Latest issue of RECOIL magazine had an interesting statement regarding the MP7A1....

[landshark]

I like RECOIL and have gotten all of their publications so far, but I have to take umbrage with this statement. To make the assumption that civilians should not be allowed to own a piece of military hardware (within reason, even I don't think civilians don't need gear like a Mk.19) just because they have no "sporting" application seems very closed minded.

Credit, where credit is due, I stole this from a post brought to my attention by one the pages I follow on Facebook.

Link to Discussion (https://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/360458947366646)

Reed Knight III even chimed in on this one.

I bring it here to pose the question, do you think that just because a company makes a weapon deemed "For Mil/LEO use only" that it should completely wright off its availability to the civilian market?

There was a time when the FN P90 and Five-Seven pistol were said to be military only weapons, but FN eventually saw fit to allow its civilian markets to get them.

By the way, I am sorry if this is in the wrong section, I had debated putting this here or the NFA/Special Weapons section and chose here in the end. I apologize in advance for any wrong doings

[Pork Chop]

I concur. I love Recoil mag, but have to disagree with their statement.


Sent using TapaTalk app.

[Optimus Prime]

I know I'm done with them unless that editor gets fired. I liked the look and the layout, but them not doing hard-copy subscriptions was weird, and this is kind of like the straw bale that smashed the camel's back to me. Spouting anti-gun rhetoric at me is not what I want to read in a gun rag.

[Stickman]

Its funny how the firearm community can't get along with each other. While Jerry Tsai obviously wrote something which the vast majority of "us" (meaning this board and most AR15 owners) don't agree with, it doesn't change that the larger population of firearm owners probably agrees with him.

Take the NRA for instance, do they represent the majority of AR15 owners? I would say no, they lend themselves towards the much more popular hunter and similar firearm owners. Does that make the NRA a "bad" or useless organization? Some people will say yes, and have pulled their membership because of the NRA views. I'll dissent, and say that without the NRA we most likely would have lost our 2nd Amendment rights a long time ago.

I feel it is very easy to jump on the internet with pitchfork in hand, and foam at the mouth while screaming for blood and for Jerry Tsai to be burned at the stake of his ISP or printing press. In doing so, I think we overlook the 99.99% of what the magazine does, as well as the interest and support this new magazine gains in new firearm owners.

I have no doubt my wife and friends don't appreciate everything I do or say, thankfully they look at me as a larger picture than just some of my dumb comments. I'll look at Jerry Tsai in the same way at this point, a good guy who made a dumb comment.

[landshark]

Stick, you are absolutely right. I was never condemning the magazine as a whole, just the statement made. It seems to me that the guys over at RECOIL new to the whole firearms industry, but that's just my take on it. Its not like there has never been a sensational comment made by self-labeled "pro-gun" supporters. For what its worth I will still be buying their rag and enjoying it as well, with just maybe a small grain of salt.

[Paulo_Santos]

I don't see anything wrong with what was written. I think the wording could have been better, and he should have said that the truth is that the caliber is useless for civilian use, not that civilians aren't worthy of it

Honestly, I have no desire to go out and buy anything with that caliber. I wouldn't even want it for LE use.

[landshark]

Yeah, but the same argument could be made for the 5.7x28mm. In the end, you're right Paulo, it was poorly worded. If I'm the one sitting down and writing up that article I would have gone along the lines that, while it is a shame that the civilian market is unable to get their hands on it, the reasoning behind it is sound.

I wonder what they will do from here forward. RECOIL made a statement on the FB post I linked in the OP, but it seemed to do little to clam the hate heading their way. Predator Intelligence had a great comment on it: "Oh, how quickly they eat their own...."

[Stickman]

I wonder what they will do from here forward. RECOIL made a statement on the FB post I linked in the OP, but it seemed to do little to clam the hate heading their way. Predator Intelligence had a great comment on it: "Oh, how quickly they eat their own...."


They will have to ride it out, not much else to do at this point. When you read the article, that portion doesn't fit, and is almost like an afterthought.

[csmith]

Take the NRA for instance, do they represent the majority of AR15 owners? I would say no, they lend themselves towards the much more popular hunter and similar firearm owners. Does that make the NRA a "bad" or useless organization? Some people will say yes, and have pulled their membership because of the NRA views. I'll dissent, and say that without the NRA we most likely would have lost our 2nd Amendment rights a long time ago.

Your statement is the reason I never joined an organization like the NRA. Everyone has become so defensive of only those rights (or the aspects of certain rights) that appeal/apply to them that it makes the theft of rights that much simpler by those who wish to take them. I enjoy weapons that have a "sporting/hunting" application just as much as I enjoy those that do not. Is my right to possess a Remington 700 seriously that much more at risk or that much more inalienable than my right to own an AR-15? Funny, because I thought "they" wanted to make it to where I couldn't own either.

[Stickman]

Everyone has become so defensive of only those rights (or the aspects of certain rights) that appeal/apply to them that it makes the theft of rights that much simpler by those who wish to take them.

I totally agree. All of the gun owners who have now launched a campaign against RECOIL magazine and its advertisers are doing more harm than anything Jerry Tsai could have ever done had he been the anti-gun devil himself.

The words of Patrick Henry come back now, louder and more meaningful than ever. "Let us trust God, and our better judgment to set us right hereafter. United we stand, divided we fall. Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs.”

[Paulo_Santos]

I totally agree. All of the gun owners who have now launched a campaign against RECOIL magazine and its advertisers are doing more harm than anything Jerry Tsai could have ever done had he been the anti-gun devil himself.

The words of Patrick Henry come back now, louder and more meaningful than ever. "Let us trust God, and our better judgment to set us right hereafter. United we stand, divided we fall. Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs.”

I've been seeing that division for years already. Ever since Obama became President I've seen the anti police/police hatred on so many gun forums grow to the point that I am no longer active on the majority of the gun sites that I used to post on. I always thought right wing and police went hand in hand. Apparently I missed something. In tough times like today where our gun rights are being threatened everyday, the last thing we need is the us vs them, or in this case, us vs us mentality. I've read the Facebook Recoil comments and the over the top replies are so embarrassing and just make us gun owners sound psychotic and just adds more fuel to the fire.

[landshark]

RECOIL's response (http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/360875900658284). For what its worth I think that it is a sincere apology. Like I said, I will stop reading their mag, this was just a big SNAFU and the part of one person.

[Stickman]

RECOIL's response (http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/360875900658284). For what its worth I think that it is a sincere apology. Like I said, I will stop reading their mag, this was just a big SNAFU and the part of one person.


I was woken up several times this morning from manufacturers calling me about this. They all agreed the comments Jerry made sounded exactly like HK propaganda.

[landshark]

Its interesting to see some of the big names that have dropped their advertising, Silencerco (http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442), ITS Tactical (http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/its-information/the-recoil-magazine-2nd-amendment-controversy/), and now......Magpul Industries Corp. (http://www.facebook.com/magpul/posts/486536121358742)

Also Panteao Productions (No link, found out through an e-mail), Haley Strategic (http://www.facebook.com/HaleyStrategic/posts/407865432613546), and Mega Arms (http://www.facebook.com/MegaArms/posts/513379312012112)

[Pork Chop]

It's a sad deal because I really liked Recoil mag. I'm not gonna miss the $10 newsstand price, though. ;)


Sent using TapaTalk app.

[Paulo_Santos]

OMG, now it is just getting silly. The guy already apologized. I think everyone I getting carried away now. Just let it go already.

[Stickman]

Here is the apology from Jerry Tsai for anyone who missed it.


I’d like to address the comments regarding what I wrote in the MP7A1 article in RECOIL issue 4. First and foremost, I’d like to apologize for any offense that I have caused with the article. With the benefit of hindsight, I now understand the outrage, and I am greatly saddened that it was initiated by my words. Especially since, I am an unwavering supporter of 2nd Amendment Rights. I’ve chosen to spend a significant part of both my personnel and professional life immersed in this enthusiasm, so to have my support of individuals’ rights called into doubt is extremely unfortunate. With that said, I retract what I wrote in the offending paragraph within this article. It should have had been presented with more clarity.

In the article, I stated some information that was passed on to me about why the gun is not available for civilian purchase. By no means did I intend to imply that civilians are not responsible, nor do we lack the judgment to own such weapons, if I believed anything approaching this, clearly I would lead a much different life. I also mentioned in the article that the gun had no sporting purpose. This again, was information passed on to me and reported in the article without the necessary additional context. I believe everything published in RECOIL up to this point (other than this story), demonstrates we clearly understand and completely agree that guns do not need to have a sporting purpose in order for them to be rightfully available to civilians. In retrospect, I should have presented this information in a clearer manner. Although I can understand the manufacturer’s stance on the subject, it doesn’t mean that I agree with it.

Again, I acknowledge the mistakes I made and for them I am truly sorry.

Sincerely,
Jerry Tsai
Editor
RECOIL

[Stickman]

Its interesting to see some of the big names that have dropped their advertising, Silencerco (http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442), ITS Tactical (http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/its-information/the-recoil-magazine-2nd-amendment-controversy/), and now......Magpul Industries Corp. (http://www.facebook.com/magpul/posts/486536121358742)

Also Panteao Productions (No link, found out through an e-mail), Haley Strategic (http://www.facebook.com/HaleyStrategic/posts/407865432613546), and Mega Arms (http://www.facebook.com/MegaArms/posts/513379312012112)


Manufacturers will do what they think needs to be done based on the feedback they receive. RECOIL made a mistake, and it is going to hurt them pretty bad for awhile. I've got no doubt they can make changes and come back again, but its going to be rough for them.

[csmith]

OMG, now it is just getting silly. The guy already apologized. I think everyone I getting carried away now. Just let it go already.

Welcome to America, land of having to take offense to something even though you weren't personally wronged and ensuring everyone knows about it. One of two things happened here. Either he a.) let slip a comment he truly believes and is just trying to CYA, or b.) made a comment he in no way intended to be taken as it was. In either scenario, blowing up a facebook page has zero meaning. If you're that offended, stop purchasing the magazine and move on. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of those people freaking out aren't even regular purchasers of this publication. To take it a step further, how many blow up the facebook pages of those that openly desire nothing less than to end civilian ownership of any firearms? Anyone know someone who got onto John Leguizamo's page when he outright blamed the Aurora theatre shooting on public ownership of guns? Doubtful. The truly anti-gun populace is left alone and quietly chastised, while we eat those that claim to be our own. Simply brilliant.

I take more issue with the companies landshark linked to. If you want to pull your sponsorship, more power to you. It's your capital to do with as you please. To do so in such a dramatic public fashion strikes me as the "Hey, look at me! Did I do good?" attitude of that guy we all work with. In my opinion a more appropriate response would have been to quietly pull your financial backing and left well enough alone. All parties would have known the support wasn't there soon enough, either through lack of advertisements or outright implosion of the publication.

ETA: I do understand those companies have a bottom line to protect, and that factors into the company responses. I'd just like to see matters handled just a bit more like grown ups. Yelling "you big poop head" when you could just remove yourself from the situation doesn't sit well with me.

[Paulo_Santos]

Welcome to America, land of having to take offense to something even though you weren't personally wronged and ensuring everyone knows about it. One of two things happened here. Either he a.) let slip a comment he truly believes and is just trying to CYA, or b.) made a comment he in no way intended to be taken as it was. In either scenario, blowing up a facebook page has zero meaning. If you're that offended, stop purchasing the magazine and move on. I'd be willing to bet a large portion of those people freaking out aren't even regular purchasers of this publication. To take it a step further, how many blow up the facebook pages of those that openly desire nothing less than to end civilian ownership of any firearms? Anyone know someone who got onto John Leguizamo's page when he outright blamed the Aurora theatre shooting on public ownership of guns? Doubtful. The truly anti-gun poulace is left alone and quietly chastised, while we eat those that claim to be our own. Simply brilliant.

I take more issue with the companies landshark linked to. If you want to pull your sponsorship, more power to you. It's your capital to do with as you please. To do so in such a dramatic public fashion strikes me as the "Hey, look at me! Did I do good?" attitude of that guy we all work with. In my opinion a more appropriate response would have been to quietly pull your financial backing and left well enough alone. All parties would have known the support wasn't there soon enough, either through lack of advertisements or outright implosion of the publication.

LOL. Exactly. Those companies are taking advantage of the situation and trying to make themselves look better by separating themselves from RECOIL and trying to win over more customers. In the end, I guess that any publicity is good publicity. I just think it is complete waste of time to get bent out of shape about the comment.

[Stickman]

Here is another way to look at things. When the next issue of RECOIL comes out, the Presidential election will have been decided. We could very well be facing a ban on weapons the likes of which we have never seen, and by no stretch do I think it is over for Obama.

If he made gas prices drop to $2.50 or $2 a gallon before the election through some miracle, I think he would win in a landslide.

[mlosi762]

LOL. Exactly. Those companies are taking advantage of the situation and trying to make themselves look better by separating themselves from RECOIL and trying to win over more customers. In the end, I guess that any publicity is good publicity. I just think it is complete waste of time to get bent out of shape about the comment.

Agreed. People are getting way too pissed off about Jerry's comment. While I disagreed with what he said, it in no way made me want to stop reading the rest of the issue. It was not the first time, nor will it be the last time that have been "offended" by a writer's comments. But guess what? Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion last time I checked. Seems too many people are all about supporting freedom of speech, until they find it personally offensive.

While I respect the companies that have made their decision to pull advertisements from RECOIL, I also thought that the posts on Facebook/Websites of their intention to do so, was simply an effort to "make themselves look good" to their loyal customers/fans. If nobody raised a stink about the MP7A1 article, would any of these companies even brought it up? Doubtful.

As a firearms enthusiast and combat veteran, there's plenty of hardware that I wish I could get my hands on as a civilian, but can't. Would I love to have my own personal M240B? Absolutely! Would I ever have a use for it? No. I am well over the fact that there are many weapons that I could never legally own. Like Stickman pointed out, our 2nd amendment rights could be infringed upon in the future. Be content with what you have and are allowed to own now. Don't get bent on a weapon that the BATFE says you CAN'T have, or somebody who thinks you SHOULDN'T have. Bottom line, HK only makes the select fire version, deal with it.

That's my personal opinion about the matter. Take it as you will.

[Stickman]

Agreed. People are getting way too pissed off about Jerry's comment. While I disagreed with what he said, it in no way made me want to stop reading the rest of the issue. It was not the first time, nor will it be the last time that have been "offended" by a writer's comments. But guess what? Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion last time I checked. Seems too many people are all about supporting freedom of speech, until they find it personally offensive.


I don't think anyone in the AR15 or possibly even the tactical world disagree with what he said, but I would be interested in seeing how many people OUTSIDE of our little slice of heaven would be enraged to the same degree with what is being done. Duck hunters? Deer hunters? Trap & skeet shooters? Bullseye?

I invite anyone with dissenting view to post, no one is going to jump all over you or name call here.

Even if your views don't dissent, and you fall on the side of people who want RECOIL closed down, I'm interested in hearing why you think it should be, or why it would be beneficial to the firearm community.

Thanks.

[TripleBravo]

I posted one comment on a Facebook post over this issue. There, I expressed my intention to resist having a knee-jerk reaction to the whole thing. I imagine there are probably many in our community who have done the same; but because of that, you won't read posts from them countering the rest. Like me, they are sitting back and thinking about it all for a while...my first reaction was simply deep disappointment.

What may hurt Jerry (and RECOIL) the most is the fact that his (apparent) lack of understanding of the law in this case has hurt his credibility. A simple explanation of current law could have completely replaced the comments he made: "The MP7A1 is a select fire weapon produced post 1986. As such, it cannot be sold to any civilian based on current US law." - period. It seems pretty clear to me that instead, Jerry simply regurgitated a line of reasoning that H&K has a reputation for using; and probably conveyed to Jerry when he was conducting interviews to write the article.

It's even more disappointing to read a bunch of "pile-on" comments on Facebook and elsewhere from people about how RECOIL was nothing more than a fashion magazine and a rag to begin with. I'm confident that most of these people probably liked RECOIL, but have now chosen to appear hard-core by hitting it while it's down. I believe that RECOIL was a great concept for a magazine with potential to attract more citizens to our numbers as firearms enthusiasts.

I'm most disappointed by the fact that this whole mess overshadows what this particular issue meant to some people in the industry that I have a great deal of respect for.

[Gray]

Stick,

You never fail to reinforce the good with your thoughtfulness and perspective. I do not post much but read often. Without being obsequious, you are cogent sir.

RFB


I totally agree. All of the gun owners who have now launched a campaign against RECOIL magazine and its advertisers are doing more harm than anything Jerry Tsai could have ever done had he been the anti-gun devil himself.

The words of Patrick Henry come back now, louder and more meaningful than ever. "Let us trust God, and our better judgment to set us right hereafter. United we stand, divided we fall. Let us not split into factions which must destroy that union upon which our existence hangs.”

[mlosi762]

Stick-

A little confused by your last post. Were you inferring few people in the AR-15 world disagree with Jerry? Or would disagree with what I said?

[TangoSauce]

I find it interesting to compare such a comment from the editor and his stance on civilian ownership of the HK to this ad in September's American Rifleman. While I am not a huge Remington fan, they seem to realize that citizens help to keep this land free. I'm sure there's some apples vs oranges here, but I find some irony in it quite frankly.

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k596/TangoSauce/IMG00809-20120911-1833.jpg

[Stickman]

Stick-

A little confused by your last post. Were you inferring few people in the AR-15 world disagree with Jerry? Or would disagree with what I said?

You have my apology if I inferred that I disagreed with you. I should have made them two different comments, but I tend to write the way I talk and put things together at times.

For clarity, I don't think anyone agrees with what Jerry said, or at least not anyone in the AR15 community. If you said the same thing at a hunting trade show, I think you would find more acceptance. I've met plenty of hunters who think the AK and AR15 owners are screwing up their chances of long term gun ownership.

[Stickman]

A- It seems pretty clear to me that instead, Jerry simply regurgitated a line of reasoning that H&K has a reputation for using; and probably conveyed to Jerry when he was conducting interviews to write the article.

B- I believe that RECOIL was a great concept for a magazine with potential to attract more citizens to our numbers as firearms enthusiasts.

C- I'm most disappointed by the fact that this whole mess overshadows what this particular issue meant to some people in the industry that I have a great deal of respect for.

Sorry for the edit on my reply, but its easier for me to reply this way. [BD]

A- Sounds like you are familiar with the HK sale pitch and HK hype. I don't think most other people are. It is well known if you deal with certain HK entities that this is their typical line. "We are HK, we are too special, no one is worthy, we make exceptions only for LE and MIL". This is fostered even more so when the reps are all LE/MIL FAGs (Former Action Guys). No offense to my retired bothers, I'll be one of you too some day.

B- I don't think its over for RECOIL, I think they will work through it. I could be wrong, but I think they still have enough support, They are tied into an audience that is larger than just the ARFCOM/ M4C crowd. I DO think they need to restructure and take care of somethings.

C- This has become an opportunity for some people to try to max exposure by reaping in the failure of others.

I'm writing something official as a reply to something else, I'm not sure it will get published or not, but I'll post it if it does. How is that for vague? [BD]

[Stickman]

I find it interesting to compare such a comment from the editor and his stance on civilian ownership of the HK to this ad in September's American Rifleman. While I am not a huge Remington fan, they seem to realize that citizens help to keep this land free. I'm sure there's some apples vs oranges here, but I find some irony in it quite frankly.



I don't see it that way when they make it clear it is a sporting weapon. I see a cool title, covered by a plausible line of defense in case they are attacked for it.

[TangoSauce]

That's where the apples vs oranges comes to play, but I still find the overall perspective between the two to be coming at the overarching debate from quite different angles. Again, if we go back to some of the comments made earlier in the thread, you can argue that you're pro 2A and still support an AWB. I see nothing in the Constitution limiting the citizens rights to defend themselves, their family, or this country. I will no longer support RECOIL with that editor. Perhaps he misspoke, and that happens. However, in his apology statement he tried to place the blame on HK instead of manning up. If he would have stopped after the first paragraph, I could be more on board with your guys sentiments.

[Paulo_Santos]

I will no longer support RECOIL with that editor. Perhaps he misspoke, and that happens. However, in his apology statement he tried to place the blame on HK instead of manning up. If he would have stopped after the first paragraph, I could be more on board with your guys sentiments.

I don't think you are understanding his apology. He is just being honest. He wrote exactly what HK told him and at the time when he wrote it, he didn't realize how many people were going to be offended. Which echoes what Stick was saying about HK.

Imagine you are writing an article and the company/manufacturer tells you something and you write it. You later realize that what you wrote just offended the majority of your audience. That's what happened here.

[TangoSauce]

I do not see him attributing those comments to HK until the slimy hands line. It reads to me that he is agreeing with them, and that he is trying to use the regurgitation of their talking points that he used to write the article as his scapegoat. Perhaps I am mistaken of his intent in the article, but I still believe that even if he was knowingly writing what HK's perspective is on the MP7A1 then he should have voiced his disagreement. Nonetheless, RECOIL has praised HK since issue 1. I guess I'm skeptical of his intent based on how I've interpreted the article.

[mlosi762]

You have my apology if I inferred that I disagreed with you. I should have made them two different comments, but I tend to write the way I talk and put things together at times.

For clarity, I don't think anyone agrees with what Jerry said, or at least not anyone in the AR15 community. If you said the same thing at a hunting trade show, I think you would find more acceptance. I've met plenty of hunters who think the AK and AR15 owners are screwing up their chances of long term gun ownership.

Stick,

No need to apologize. I figured that was what you were saying, just confused at first.

And I agree, a different response would most likely have come from the hunting crowd. As a member of both communities, I have received scrutiny from fellow hunters over my ownership of tactical weapons. My response is always "well, I'm not going to defend my home with a bolt action .300 win mag." While I'm not the only one who enjoys a variety of shooting sports, it is clear that the firearms community is divided.

[Stickman]

you can argue that you're pro 2A and still support an AWB.

A- I see nothing in the Constitution limiting the citizens rights to defend themselves, their family, or this country.

B- I will no longer support RECOIL with that editor.

C- he tried to place the blame on HK instead of manning up.

D- If he would have stopped after the first paragraph, I could be more on board with your guys sentiments.

Not trying to chop your reply apart, just making it easier to reply by each point. People can argue they are for the 2nd Amendment, but if they take parts of it out, or restrict it, then they show themselves to be against it. They can't have it both ways. The 2nd A exists as a whole, not as pieces.

A- Agreed, the 2nd Amendment is very clear in that regard.

B- That seems to be a very common and catchy thing for people to say right now. If you feel that way, I don't see anyone as trying to dissuade you, certainly not here at least. Your opinion is as legit as that of anyone else. What I encourage people to do is be more than an echo of the internet with a mob mentality where everyone does/ says the same thing. If that is all you can think of, that is fine, but I would bet there is more. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, let me know.

C- I'll agree and disagree with this one. Its clear from your comment you've never dealt with HK, at least not in the same way some of us have. They are known to be extremely elitist, and what Jerry Tsai wrote sounds word for word like what I've heard before from HK. If you look at what he wrote in the rest of the article, or everything else he has written in RECOIL, it is obvious the one "slimy" section is unlike his style of writing. Does that excuse what was written, I'll agree and say no. Had he put it in quotes it would have been more accurate and HK would be taking all the heat for this, but he didn't.

D- What part aren't you on board with? Everyone here has been against what was said and has been very clear about it.... I'm missing the disconnect part here.

[Stickman]

I do not see him attributing those comments to HK until the slimy hands line. It reads to me that he is agreeing with them, and that he is trying to use the regurgitation of their talking points that he used to write the article as his scapegoat. Perhaps I am mistaken of his intent in the article, but I still believe that even if he was knowingly writing what HK's perspective is on the MP7A1 then he should have voiced his disagreement. Nonetheless, RECOIL has praised HK since issue 1. I guess I'm skeptical of his intent based on how I've interpreted the article.

Agreed on all accounts. Though I think him regurgitating HKs line is more important than people are commenting on. HK should be taking a slap in the face for what their rep was saying, and for what their reps have been telling LE & MIL for years. For some reason HK seems to get a pass, and many people look at them as some how being a mythical German firearm God that should be not bad mouthed.

ETA- Again, I think we are all saying the same thing here, just in different ways.

[tac40]

I appreciate everyones comments. This shows the influence of the social media and how quickly it can pile up on any issues. I hope this will resolve itself soon.

[FortTom]

I think all of this just proves that the divisivness of this issue, is pretty much the same as the divisiveness of every other issue du jour in the U.S. Granted, I understand this is not a uniquely U.S. forum, but if someone on one network pisses somebody off, there's an automatic "tweeter" or "facebook" boycott. I don't know where to tune my TV, because of all of the "boycotts". Now there's ripping of magazine pages and gnashing of teeth. I can imagine people snarling and ripping their shirts off like the incredible Hulk. Gun owners are not immune from this either. I live in an open carry state, I feel that if we don't use that right, that we'll lose it. But, it's not considered genteel among certain members of the shooting crowd here, and I've been chastised for it by avid shooters here, and they usually just get my standard response wich is not appropriate for repeating on this forum. But the point is that the gun community like every other is as divided and possibly self destructive as any other advocacy group.

That being said, although you all make valid points, I just read past the BS line about slimey hands, and the rest and finished the article. Then I began reading some of the other articles. I took the magazine in it's entirety to judge it's worth....I like it, and have since the first issue. One paragraph from a writer does not necessarily reflect that of all the contributers to RECOIL and I don't think that any form of apology including setting himself on fire while flinging himself off a tall building, would suit some of the readers. Jerry Tsai would have been better served just mentioning that H&K will never make the MP7A1 available to the general public, and went on. The guy just screwed up. I see a lot of knee-jerk reaction here, and a lot of folks saying cool down a bit and take a second look.

But in the long run, there's nothing new here. A lively debate, and a polite one at that, but nothing new here. Are you old enough to rember the "Ruger" Boycott, with Bill Ruger sort of falling in line with the 5 round magazine thing? People howling and barking at the moon, and declaring almost certainly Sturm Ruger was going to be boycotted straight out of business. They're still here. I don't know if RECOIL has that much staying power, I guess time will tell. But as a long time shooter/firearm enthusiast, I'll just write the whole thing off as a personal blunder by Tsai, and invite others to throw the first stone......

Respectfully,
FT

[Stickman]

Things continue to get worse for RECOIL with a response from HK, who was no doubt smart enough to verify there was no video in place, then make the following statement.




Some readers have misinterpreted a recent feature story in RECOIL magazine as a reflection of HK policy. Heckler & Koch has a long presence in the US civilian market and throughout that time has been an ardent and passionate supporter of the Second Amendment and the American civilian shooter. This will always be the case. The contents, opinions, and statements expressed in that feature story are those of the writer, not Heckler and Koch’s. Additionally, the writer and RECOIL magazine have issued a clarification and apology for the ill-chosen words used in the story.

The HK MP7A1 4.6 mm Personal Defense Weapon mentioned in the story is a selective-fire product (capable of “full automatic” fire) and is currently restricted to military and law enforcement agencies by BATF. HK-USA has previously researched introducing similar commercial products, chambered in 4.6 mm, but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.

— Heckler & Koch USA

[Stickman]

Things got even worse when the publisher released the following official statement:


In light of some of the comments and complaints made about a paragraph in a recent article about the Heckler & Koch MP7A1, Recoil wishes to make the following points clear:

· It is simply not credible for anyone to question Recoil’s support for, and commitment to, the Second Amendment. Recoil is first and foremost a gun lifestyle magazine, aimed at the modern shooting enthusiast.

· The opinions in the paragraph in question accurately reflected those of the manufacturer, and should have been reported as direct quotes. Recoil acknowledges the way the paragraph was written has caused unnecessary confusion.

· Jerry Tsai, a passionate gun enthusiast and the visionary behind Recoil magazine, will remain as editor of Recoil.

We thank you for your support and understanding.

Quite honestly, if you read the article, it was one paragraph that was actually quoted from the manufacturer and we did not state it that way. Recoil has 26,000 likes on face book and the magazine has only been out for three issues and issue number 4 is just hitting the streets. I honestly believe that this will not hurt the magazine. I have not lost anyone as a result of this and do not expect to.

Joe Galloway
Associate Publisher
5.0 Mustang & Super Fords
Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords
Phone 813-675-3493
Fax 813-675-3557
Email joe.galloway@sorc.com
Assistant: Jennifer Conklin 813-675-3507

I was sent this email either right before, or right after it was released through some friends in the manufacturing community. None of us understand how RECOIL is allowing things to continually take a turn for the worse.

The need to swallow pride and make changes, not tell the firearm community to go suck it.

[csmith]

I honestly believe that this will not hurt the magazine. I have not lost anyone as a result of this and do not expect to.

This doesn't jive with the earlier post containing numerous manufacturers pulling ads. I assume, given the previous two posts, HK and this publication will no longer be collaborating together.

[Stickman]

This doesn't jive with the earlier post containing numerous manufacturers pulling ads. I assume, given the previous two posts, HK and this publication will no longer be collaborating together.

Politics makes for strange bedfellows. RECOIL might be the scourge of civilization right now, but because they only publish 4 times a year, a lot of time will pass and things may very well change within a few issues.

I honestly believe there is a lot RECOIL can do to change things, it is all a matter of if and when they decide they need to. The current position seems to be rather concrete, which is fine as they are just getting their current issue out to people now. The last issue of RECOIL was VERY thick with advertisers, so they are sitting pretty still. Any crunch they might feel won't be for a few months. My guess would be a 20% loss in ads would be acceptable, and even a 40% would be something they could eat for a few months.

Alter the content a bit and include some high end clothing, boot companies, and outdoor gear, and ad revenue would increase quickly again.

[landshark]

Just for a metric in all of this SSD has put up a post ("http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/12/companies-who-have-dropped-advertising-with-recoil-magazine/') of the companies that have dropped advertising in RECOIL.

I think Stick is right though, give it some time, maybe a "new direction" and we will be seeing a new RECOIL mag in print soon enough.....unless they royally screw the pouch. I think at this point it would be in their best interest to either do nothing (i.e. no more statements, at least not till the next print) or make a statement to the effect that "yes, we messed up big and we are going to do X to make it back up".

[landshark]

Jerry Tsai has stepped down (http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/362227497189791) as the editor of RECOIL...

[Paulo_Santos]

Jerry Tsai has stepped down (http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/362227497189791) as the editor of RECOIL...

That's a shame. I don't like to see anyone lose their job, especially over something like this. I don't get how some people become borderline psychotic when someone threatens their right to bear arms, yet they don't see how they don't respect other people's freedom of speech. I guess as long as you completely agree with the right-wing gun nuts, you are ok.

[landshark]

Coward. I do realize how harsh that sounds, and that's exactly as I mean it. You say something people don't agree with. You realize the error and apologize. Then you bend over for, of all people, the idiots posting Facebook comments and quit? For what?

In all fairness I am willing to bet he was more or less voluntold to leave. Think about it, it was either admit what he said was full-retard or step down. They "tried" to say they were sorry, which failed and you don't need a Gallup poll to get a read that Jerry out off the team was what the community was calling for. So I am sure that who he reports to, no doubt in his best Bill Lumbergh voice, came down and asked him to not come in on Sunday...

[FortTom]

That's a shame. I don't like to see anyone lose their job, especially over something like this. I don't get how some people become borderline psychotic when someone threatens their right to bear arms, yet they don't see how they don't respect other people's freedom of speech. I guess as long as you completely agree with the right-wing gun nuts, you are ok.
I don't think it has as much to do with "right wing gun nut's" as you put it, but more of a fevered mob mentality. In fact your comments are more inflamitory than anything Jerry Tsai said. I don't think anyone got "psychotic" over anyone threatining thier rights to bear arms, as Tsai never did that.

I do think a bunch of closed mined "knee jerk" responses to an ill phrased paragraph, yes one paragraph of about two sentences, over reaction, and threats of boycots cost a good man his job. I regret the small mindedness of people to refuse to let the man apologize and retract his mistake, and explain himself, feel good now, if in this U.S. economy, they helped one more person become unemployed, and probably ruined his chances to ever find work in the firearms buisness again, feel proud, let out their petty self-assuring "hrmmmphs"
as they kick back in their recliners for the evening news.

I wish there was as much outrage and vitirol towards Barack Obama, and his proposed position to by-pass the U.S. Constitution altogether, and adhere to a U.N. Treaty to legislate gun laws in the U.S. Be proud of your (you know who you are) accomplishments. Now, answer this, do you think H&K really gives a big rat's ass about you? Think again.

Bravo!
FT

[Stickman]

I just spoke with the new or temp head of RECOIL, Jerry has stepped totally away from the magazine. He is no longer there in any capacity.

[Paulo_Santos]

I don't think it has as much to do with "right wing gun nut's" as you put it, but more of a fevered mob mentality. In fact your comments are more inflamitory than anything Jerry Tsai said. I don't think anyone got "psychotic" over anyone threatining thier rights to bear arms, as Tsai never did that.

FT

I've lived in NJ for most of my life, so I know what it is like to have vey little gun rights compared to other states. I've learned to live with the restrictions, but I can't wait to retire and move to a free state. I hope that when I retire there will be free states left. So I'm all for gun rights. Probably more than a lot of people. When I say right wing gun nut, I am referring to those close minded irrational idiots like the ones who posted on FaceBook, and not the average gun lover.

[TangoSauce]

That's a shame. I don't like to see anyone lose their job, especially over something like this. I don't get how some people become borderline psychotic when someone threatens their right to bear arms, yet they don't see how they don't respect other people's freedom of speech. I guess as long as you completely agree with the right-wing gun nuts, you are ok.

I think you should step down from this site's staff for making that comment.

[:D][:D][:D]

[mlosi762]

Well, the angry mob was screaming for Jerry's "blood" and they got it. Sounds like the press release from Joe Galloway only pissed people off more. I'm pretty sure he was voluntold to leave as Landshark had stated previously. Kind of jacked up for the publisher to defend his comments, to only dump him on the side of the road. To me that treatment is more offensive then Jerry's foot-in-mouth moment. Oh well, there's plenty of other gun magazines to read, RECOIL can kick rocks.

[FortTom]

I sent Recoil an email, saying pretty much what you said, and basically called them "cowards" for cowering to mob mentality, and asking them to prove they had some balls, and reconsider Tsai's "voluntary" departure. I seriously doubt that I'll get a response, in fact I'm pretty sure of it, mlosi762.

FT

[TangoSauce]

I think this whole 'mob' argument does not hold water. The argument that several of you are stating is that basically a bunch of ignorant gun owners are getting their panties in a bunch because they're on the internet. Perhaps you should consider that so many people are pissed off because they see people stating in RECOIL magazine that civilians should not own the MP7A1. It's a free market, and the market responded.

[mlosi762]

I think this whole 'mob' argument does not hold water. The argument that several of you are stating is that basically a bunch of ignorant gun owners are getting their panties in a bunch because they're on the internet. Perhaps you should consider that so many people are pissed off because they see people stating in RECOIL magazine that civilians should not own the MP7A1. It's a free market, and the market responded.

Let me try and clarify my stance. I never said anything about anyone being an ignorant gun owner. As a matter of fact, I too was pissed by what Jerry wrote in that article. What I'm saying is that some of the comments posted on Facebook and whatnot were completely out of line, people expressing their hatred and disgust in some really profane ways.

By not keeping their opinions civil, those individuals make us ALL look like crazed, gun-toting, waiting for the apocalypse, shoot 'em up types (exactly how the anti-gun community wants us to be portrayed). Differences in opinion can be expressed in a respectful way such as, "you know, I don't agree with your statement, and I'm no longer going to read your magazine..."

The posts (that I have read at least) by manufacturer/industry professionals who decided to pull advertising etc, where done in a civil manner. They explained their stance and gave the reasons for their decisions to no longer support RECOIL. Which they of course have every right to do so. However, I do believe that some of them may have only done so to appease their fans.

To try and sum it all up, the situation was handled poorly, from so many different angles. Jerry screwed up huge with that article, got an earful, and he apologized. Then HK (which I'm sure told Jerry to write that in the first place), threw him under the bus. Joe defended him, then he threw him under the bus as well. I've lost respect for both HK, RECOIL and it's publishing company. Even with Jerry gone, I think that irreparable damage has been done, and the future of RECOIL magazine is in question.

[Paulo_Santos]

Let me try and clarify my stance. I never said anything about anyone being an ignorant gun owner. As a matter of fact, I too was pissed by what Jerry wrote in that article. What I'm saying is that some of the comments posted on Facebook and whatnot were completely out of line, people expressing their hatred and disgust in some really profane ways.

By not keeping their opinions civil, those individuals make us ALL look like crazed, gun-toting, waiting for the apocalypse, shoot 'em up types (exactly how the anti-gun community wants us to be portrayed). Differences in opinion can be expressed in a respectful way such as, "you know, I don't agree with your statement, and I'm no longer going to read your magazine..."

The posts (that I have read at least) by manufacturer/industry professionals who decided to pull advertising etc, where done in a civil manner. They explained their stance and gave the reasons for their decisions to no longer support RECOIL. Which they of course have every right to do so. However, I do believe that some of them may have only done so to appease their fans.

To try and sum it all up, the situation was handled poorly, from so many different angles. Jerry screwed up huge with that article, got an earful, and he apologized. Then HK (which I'm sure told Jerry to write that in the first place), threw him under the bus. Joe defended him, then he threw him under the bus as well. I've lost respect for both HK, RECOIL and it's publishing company. Even with Jerry gone, I think that irreparable damage has been done, and the future of RECOIL magazine is in question.

Well said.

[mlosi762]

Well said.

Thank you Paulo. One of the reasons I like this forum so much is because disrespectful shit-talking, the likes of other forums and social media, isn't tolerated. I enjoy discussion and debate, but the second that differences in opinion come to nasty verbal blows, I shut down. WEVO members can agree to disagree, and that's how debates should play out. If someone disagrees, fine. But when someone starts dropping directional F-bombs, they can kiss their own fifth point of contact as far as I'm concerned. When the shit-storm began, the name calling quickly upset me more than the article that started it all.

What's really sad is that Jerry is professionally ruined. Over a comment, that he retracted and apologized for. And we have all at one time or another, suffered from diarrhea of the mouth. But for many people, the apology wasn't good enough.