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View Full Version : Mk 12 Mod 0 clone "After Action" and some Q's



LanceCriminal
3 January 2013, 08:43
Over a year ago, I made a post about a Mk12 Mod 0 I had built with a side-charging upper. When I first took it to the range, I was having issues with the bolt not going all the way home, and since the side-charger had no forward assist, I was stuck. Fast forward, and I replaced the upper with a standard BCM with F/A. I also finally decided to get a suppressor, so the side-charger also needed to go for that reason.

I *finally* got out to a good range, Best of the West in Tx. While it meant driving 25+ hours with a pregnant wife and 2 small dogs, it meant I had a chance to actually use the rifle as intended. Here are a few observations:

1) The bolt still was not chambering all the way. A little troubleshooting found that it only does this if I use the bolt release. If I rack the charging handle all the way back, it chambers properly. I started out with c-products 20-round mags, and to be all scientific, I tried with Magpul gen2 30 rounders, and a Lancer L5 mag. It didn't matter if the mags were full, half loaded, just 5 rounds, etc.

The Mk12 upper is currently on an LMT defender lower with SOPMOD stock, and a newly dropped in Geissele SSA-E. I used Federal XM193 and Black Hills Blue Box 223 77grn. Could having a carbine buffer/spring be causing the bolt not to seat all the way? I had no short strokes, or any failures of any sort aside from the first round chambering issue. This lower is also used with a BCM 16" m4 upper, so I would like to make sure that any adjustments made to work with the MK12 will still run the M4 properly. The MK12 bolt is a Young's M16 National Match chrome BCG and chrome bolt.

2) Spotters are important: The day I was at the range, weather began to significantly affect our ability to figure what was going on down range. The day started as 42 F, 3-4 mph cross wind, overcast and decent visibility. I was able to get my "qual", 3 hits on a steel plate @ 500yds within 5 rounds using 55gr Fed XM193. Even with the RSO and his 40+ magnification spotting scope, who turned out to be a great help that day, we could barely tell most of the time when I hit the plate. It was too quiet to hear, the plate didn't shift, and the splash was almost negligible. Due to a dark dirt berm, we also couldn't see puffs or impacts in the berm most of the time. A shift in visibility rolled in, and soon you could barely see the 1000yd and 750yd plates, and 500yds was getting iffy. I switched up to the 77gr, and the same issue of sometimes seeing hits, sometimes not still persisted. Folks with 308's had no such issues smacking the plates around and seeing their impacts, just me and my little mouse gun ;)

3) Eyepro: I learned some valuable lessons. First was that the eyepro I had really messed with my ability to get a cheekweld and would fog up from my breathing. Fortunately, the RSO allowed folks to pull up their eyepro if needed when on the scope, and agreed that if anything bad went down it was on them. I was fine with this, and this helped out on the fogging issue. Does anyone know of some eyepro that can help prevent fogging and still let you get a good cheekweld with proper eye relief?

4) Homework!: The RSO pointed out some homework I needed to do before I head out there again. I had not looked up my scope's subtentions for the mil-dot reticle (Bushnell 4200 Elite, 3-12 FFP Mil-Dot illum). The scope is mil dot, mil adjustment but I did not know the size of the mil dot, distance between centers, etc. I've found some documentation from Bushnell, but am still seeking more granularity on the issue. Next up was my ammo selection. I was using the Federal 193, blue box BH 77, and also brought Fed GMM 77grn. The thing I had not done was build any ballistics charts with the drops or wind adjustments. Since then, I went internet digging and have found a number of resources between web apps and Android apps I can use, with some decent baseline data for the factory ammo. Obviously if I really want to get out to 750yds (my goal) I will need a lot of practice, good data on my ammo, and a good spotter. I also need to work on my prone position with a bipod. I never have liked using benches or rests, mostly because I want to be able to shoot the same way whether there is a convenient rest or not. I had no experience previously using rifles with bipods, only the standard Marine Corps qual stuff with an A2. I'm now looking for tips in terms of shooting positions and stuff I can practice at home while dry-firing.

The biggest conclusion I made was that I really need to stop lollygagging and move back to Texas, because that was the most fun I've had in a long time and was the best range I'd ever used. I'd also love to find an entry level precision rifle class, however I currently have time and budgetary constraints due to an incoming baby mid-June. I came away satisfied with my rifle and equipment, not feeling like I need to go and spend piles more money fixing things that can be remediated with practice and training. I do feel like the rifle can shoot better than I can, and am eager to catch up and be able to shoot to its full potential. Oh, and the SSA-E trigger was sex.

I also came away seeing why the Mk12 evolved to the Mod 1. I built a Mod 0 based on how it looked, I will be honest that from the first time I saw it I liked it much better than the Mod 1 or similar spinoffs. Still, I can recognize why changes were made, such as the ARMS 40 rear sight preventing the scope from coming far enough back using the "spec" medium height ARMS rings, the SOPMOD stock making it so I basically was nose-to-charging handle, and the rifle being overall heavy. If I were to stick to the 18" barrel and rebuild it, Id just go with a 15" Geissele SMR rail, which would come nearly flush with the SPR/M4 can (when the stamp comes), get some Larue, Badger, or Bobro QD rings, and call it a day. Depending on price shenanigans I may get another lower just for it some day and transfer my A1 stock over to it. But in the mean time, I'm leaving it just the way it is.



Unless I find a cheap ARMS 40L rear sight....

Stickman
3 January 2013, 13:56
Very nice, sounds like a good time. One of these days I need to hit up a SPR course myself.

duc748s
5 January 2013, 10:20
Sounds like a great road trip. I would love to do some of those. If you do it again and need a travel buddy I'd be game....but I might not come back :-) BTW - what were the android apps you were using?

On a side note - would you have been able to use 856 rounds at that range? I would think the tracer round would help out in this situation.

LanceCriminal
6 January 2013, 08:54
BotW does not allow tracer or AP ammo. There have been droughts there and I am fairly certain they do not want to repeat 2011's grass fire season. The visibility dropped of really bad as the day moved on, by 4ish it was spitting on the rifle and was almost full blown fog.

I did not use an Android app while i was out there, but I started trying the free version of Strelok, and am eyeballing one called "Shooter" that has good reviews over on Sniper's Hide and elsewhere for around $10. I feel like I can't really get serious about this right now, as much as I want to, thanks to unsat range selections in NOVA and not really having the space to start hand loading. I feel like nowadays I have more fun planning rifles I'd love to build and tinkering with the ones I have since I only get to the range about once or twice a year. And the current buying panic is not helping me finish my SBR, or the hunting AR I wanted to build. Or the dedicated lower for the MK12, or the bolt gun I'd like to have, or the Garand I want, or..... the list goes ever onwards.

duc748s
6 January 2013, 10:57
Yea, I kind of figured that trace ammo would be a no go. Ranges that let you use them are getting almost non existent now. I feel your pain...NJ, at least down by me, has like one or two ranges available and they come with hefty range fees. I guess they want you to "join" their club. I have access to Ft Dix range, but it always seems that there are hurricane force cross winds there. lol I was leaning towards a .308 build originally, but now I'm thinking of doing a 6.8 for hunting. So I totally get the fun in planning rifles and it is enjoyable. All we can do is wait for more stock to become available, I think (and hope) the initial buying panic has subsided (or people ran out of money). I guess we'll see by the end of the month or so. But thanks for the tips on the software...I'll have to check them out

gatordev
6 January 2013, 15:43
Quick app review for you duc...

I had previously downloaded KAC's app and Ballistic Pro (or whatever it's called) for my iPhone. I had only really messed with it out to maybe 200m for my SPR-ish and didn't have substantial ballistic data other than what's built in to judge it. I then attended a Magpul SPR class and we were all told to download Shooter. We resolved our ballistic data through range and not a chrono, but once I had my velocity set to match what my bullet was doing at the edge of effective range, it was spot on during the class and after. Meanwhile, I went back and compared the KAC app and Ballistic to see if they were on the same page and they were significantly off. I had to adjust my MV to get the numbers to be close, and then they didn't match Shooter entirely. This was with MK 262 (well, the blue box version, but still pretty much the same).

Obviously, if you adjust the MV and any of the three apps still work, then you're good, but I found that Shooter worked for me with another load (Southwestern Ammo's version of 262, which is much hotter) right out of the box and the interface is pretty simple (as is KAC's, which is nice as well).

Hatter
7 January 2013, 05:48
Can you clarify the shooter app? There are waaaay too many apps out there.

I'm finding one called "Shooter (Ballistics Calculator)" by Sean Kennedy Sports which I assume is the one you are referring to but it didn't come up when I did a simple "Shooter" search.

Thanks

LanceCriminal
7 January 2013, 11:47
The Sean Kennedy one is the Shooter I had seen referenced. I have an android phone (Samsung Charge) so that was the one I was leaning towards. When I searched "Shooter" that's the one that comes up.

http://sean.kndy.net/shooter/

Another program some of us stumbled across a number of years back was "Shooter Ready". They have a flash-based demo online, it was quite fun learning how to do the ranging using mil dots, looking up the adjustments on the range card, doing the wind calculations, etc and trying to get a first round hit. Obviously doing it with a real scope and real targets of varying sizes can't be 100% substituted, but it's at least something to get the brain thinking in the right habits.

Has anyone tried Silver State Armory's 77gr ammo? They claim 2750 fps from a 16" 1/7 twist, so in an 18" that should be pretty darn close to Mk 262.

- Gatordev, was the Blue Box you used the 77gr .223 or was it 5.56 loaded?

gatordev
8 January 2013, 11:47
The Sean Kennedy version was what I was referring to.

The Blue Box was Black Hills remanufactured and is labeled as .223. I was thinking the MK262 was .223, but now that you ask and I think about it, I guess that wouldn't make sense.

This was the stuff: http://www.outdooroutfitters.com/black-hills-ammunition-m223r9.aspx

LanceCriminal
10 January 2013, 16:32
That's what I was using as well. I have heard mixed #'s as far as the MV people were getting from 18" rifles, seems I should be expecting around 2615 FPS. I was looking around to see what the best "bulk" heavy grain match ammo I could get until I someday get reloading equipment, looks like BH Blue box, Prvi Partizan 75gr and Silver State 77gr are all good choices. I guess the big thing with the 5.56 is trying to keep enough velocity to make sure it stays supersonic out to how far you are shooting.

I wish I had pictures, all I have is a cell phone video that is really big, and I'd prefer to edit it down a bit to cut out all the chatter between me and the range officer.

duc748s
11 January 2013, 08:16
Thanks for the apps review. First hand knowledge is the best review. I take it that Shooter is well worth the price then, it's only $10 if I remember correctly. I was messing with Strelok and looking at ballistic data, if the manufacture gives you the correct data and you have the same equipment yourself, I can see how it would need to be adjusted. A Chrono of the particular ammo you run would be needed at a minimum for a base line. But you're saying with Shooter you can get close with just ranging? correct? If so that is pretty good for us shooters without a chrono at the moment.

Sorry for the late reply...I got that damn flu/cold thing going around. First time I got sick in ~ 10 years..if not longer. And I had a flu shot this year....

gatordev
11 January 2013, 08:20
We ran our guns out to 630 meters (getting close to the edge of transonic flight) and resolved the MV with the software, so I can't say what I came up with for MV is what it actually was doing, but the numbers worked at all the various ranges in between. With a 18" Noveske barrel, I was getting 2615 fps for the Blue Box.

Also, don't rule out Southwestern Ammo. They've upped their prices recently, so it may not be quite the deal that it was, but they sell 77gr SMKs as well. I've found their load was hotter than the Black Hills (can't remember the MV off the top of my head).

LanceCriminal
11 January 2013, 09:06
I will take a look at them as well, thanks!

So another question then, anyone used the Larue sling that attaches to the bipod?
http://www.laruetactical.com/optimized-sniper-sling

It seems like it would be a good fit for an SPR type rifle. I am not a bench rest kind of guy, I prefer more practical shooting positions, although I don't just avoid using stable rests where available. Looking at the sling I see it wouldn't be the fastest thing in the world, but for the purpose of a precise rifle or carbine it seems it has a use.

duc748s
21 January 2013, 05:05
I heard good things about Larue slings, never used them though. I always have been partial to MS2 sling, currently using an MS3, ever since my last deployment. People hate on the 1 point, but I loved it while patrolling. The ability to switch to 2 point when needed quickly is great. Wouldn't you be more partial to the Tactical Trigger Snap sling for your needs? or so you have a BiPod?

LanceCriminal
21 January 2013, 12:18
The one I linked attaches to the bipod legs, so I guess it not only tensions the legs, but stabilizes everything. If it works anything like the "loop sling" we used to make to qual with the M16, then I'm all over it. While the loop sling is slow to deploy and use, it really does help stabilize things from the prone. I'd love to try the Larue OSS but my budget is kinda poof now. Just found out we are having a girl in 4.5 months, so I got my work cut out for me!

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I swapped the Ergo Deluxe grip off my old POF lower, and it really works well for the DMR/SPR type gun. It was really comfy and helped me get good finger placement thanks to the fat palm swell. If I ever build a designated lower for this thing, I'll definitely move it over to the new lower. That, and I think I might try and get a Vltor A5 buffer system for it, hopefully that will help with the weak chambering issue since it was designed for rifle uppers and collapsible stocks. Any thoughts?

LanceCriminal
10 February 2013, 15:32
Oh, and why talk about a Mk12 Mod 0 clone without pics! Sorry, just picked up the can the other day so I went pic crazy. Can't wait to get back down to Texas so I can get some range pics and vid of it with the can on! Oh, and did I mention I wish I was a proper gear porn photographer?

http://imageshack.us/a/img39/3086/sprprofile.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/4568/sprfrontcan.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img51/5564/sprcan.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/7320/sprwithsprm4off.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img18/9301/sprcanoff.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img46/9929/sprbusinessend.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img600/6198/sprtoys.jpg

csmith
10 February 2013, 15:47
Wow, that's about as clone as you can get. Good job. I'd take pictures in a different place next time, wouldn't want them trying to ban assault ironing boards. [BD]

LanceCriminal
11 February 2013, 12:38
Haha, yeah I don't have any fancy lighting or backgrounds. It was the easiest way to get the rifle at tripod level to help make sure it wasnt wiggly when I tried the macro setting. I think Stick ought to do a "Tactical Photography Course", complete with mindset, equipment, and prac-ap portions. Folks charge thousands for carbine courses, why not one for firearms photography?