How Much Accuracy ?

[Eric]

Several weeks ago I was reviewing the equipment requirements for a scoped rifle class that was geared toward the patrol Officer. This was not a SWAT sniper/marksman course; rather training that would give the patrol Officer/Deputy/Trooper skills to utilize magnified optics on the road. An MOA capable rifle and match ammunition were required for the class, which didn't really make sense to me. Most patrol rifles with chrome lined rack grade barrels are roughly 3 MOA capable.

This got me thinking. How much accuracy do most of us need for a patrol/defensive rifle? I was shooting at a private range today and again this topic presented itself. I was shooting a 16" carbine with an Aimpoint PRO, FF barrel, USGI type trigger, 55 gr ball ammo. I was shooting off an improvised rest from a bench and emptied the 20 round mag into a group of 4 targets at 50 yards. The hits were all within the 2" ten ring dot.

(crappy cell phone pic)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/20130228_160712-1.jpg
A couple benches over was a guy with a nice Remington 700 in .22-250, big magnified optic, solid rest, obviously well developed hand-loads. He was killing dots at 100 yards with ease and I'm sure shooting sub MOA groups. During a target change, he showed me his groups, looked at mine and rolled his eyes. Whatever. I was happy with my results, given the the intended purpose of the carbine.

For those folks that deploy carbines for work, did your agency specify an accuracy requirement in the bid specs or is there any similar requirement for personally owned carbines? Do you have any personal requirement? I don't have a magic number, but if I can get head shots or fist sized center of mass hits at 100 yards I'm good. Just about any rifle I have has more intrinsic accuracy available than I can typically use.

[FortTom]

Funny you brought that up, I've been plagued with accuracy issues since my latest build. Let me preface, without a long story, that I've had two (dominant) right eye surgeries last year. Couldn't shoot worth a damn with the EOTech, the rcticle looked blurry. Sold it and got a burris MTAC and groups (I do reload, but this was factory 55gn ball - REM UMC). I was doing better about 3.5" or so at 100 yds. Finally gave up and sold MTAC and bought a 2.5 X 10 X 50. Haven't mounted it yet, hope too next week.

But my main point is what I think you pointed out. I'm shooting an off the rack LMT 16" barrel with factory ammo! Talk about a brain fart. For years I've pulled every trick in the book, or paid to have it done, to accurize my hunting rifles. Ammo was built 1/2 grain at a time, yeah the whole anal bit. I had a Weatherby action with a custom barrel and hand fitted aluminum bedded stock, titanium firing pin, etc..etc..that I guarantee a blind man could shoot 1" groups at 300 yards.

But all of this was pointless, because for so long I was hell bent on absolute accuracy. I should have figured it out. The 20 years as a G.I., except for short periods, I shot an issue weapon w/A2 sights, and with less than eagle eyes, groups were good enough.

On the bright side, I have P.E.P.R. QD mount, so I can go to BUIS pretty quick. And this gun is going to be my "shooter". Which, I mean all around carry rifle, plinker, crow scaring piece.

So, I think if your're shooting under 2" @ 100 unmagnified red dot with a stock barrel and factory ammo, that's damn good accuracy And if the guy with the 22-250 and his roll yer own ammo rolled his eyes at me, I think I might have stuck something in his.:mad:

FT

[Koshinn]

Several weeks ago I was reviewing the equipment requirements for a scoped rifle class that was geared toward the patrol Officer. This was not a SWAT sniper/marksman course; rather training that would give the patrol Officer/Deputy/Trooper skills to utilize magnified optics on the road. An MOA capable rifle and match ammunition were required for the class, which didn't really make sense to me. Most patrol rifles with chrome lined rack grade barrels are roughly 3 MOA capable.

This got me thinking. How much accuracy do most of us need for a patrol/defensive rifle? I was shooting at a private range today and again this topic presented itself. I was shooting a 16" carbine with an Aimpoint PRO, FF barrel, USGI type trigger, 55 gr ball ammo. I was shooting off an improvised rest from a bench and emptied the 20 round mag into a group of 4 targets at 50 yards. The hits were all within the 2" ten ring dot.

(crappy cell phone pic)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/20130228_160712-1.jpg
A couple benches over was a guy with a nice Remington 700 in .22-250, big magnified optic, solid rest, obviously well developed hand-loads. He was killing dots at 100 yards with ease and I'm sure shooting sub MOA groups. During a target change, he showed me his groups, looked at mine and rolled his eyes. Whatever. I was happy with my results, given the the intended purpose of the carbine.

For those folks that deploy carbines for work, did your agency specify an accuracy requirement in the bid specs or is there any similar requirement for personally owned carbines? Do you have any personal requirement? I don't have a magic number, but if I can get head shots or fist sized center of mass hits at 100 yards I'm good. Just about any rifle I have has more intrinsic accuracy available than I can typically use.

I'm mil, not le, but I'd say 2 moa with defensive ammo should be fine for personal weapons. The way I figure is at 300 yds, a 6" group will put rounds into someone's head or do good center of mass hits as well. Any further than 300 and my 10.5" & 14.5" ARs will start to majorly hurt on terminal ballistics, so moving to .308 would be a good idea.

This is for personal weapons, I don't have a choice on what I use at work. But for non-marksmen/snipers, I think 2 moa should be perfectly fine for le, especially since you're not even shooting that far in typical engagements, so 2 moa is like a 1" group.

[Paulo_Santos]

I've always placed a lot of importance on accuracy. Especially in LE where every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. For me, a standard off the rack AR should be able to shoot 2MOA (10 rounds) with good ammo. Whereas a sniper rifle should be 1MOA. Those are my standards.

Another mistake I also see is that some agencies use shitty ammo that is not the most accurate. There's plenty of good accurate ammo out there that should be used as the duty ammo. Leave the cheap ball ammo for training.

[FortTom]

I've always placed a lot of importance on accuracy. Especially in LE where every bullet has a lawyer attached to it. For me, a standard off the rack AR should be able to shoot 2MOA (10 rounds) with good ammo. Whereas a sniper rifle should be 1MOA. Those are my standards.

Another mistake I also see is that some agencies use shitty ammo that is not the most accurate. There's plenty of good accurate ammo out there that should be used as the duty ammo. Leave the cheap ball ammo for training.
Paul, the ammo thing can be a problem. Commercial ammo can change from lot to lot. Same with reloads. With a handload, when I find a mix (brass/primer/powder), that is balls out accurate, I try to buy as much as the same lot number as possible.
A person can buy a couple of boxes of "premium" ammo, and while the external ballistics, terminal ballistics might be ultra accurate in one weapon, and the next weapon in your arsenal, well it might not be worth a crap, as far as accuracy. This phenomenon can even occur with two consecutively serial numbered guns.

Myself, I don't expect that kind of accuracy out of my weapons, unless I started from the very beginning of the build.

FT

[Flatlander]

Practical accuracy, to me, is so much more important than "actual" accuracy - or benchrested accuracy - that I only very rarely pay attention to what the rifle is truly capable of. My everyday rifle - a 16" carbine with an Eotech used for coyotes and hogs and skunks and to make me feel comfortable on my daily rounds (I am not in law enforcement) is probably a 1.5" or 2" shooter at 100 yards if I scoped it and that is just fine. My 18" bipodded with Zeiss glass and a Geisselle trigger is probably a 0.75" shooter at 100 yards but to be honest, after spending the time to zero it some time back, its range time is mostly to check that the scope hasn't shifted zero.

It's a little off topic from what the original question was, but 99% of my range time is spent shooting steel gongs the size of the vitals area or smaller, depending on range, at ranges from feet to 300 yards, from field positions. I have only had one rifle in years that wouldn't meet my requirements of "practical" accuracy, and that was a Mini 14. When I miss in the field, almost every time the problem can be isolated - to my trigger finger.

[Paulo_Santos]

Paul, the ammo thing can be a problem. Commercial ammo can change from lot to lot. Same with reloads. With a handload, when I find a mix (brass/primer/powder), that is balls out accurate, I try to buy as much as the same lot number as possible.
A person can buy a couple of boxes of "premium" ammo, and while the external ballistics, terminal ballistics might be ultra accurate in one weapon, and the next weapon in your arsenal, well it might not be worth a crap, as far as accuracy. This phenomenon can even occur with two consecutively serial numbered guns.

Myself, I don't expect that kind of accuracy out of my weapons, unless I started from the very beginning of the build.

FT

I definitely understand where you are coming from, but over the years I found that there is some ammo that is generally accurate in most AR's. A perfect example is the Hornady 55 and 60 GR V-Max ammo. I haven't seen one AR that didn't like it. Obviously some liked it better than others, but for the most part, the accuracy was generally great. When I was shooting the 6.8, the Sierra 110 GR Soft Pojnts and Sierra 115 GR SMK shit great in every barrel I had.

But I agree that practical accuracy is what really counts. I just like go know that if I miss that it is my fault, not the ammo/weapon.

[Paulo_Santos]

Paul, the ammo thing can be a problem. Commercial ammo can change from lot to lot. Same with reloads. With a handload, when I find a mix (brass/primer/powder), that is balls out accurate, I try to buy as much as the same lot number as possible.
A person can buy a couple of boxes of "premium" ammo, and while the external ballistics, terminal ballistics might be ultra accurate in one weapon, and the next weapon in your arsenal, well it might not be worth a crap, as far as accuracy. This phenomenon can even occur with two consecutively serial numbered guns.

Myself, I don't expect that kind of accuracy out of my weapons, unless I started from the very beginning of the build.

FT

I definitely understand where you are coming from, but over the years I found that there is some ammo that is generally accurate in most AR's. A perfect example is the Hornady 55 and 60 GR V-Max ammo. I haven't seen one AR that didn't like it. Obviously some liked it better than others, but for the most part, the accuracy was generally great. When I was shooting the 6.8, the Sierra 110 GR Soft Pojnts and Sierra 115 GR SMK shit great in every barrel I had.

But I agree that practical accuracy is what really counts. I just like to know that if I miss that it is my fault, not the ammo/weapon.