My first question

[Steeles]

So as I've been researching what all i want in my first AR15 platform i've finally stumbled upon a question I'd like this boards advise on.

First I'll preface this by explaining my gials with the AR. I'm a recreational shooter. I've only been shooting for a couple of years now. I started shooting IDPA a little over a year and a half ago. So my plans for this first build is a rifle I can learn the platform with, train with, and eventually shoot some local tactical carbine and 2 gun idpa style matches (ZSA is near me and shoot near me)

Now having said that I also want to put one together something above just a basic carbine. (kinda buy once cry once theory in effect here, but there will be some compromises)

So in this ever evolving "what do I want" and due to my recent fondling of a couple carbines in the LGS I've turned my attentions to some of the free float rail systems. I'm not a huge fan of the way quad rails fit in my hand upon initial impression. So i've looked at a few of the modular systems. (samson evo rail and the various spin offs like Rainer and 556 tactical) Now onto my question, I was looking at the lengths of said systems and my question formed. I'm looking at doing a 14.5 barrel with pinned and welded comp/brake (which i'm undecided on and this question may influence that decision). If I install one of the 15" handguards will this length interfere with the comp/brake? in theory the rail would be half an inch past the start of the comp or brake. would doing this interfere with anything or should i step back to the 12.3" handguard (since there doesn't seem to be a 13.5" inch version available. (I think noveske waas the only 13.5 ince I saw?) And yes I'll admit aesthetics is playing a part here but they are secondary in the decision. function over form. But wanted you guys opinions on the function part. I plan to start assembling parts right after christmas. (one of my local ranges is opening a 300yd rifle range first of the year so I want to start getting ready :) )

thanks for your time

[UWone77]

Sounds like you're not sure which rail system you want. If I were you, I'd stick with a 16" barrel in case you decide to change out rails multiple times. It makes life easier on you if the brake is not pinned and welded. A 15" rail won't interfere with the comp. How much rail space do you really need? Do you have very long arms or is this purely an aesthetic thing for you? After sustained fire and use, you may realize looks are a far distance 2nd to comfort. Personally, I like Centurion Arms rails, and Rainier Evo 12" rails if I go with the tubular rails. I like the Noveske NSR rails as well, but if you have big hands they maybe too thin for you. You should also look at the upcoming Fortis rail.

[Steeles]

I guess it's not so much the rail space. as I said, i feel my hands are a bit on the small side for a true quad rail setup. it is more about the length for me, as of right now I have no plans for a lot of accessories. The condo I live in makes my pistol more logical for HD, so unless I go to a night class or match I don't even intend on a light (at this point, things change). I find carbine length handguards to short to be comfortable, I feel cramped on the rifle. I don't have really long arms (from shoulder to outstretched thumb tip 24") which on the last carbine I picked up had me grabbing just past the FSB with that kind of grip. So yeah probably the difference between the 12 and 15 handguard is gonna be cosmetic, as functionally i'm guessing for my use they are gonna be the same. and I do like the NSR rail, and it comes in the 13.5 length as well. I've debated the 16 vs 14.5 pinned a lot. the 16 would also make it easier to try different comps and or brakes to see what works best for me. then when I decide I can build another upper with the 14.5, the comp i decide and use the NSR... :) man i need cheaper hobbies.

[UWone77]

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

I'd get a 16" with the NSR or Rainier 12" EVO

Once you figure out what you like, build another upper with a 14.5 pinned with the comp of your choice. I always suggest 16" for the first one, it's just so much easier to swap out rails and comps rather than be stuck with something you don't care for... ask me about my DD 12" Lite and a PWS FSC556 sometime :D

[Steeles]

LOL problem is I swore to my wallet I was gonna do this ONCE! guess I'll have to buy a new wallet too.

[UWone77]

Yeah, I'm sure you're the only AR owner ever, who said you were only going to buy "once"

[RiverRat]

Sounds like you've answered your own question.

I'd get a 16" with the NSR or Rainier 12" EVO


For what it's worth, I purchased a Rainer 11" EVO to install over a 16" medium profile barrel for just these reasons (ease to try new rails, uses standard barrel nut, didn't want quad). I love the feel of the EVO rail - fit and finish are great. As smooth forearms go, it's on the "beefier" side - slightly larger outside diameter.

I wish I had purchased the 12" version, as recommended. With a Magpul MBUS folding front sight fixing my left hand position, I find my index finger sits exactly below the (mid length) gas block. I haven't had a heat problem yet, but I would have liked to avoid the problem and gotten a straighter left arm in a shooting stance. So I agree with the assessment above - go 12."

The guys at Rainer have treated me well, too - if that's of any concern when you're buying.

I also put a 12" Midwest Industries SS Gen 2 on a 14.5" pinned ultralight barrel when I was building a feather-weight.

The length that forearm is great - first two fingers support the barrel from beyond the gas block (with the same front sight and mid length gas system). I was looking for a super-light weight tube - it fit the bill. Some won't like the very small outside diameter (both grip and heating from the barrel), but I think it's a good setup for this particular carbine. That family of forearms might be worth a look if you're really concerned about your hand size and want something really slim. And as UWone77 says, that upper is pretty much a fixed unit now.

Good luck.

[Steeles]

hhah and I'm not even an owner yet! there is a gun show this weekend. I'm hoping to wander and at least put my hands on a few different models to try and get a better feel. and if people are being reasonable with the price at least snag a lower to get started on.

[rob_s]

"buy once, cry once" is a fallacy. How can you possibly know what you want/need with no trigger time? Hands on at a gun show will tell you almost nothing. It's almost a given you will get everything wrong once, so you're better off getting it wrong for less. Don't fall victim to muzzle brakes, fancy triggers, and other crutches.

Your goal should be to buy the least expensive firearm that will run reliably. You can't learn anything if the gun don't run. I recommend a Colt 6720 and a bunch of ammo.

[Steeles]

Good points Rob, I guess I could clarify the hands on at the gun show comment. I meant that as far as how I hold the rifle. I know it's not trigger time and that will influence final decisions. but as far as getting into a comfortable stance and grip on the weapon, I can get a better feel. as I said a typical LGS car bones carbine with carbine handguards (like the Sig M400 I handled at Wal Mart couple seeks ago) getting the rifle into my shoulder and cheeked up feels very cramped on my support hand. My friends AR (the only one i've ever fired) felt better with it's rail on it. (except the quad rails feel way too fat in my hand). So unfortunately the gun show is the best chance I get to hold a variety of rifles, the LGS around here all have the same rilfes it feels. the sig M400 looks and feels like the bushmaster that feels like the wyndham weapons which feels like the M&P..etc etc.

But I get what your saying, as far as what I want/need in the rifle I'm throwing my best guess at it. I'm taking recommendations from this board (the explain your AR thread is great for this) and others. seeing what people change, what they don't. gives a good sense of the value if 90% of the board has one of something.

and yeah I'm starting to collect ammo in anticipation of learning the system :)

[rob_s]

I'm only telling you this after wasting thousands of dollars myself, and watching literally hundreds of other people over the last decade do the same thing. What most find is that yes, they wind up with preferences after all that time, but the crap that we thought mattered before the pop (the "pop" being the sound of our heads popping out of our asses) just doesn't really matter at all. Focusing on the fundamentals with a bare bones carbine is exponentially more beneficial than chasing around after AR Nirvana.

I myself have considered selling off all of the ridiculous new hotness that's clogging up my safe and never going to the range and just buying a pair of 6720s and starting over.

It took spending a year with an AK, and going it right, for me to really solidify this, or begin to plant the seeds anyway. I started with a basic AK and went and took a class. That gave me some insight into what I needed to change, which turned out to be different than what I thought I wanted to change before that. You want to talk about a cramped forend, spend some time with an AK!

Getting the basic carbine gets you into the club. Matches, classes, etc. Better than standing around in a living room, or at a gunshow, or at the static range, is getting a chance to try out other people's stuff in a more active environment.

I don't honestly expect you to take my advice. People rarely do. But I get emails from people about once a week who say "you know what, I should have listened to you years ago when you first told me to start simple and slow".

[Stickman]

Its cool in some circles to say all the upper end stuff is crap and not needed. It is cool in other circles to only have top of the line gear. To think upper end brakes, triggers, or rails are crutches is simply imbecilic. To think you have to have them is also imbecilic. To understand what you need.... that is what counts.

What you need, are able to use, or will even like is going to be a matter of personal preference. In some cases the experiences of others is a giant help, at other times it can be the polar opposite of what is helpful. There is no one answer.

[rob_s]

I believe there IS one answer if your goal is to become a proficient shooter, and that is not to rely on equipment to attempt to mask voids in your skillset. For all but the best of shooters, brakes, triggers, and other items of the like ARE crutches. and even then I have found virtually no one who can actually quantify how these items improve their shooting by reducing time or group size. If you can't quantify it, it doesn't exist. When someone tells me "oh, this trigger allows me to shoot tighter groups" or "this brake allows me to shoot faster", but can't tell me how much tighter or how much faster, that opinion is useless. It may make that one individual person happy, but that's the extent of that.

Start with a basic item, learn to use it, use it a lot, and determine what changes and upgrades YOU need based on your experience, application, and budget.

If your goal is to own items to impress, then all of the above goes out the window. Check out a picture thread and buy whatever you see in the most recent few pages so everyone will oooh and aaah and congratulate on your fancy new door stop.

[Steeles]

I look at things like the "explain your AR" thread like this. You know how they say opinions are like a$$holes.... well when all the a$$holes agree a product is reliable, est bang for the buck, top of the class or whatever I take note. BCG by BCM? in the months I've lurked here and other forums never heard a complaint. so under BCG for my build guess whats scribbled in on that line. not because I think it'll make me a better shooter, but because when i start sending rounds down range, learning, teaching myself to BE a better shooter I want to know my stuff works. And yeah I'm still kicking around the idea of buying a complete rifle instead for that same reason. just grab one and go shoot it, but with something so personalize-able like an AR that's hard for me to do. might it put me behind the curve? possibly. but thats why i come on here to see whats been working for you guys with more experience. I'm not trying to throw the kitchen sink at the thing. (kinda weird to say since I started this thread asking about rail lengths lol ) heck my original plan was was MOE midlength handguards on a 16" barrel, but I was looking at complete rifles and so man of the "3gun" or built for competition rifles feature something like the samson rails I mentioned I looked into them. Not because I think they will make me better but if that's eventually where my focus with the rifle will be, why not check them out? use them as a guide. I don't plan on hanging a lot of accessories off the rifle. don't need/have no desire for quad rail type space on it. and that style seems to be a balance between full on tactical rails and KISS MOE style handguards. And no my goal isn't to impress anyone, I don't have the cashflow for that. if i did we wouldn't be having this conversation, I'd be all up in the picture thread like "ooh look at ME!!!" LOL for now, i'm here trying to figure out the best way to start getting some lead downrange :)

[Steeles]

Hey guys, didn't want to start a new thread so I'm updating this one. well with the crazy political climate and all the panic buying I found myself not finding even a basic rifle. Had been watching a few places looking for something decent to pop up that wasn't charging triple or even double. I was about to give up on my plans and buy a new camera instead (and had I found this deal I'm looking at for a Nikon D600 last week it would be mine!). but happened to be checking Armslist and found a gentleman selling a built rilfe, good quality parts list and asking a reasonable price. he even came down on the price after i asked about not taking a couple of the things he had on the rifle (light, and sling) and then gave me the sling anyway and an extra magazine too!

So I ended up with a 16" middy, LW barrel 1/8 twist.
it's a Stag lower with a Mega upper, ARFCOM ionbonded BCG, BCM Mod 5 charging handle, VLTOR A5 buffer kit with an Magpul MOE stock. DD QD endplate, and has an Ergo grip (not digging the finger grooves, they don't line up with where I wanna hold the rifle so I'll be replacing that soon, kinda like how I don' tlike the A2 grip), and a Spikes battle trigger (the NiB coated one), a Samson evo rail (11") and an AAC flash hider (non mount version). I'll put a picture up soon as I break out the camera. I'm waiting on a set of sights and just got back from the LGS with 200rounds to get me started.