?

4.) Body Position While Shooting. This question has nothing to do with my build, however I've seen it so much and it's very foreign to me. I was going through Stickman's flickr (good stuff in there) and came across this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stickgunner/6118597908/in/photostream). This isn't the first time I've seen a picture of a person shooting like this, but I don't understand the purpose. Can someone elaborate on the benefit to the chicken wing/side grip? Not knocking it, just don't get it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other questions I can come up with, but these'll do for now. Thanks for any help in advance.

Stickman
23 December 2011, 18:03
Sounds like you are CATM, in which case, you will be an asset to the board and those who come here seeking help.

1. The improvement is subjective, if you have ever got into the arms room of STS and used their SOPMOD stocks, you need to see if you like the feel of those. If they are not an improvement in feel to you, you probably won't like any others on the market.

2. Midlength gas systems are an improvement, but not as much as using quality ammo and maintaining your weapon. The feel is slightly different, but not enough where you will write songs about it.

3. Much like the hard chrome carriers, they can make cleaning easier.

4. Thanks, I'm glad you like the pictures. Check out my facebook page as well for more content. That position is not chickenwinging, and its use is only that in specific situations. Its not designed for staying in position for extended periods of time, not is it designed for precision shooting. With your hand out farther, the elbow won't bend enough to chickenwing.

Paulo_Santos
23 December 2011, 18:25
Welcome aboard.

1: The aftermarket stocks like the Vltor Modstocks and the Magpul stocks offer an improved cheekweld and are very comfortable to shoot. Most also have more sling attachment points and battery storage built in. It is a personal preference, but I prefer the aftermarket stocks like the Vltor Clubfoot Modstocks. Very comfortable.

2: Midlength rifles are smoother to shoot, but if gassed properly, it isn't a big deal.

3: Just like Stick wrote, they are easier to clean.

4: There are a lot of new shooting positions and shooting styles. Each one is designed for a different purpose. A lot of these styles come from 3-gun and other action shooting competitions. Some translate very well into the tactical world, and some don't. It really depends on how you shoot and if you are wearing body armor or not.

csmith
24 December 2011, 09:18
I appreciate the answers. I'll KISS comfortably for now, but do intend on expanding to the aftermarket accessories as time/funds will allow.

TehLlama
28 December 2011, 22:25
If it's a buy as you go thing - make sure you invest in good magazines and ammunition up front - costly seeming at first, but much cheaper than troubleshooting problems. KISS on everything else is a solid plan.
If cleaned properly, a simple carbine length gas, phosphated BCG unit will run just fine, and leave you with more money to spend on the three un-sexy parts of the equation (ammo, mags, and training) that make the most difference.

You'll figure out which cheekweld you want to use after test driving a few, but the boring one a rifle will ship with works - unless you find a deal on something like an MOE or a cheap VLTOR MOD/IMOD, then I wouldn't focus on that up front.

skullworks
29 December 2011, 05:17
Another aspect as to the choice of stock: I find that the MilSpec M4 stock latch tends to catch on things (same with the rear A2 sling attachment) - this is hugely improved in the MOE/CTR/STR/etc stocks from Magpul.

But maybe I'm just unique in this respect...

csmith
30 December 2011, 22:16
If it's a buy as you go thing - make sure you invest in good magazines and ammunition up front - costly seeming at first, but much cheaper than troubleshooting problems. KISS on everything else is a solid plan.
If cleaned properly, a simple carbine length gas, phosphated BCG unit will run just fine, and leave you with more money to spend on the three un-sexy parts of the equation (ammo, mags, and training) that make the most difference.

You'll figure out which cheekweld you want to use after test driving a few, but the boring one a rifle will ship with works - unless you find a deal on something like an MOE or a cheap VLTOR MOD/IMOD, then I wouldn't focus on that up front.

For magazines I'm almost set on PMAGs. I'm not much of a fanboy as it pertains to any product/manufacturer, however I happened to get my hands on one a few days back. The design of those beats our GI magazines, hands down. Such a simple fix to an antiquated design, you'd figure we'd be carrying PMAGs in bulk by now. Then again, Magpul isn't the proverbial "lowest bidder". :rolleyes: If there are suggestions to other magazine manufacturers that are similar/better/cheaper, I'm all ears. Like I said in my first post, my knowledge base revolves soley around what Uncle Sugar has deemed necessary to tell me is best.

On a side note, tonight I assembled my Spikes lower. My last step was installation of the pistol grip. I grab my XXL flathead screwdriver to finish this bad boy off..and realize Spikes has given me a torx screw to go into the grip. Are torx screws a common fastener used by "civilian" AR companies, or is this unique to Spikes?

csmith
30 December 2011, 22:29
Another aspect as to the choice of stock: I find that the MilSpec M4 stock latch tends to catch on things (same with the rear A2 sling attachment) - this is hugely improved in the MOE/CTR/STR/etc stocks from Magpul.

But maybe I'm just unique in this respect...

I can't compare the M4 stock to anything else (yet), but I do agree with you on the pitfalls. On my issued rifle I have a 3-point sling, and have removed the sling attachment and the screw since I don't need them.

lamarbrog
30 December 2011, 23:04
1) I like the MagPul MOE, the rubber pad on it makes it easy to lean the rifle in a corner without it slipping. They run about $60. The more expensive stocks have benefits, especially if you use a lot of batteries in your kit, a few offer good storage options for spare batteries. There are some cheek weld benefits, although I don't think the benefit is as great as some folks seem to think. If I'm not using a chest rig, I actually prefer an A2 stock for just shooting... so that tells you a little about my philosophy.

2) I really like Midlength, especially if you go with a railed handguard. (Daniel Defense M4V3 is still the most beautiful AR15 variant I have ever seen.) It has been well established during military trials that the carbine gas system is not as reliable as a rifle gas system, but I have seen no such data with midlength thrown in to the mix. I think midlengths handle a little better, and I can feel a definite reduction in recoil. I'm actually partial to the 20" barrel and rifle gas system for general purposes. I haven't has issues with any of my past or present carbine uppers, though... just personal tastes.

3) I consider them a gimmick. If you lubricate a standard bolt carrier properly, it is incredibly reliable... so just lube your rifle. As far as being "easier to clean"... so? It's not like a standard bolt carrier group is difficult to clean. I can take an M4 that's been rented on a shooting range for three weeks and has had thousands of rounds fired through it in that time (often without being lubed well) and get it clean in 20 or 25 minutes without breaking a sweat.

4) Do what works for you. If you're making hits on your target, and doing so with some degree of speed, that's what matters. The "MagPul side hold" is all the rage, but I find it uncomfortable for the most part... It has a niche, but I consider it the exception and not the rule. Some folks I shoot with don't hold their rifle any other way, and it seems to work for them. Find what feels right for you, and what works.

TripleBravo
30 December 2011, 23:13
csmith,

Are you a right handed long gun shooter? If so, have you ever found your three point sling creating issues as you manipulate the weapon?

Optimus Prime
31 December 2011, 00:22
csmith,

Are you a right handed long gun shooter? If so, have you ever found your three point sling creating issues as you manipulate the weapon?

Speaking for myself, I carried an A2 on a SpecOps Mamba overseas, and while it's a fantastic sling for carrying the rifle around all day, the strap does go right over the bolt catch. It never interfered with the operation, but was a bit of a pain when trying to lock the bolt open manually.

skullworks
31 December 2011, 04:04
Such a simple fix to an antiquated design, you'd figure we'd be carrying PMAGs in bulk by now.
The British MOD bought more than a million EMAGs (http://www.levelpeaks.com/level-peaks-associates-deliver-lightweight-emag-30-round-5-56-nato-polymer-magazines-for-use-by-the-british-army-in-current-sa80-weapons) for use in Afghanistan (to begin with).


Are torx screws a common fastener used by "civilian" AR companies, or is this unique to Spikes?
I bought a German Oberland Arms Black Label 20" (http://www.oberlandarms.de/index.php?category=Waffen&id=OA15_BL&page=details) right before X-mas and it had a T27 screw - of course the hole for the grip screw is metric as well... Germans... ;)

csmith
31 December 2011, 09:57
csmith,

Are you a right handed long gun shooter? If so, have you ever found your three point sling creating issues as you manipulate the weapon?

I am right handed, and as Optimus Prime pointed out the sling does cover the bolt catch from time to time, but no real operational hinderance. To me, the biggest flaw with the 3-point setup is transitioning from strong side to weak side. I always found that while shooting strong side the pressure on my back from the sling was centered, but once I transition to weak side it ends up moreso on my right should blade. I felt unbalanced, which took my concentration away from shooting. My fix was to loosen the sling until it was too much, then tighten it back to that point where it's just bearable. Basically leaves enough slack that the sling isn't in contact with me while shooting, but the barrel of my rifle ends up at my knees when slung. Not optimal, but it gets the job done.

With motorcycles the mantra is "Dress for the fall, not the ride". I guess for me this is "Equip for the shot, not the carry".

Eric
31 December 2011, 10:31
On a side note, tonight I assembled my Spikes lower. My last step was installation of the pistol grip. I grab my XXL flathead screwdriver to finish this bad boy off..and realize Spikes has given me a torx screw to go into the grip. Are torx screws a common fastener used by "civilian" AR companies, or is this unique to Spikes?
Torx screws are not common. Socket head cap screws are. Not a big deal if you're in the shop or at home with the required tools handy, but a PITA if you're away and expect the proper slotted screw to be in place.

lamarbrog
31 December 2011, 19:55
Haven't seen a Torx grip screw before... but I don't usually check grip screws.

I see mostly slots, and a fair number of hex keys. I'd not be opposed to a Torx, I'm a big fan of that system, though.

TehLlama
3 January 2012, 20:24
I've seen one, but preference is definitely for a phillips or a flathead.